MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - 「 B L U E M O N D A Y 」

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When do targeting and resolution for effects for permanents that say "As X enters the battlefield" happen on the stack? Do these effects count as ETB effects?

Effects like that are replacement effects which modify the way the permanent enters the battlefield. Replacement effects do not use the stack, cannot be responded to, and don't target. They just happen as part of the permanent entering.

In this case, Alhamsandwich has each opponent reveal their hands, and you choose the name of a nonland card revealed that way, all as part of it entering. They can't respond to this; their last chance to respond is to cast spells or activate abilities in response to Alhamsandwich, the spell, before it begeins to resolve.

Let's say I'm controlling my opponents turn via Emrakul, if I cast Torrential Gearhulk, flashing back Unlicensed Disintegration targeting the Gearhulk, will my opponent take 3 damage?

Assuming that's their only artifact, no. Whether or not the Disintegration's controller controls an artifact is checked as it resolves, immediately after the destruction effect. So, at that time they no longer control their Gearhulk, which means they'll only take 3 from their own Disintegration if they control another artifact.

Thanks, that's what I figured. Just one more question:
My Opponent controls a Bristling Hydra, and chooses to activate its pay 3 energy ability, am I able to respond with a Grasp of Darkness in response to the cost being paid before its gets the +1/+1 counter & hexproof?

Yes. The "Put a counter on me and I get Hexproof until end of turn" doesn't happen until the ability resolves. It has to go onto the stack, and can be responded to, so you can blast it with Grasp in response.

Good to know I didn't cheese out my opponent yesterday. Sadly our judges were not at the game day yesterday so we had to use our best rules knowledge. Thanks again.

Do you think the new "partner" commander will share a commander tax? As the rules are now i think theyre taxes would be seperate but that seems unfair to me.

Did you read the mechanics article?
magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/commander-2016-mechanics-2016-10-24

Oops. Sorry all no i did not read the article. Thanks user

for delirium effects would an artifact creature like narnam cobra count as both an artifact and a creature or would it count as a separate thing? also doe vehicles count towards delirium or is that a subtype?

Artifact Creatures count as both Artifacts and Creatures, therefore 2 out of 4 for Delirium. Vehicles are only a subtype and only count as Artifacts for Delirium.

good to know. what about flip cards, for example atumnal gloom or startled awake, do they count as both or just whatever they go into the graveyard as?

Okay I just had a game at my LGS and basically we spent ages playing draw go until shit kicked off, and my opponent just could not into stack so far as I understand it.

>I have a Thing in the Ice down with 1 counter on it, and 3 Dynavolt Towers just to fuck things up more, and a Jace emblem just got shits
>Opponent has 4 Kozilek's Return in the yard and a couple guys down

I finally decide to break the stalement, and here's what followed:
>I cast Anticipate, announcing my Tower and Thing triggers
>Opponent lets the Tower triggers resolve, then responds by sacrificing a creature to cast Elder Deep-Fiend
>At this point I announced my emblem trigger to counter his first spell
>He lets Elder Deep-Fiend get countered, then announces Kozilek's Return
>Tell my opponent that they should've triggered at the same time as my emblem triggered
>He just doesn't understand
>Whatever, I intend to respond to the Kozilek's Return triggers with another Anticipate to remove the Thing's last counter and force him to burn 2 Returns while bouncing his shit
>Opponent says Kozilek's Return will do 5 damage and puts the card in exile, giving me a chance to respond
>Whatever, I cast another Anticipate and announce my Thing and Tower triggers
>Opponent pulls me up and says the Thing should have no counters on it right now because it should've been removed when I cast the FIRST Anticipate
>Tell him that the counter is only removed when the ability resolved and he's doing all of this in response
It wasn't even a new player, it's someone who's been playing longer than me. Standard is going to be hell. I would've thrown my hand up instantly for a judge if it was a judged event.

Flip Cards only count the front face while they are in any zone except the battlefield. So for example if you have Scrounged Scythe on the field and that goes to the graveyard, it will be Harvest Hand, an Artifact creature, in your Graveyard.

Another example is that Grizzled Angler can't be grabbed by Coax from the Blind Eternities because it isn't an Eldrazi, despite transforming into Grisly Anglerfish which is an Eldrazi.

Mechanics article said their taxes are separate.

Both- it counts all card types among all your graveyard cards; if a card has multiple types, it can contribute them all. You could technically have Delirium online with just two cards.

"Vehicle" is not a card type, but a subtype. There's 8* card types: Artifact, Creature, Enchantment, Instant, Land, Planeswalker, Sorcery, and Tribal. Anything to the right of the dash on the typeline is a subtype, and anything on the LEFT is either a Type or a Supertype. Delirium only counts Types.

The back face of DFCs literally does not exist in zones that aren't the battlefield.

So, what should've happened is you should have announced the order of your triggers. Then he flashes in Deep Friend, and triggers your Emblem and his Returns, which go on the stack in AP/NAP order. If it was your turn, I could see an argument for either out-of-order sequencing and let him have his Return triggers, or tell him he lost his triggers. Probably OOOS.

But he was so adamant about thinking that the Thing's last counter should have evaporated the instant my first Anticipate went on the stack! He was even telling me that it's removed "When" I cast it, as if he couldn't comprehend that "When" means the ability goes onto the stack and waits to resolve, then does as much as the ability can.

I'm going to have to put up with this for a fucking year until cast triggers suck a fat fucking dick and rotate out.

Yeah, the problem there isn't on-cast triggers, it's that your opponent doesn't understand how triggers work in the first place.

I think it's just that the triggers are happening in a non-ETB order that's screwing with the people at my LGS. Can you make me an honourary judge so I can tell people to shut up? :^(

>flip cards only count as the face card in all non-battlefield zones
so does that mean when persistant nightmare bounces back to hand it becomes startled awake again? I really like mill mechanics. is there a viable modern or standard deck I could build on the cheap utilizing this?

Technically you can't just tell people to shut up even if you're a certified Judge. Just having passed a test doesn't make me right.

It'd be really bad if it was Persistent Nightmare in your hand, since it'd be stuck there without a Show and Tell effect.

>show and tell effect
I'm a scrub, could you please elaborate? I just assumed that if it went back to your hand as persistant nightmare that iw would just be a no cost 1/1 you can plop down again and again.

>No cost
And there's the problem. It doesn't have a mana cost of 0. It has a mana cost of "does not exist". You can't pay a cost that doesn't exist- that's why you have to Suspend (or cascade into) the cards like Lotus Bloom and Hypergenesis, rather than just cast them for free; because they don't cost {0}, they cost {NULL}.

>Just having passed a test doesn't make me right
I'm fairly sure that it does in its own way. If someone can prove a judge wrong then go for it, but for all intents and purposes, the judge is the law.

Nah- I'm just an educated interpreter. I absolutely can be, and have been, HILARIOUSLY wrong about something. Being a Judge doesn't automatically make me right, just like NOT being a Judge doesn't automatically make someone else wrong. More likely to be right than an average person? Maybe, but not automatically right. I'm human, too.

>I'm human, too
Respect LOST.

What'a the weirdest situation you've run into judging a game of Magic?

"I accidentally shuffled my hand into my opponent's deck".

how? were they both using the same exact sleeves or no sleeves? what are the rulings on "accidentally" shuffling when it's not called for?

Exact same sleeves.

Player A cracked a fetch to nab a land, saying what they would get, and casting a spell (just a shortcut). Player B cracked a fetch to respond, and paused to check their hand to see what shock to find mid-shuffle, when Player A handed the deck over for a cut. Player B accidentally shuffled his hand into Player A's deck during said shuffle, because he didn't realize it was still in his hand.

Happily, though their sleeves were identical, their decklists were very much not, so I was able to piece together what cards should not have been in the deck and put them back into Player B's hand.

glad there was a happy ending. still want to know how shuffling when there's nothing triggering a shuffle is ruled though. is it considered outright cheating or is it something you can do if your opponent allows it? I would assume it's cheating considering there's mechanics that place cards at the top or bottom of a deck.

Well, there was a reason for them to shuffle. They just did it wrong.

If you shuffled your deck when nothing told you to, it'd depend on what led to it. Most of the time it'd just be a GRV with a Warning, but if I suspect you were doing it to gain an advantage, knowing that you can't legally just shuffle on a whim, THAT is Cheating.

Cheating requires three things: for you to be intentionally doing something illegal, for you to KNOW that you're doing something wrong, and for you to be attempting to gain advantage by doing so. If you don't know that what you're doing is against the rules, or you did it on accident, it's not Cheating (for example, casting a Doom Blade off of 2 Plains because you thought you'd left up 2 Swamps; that's not cheating, that's just a mistake)

I can't imagine this being an issue unless they both have the exact same sleeves.

If I Mindslaver somebody in a commander game and I get the option to exile his commander during his turn (that I control), do I also get to make the choice whether he'll be put into the command zone or is the choice impervious to such effects?

You make all choices that the controlled player would make.

Whether or not to put their Commander in the Command Zone instead of where it's going is such a choice.

My opponent has a sylvan library and a reforge the soul. Is there a way he can wheel with library triggers on the stack, or does he have to wheel before library can do anything?

Absolutely. By drawing Reforge for their Draw Step draw, they trigger Miracle. Miracle and Library both want to put their triggers on the stack at the same time, after SBAs are checked in the Draw Step. Since your opponent controls both triggers, they can put the triggers on the stack in whatever order they like; meaning they can Library and then Wheel, or Wheel and then Library.

Why are Wizards and players autistic about pile shuffling when false riffle shuffles are at least 70 years old and virtually undetectable even to expert observers? "Real" magic players have been cheating at cards a lot longer than MagicTM players. At least pile shuffle cheats like double nickel are blatantly obvious to anyone that isn't literally blind.

Because the only way to actually prevent people from cheating on the shuffle is to have a judge or other third party do the shuffle. For every single shuffle.

So they take the low hanging fruit and pretend there's nothing else to do.

Not specifically a rules question, but any idea why they didnt make tribal a supertype?

Because supertypes can't have subtypes.

Bump.

If an opponent counters my spell and I flip the table, look him dead in the eye and tell him to kill himself during a FNM game at my LCS, is that disqualifiable?

Very!

Hey gA long time no see!

If I attach an Equipment to a creature and lose control of the creature while the equip ability is on the stack, does the equipment still get attached?

It does not, because as the ability goes to resolve the target is not legal (because it isn't a creature you control).

Oh well, thanks though!

Is this different from WHEN x enters the battlefield?
I've been told that I can respond to Archangel Avacyn etb by doom blading or whatever. The indestructible still happens but she ded before it triggers

Correct. "When", "Whenever", and "At" denote TRIGGERED abilities, which absolutely use the stack, and can be responded to.

The "as ~ enters" things aren't triggers, but replacement effects, and can't be responded to. So are "~ enters the battlefield tapped", or "~ enters the battlefield with N +1/+1 counters"- they modify the WAY the permanent enters. It doesn't come in untapped, then tap itself, or without counters, then gain them- that's HOW it comes in.

By contrast, Avacyn comes in as normal, and WHEN that happens, a trigger is placed on the stack. The trigger doesn't actually do anything until it resolves, so she is 100% vulnerable to Doom Blades until then.

What if I just want to play a game and not solve an equation?

I'd say "Play mono red", but that involves counting to 7.

F-fuck you.

why isn't every etb AS then?

A few reasons. Any of them that target wouldn't really work, because when would you select your target?

Also, as I said- replacement effects can't be responded to. Wizards wants BOTH players to be able to respond to ETB effects, which is why they're triggers. If you made them into replacement effects, they'd basically be baked into the creature spell, so you'd have to respond to the spell, or not at all. Stifle and Trickbind would lose half of their functionality. There's lines of play that only exist when you can respond to the trigger, rather than the spell, etc.

In short, it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

And with that note, I am off to bed. If the thread's still up tomorrow I'll answer questions- if it's dead, I'll make a new one!

I'm not sure i understand. I don't see why tribal has to be a type any more than legendary

speaking of origins

does kothophed trigger from tokens dying?

So when do you target shit with EDF? My opponent the other night said they cast it, pass priority, trigger to target, pass priority. Is this correct? I'm pretty sure it's cast, trigger, pass priority.

>Open my first magic pack in fucking forever
>get a mythic rare

LOL
O
L

Shits rigged to get me to buy more packs admit it

What rare?

>cast calamari
>no one gets priority because a trigger has to go on the stack
>choose targets
>pass priority
>they pass it back
>resolve trigger
>pass priority
>they pass it back
>resolve calamari

yes

Can I use stifle to counter cumulative upkeep ?

so lets say I choose targets, pick their four lands. i pass priority, they pass priorty, the trigger resolves, they can respond still by tapping and casting an instant or does the trigger resolving mean the land taps before priority passes.

He passed priority, the trigger resolves. He can tap the lands before he passes, but no, in this scenario he needs priority to tap them.

I don't see why not.

When the trigger resolves, the lands are tapped. No one gets to do anything during a spell/ability resolving.

what plane are WUBR and Silas Renn from?
why do they have missing bodies that are held together with metal fencing and fairy farts?

100.6b Players can use the Magic Store & Event Locator at Wizards.com/Locator to find tournaments in their area.

If I cast newmrakul, can I force my opponent to do this?

...

I...don't see why not.

No, I'm pretty sure you can't. Just like you can't make them concede. I keked though.

The whole point of Tribal was to give creature subtypes to noncreature cards.

Supertypes cannot have subtypes.

It was easier for them to make Tribal a type, with a set of subtypes identical to Creature subtypes, than to make it a Supertype and write in a rule that the Tribal supertype allows non-creature types to have creature subtypes.

Yep! Tokens are permanents.

Deep Friend never targets anything, because creature spells don't target.

The TRIGGER needs targets as soon as it's put on the stack, which is right after you cast Deep Friend. So you'd cast it, it would trigger, trigger would go onto the stack, and then your opponent has priority with both the trigger and the spell on the stack.

Your hand size is equal to the number of Hour counters on the most-recently-played Midnight Oil.

Yes, it's a trigger. Countering it would stop the card from getting an Age counter that turn AND from you needing to pay for it that turn.

They can allow the trigger to resolve, then respond to the spell on the stack. They can't pass priority back, "let the trigger resolve", then respond by tapping lands- because the trigger resolved. It tapped those lands. They'd have to tap their lands in response to the trigger itself.

Alara, most likely from Esper. It's a living metal called Etherium, and the sapient life on Esper is obsessed with replacing huge chunks of themselves with it.

Veteran Bodyguard won't stop trample damage going through normally. Correct?

But what if you were attacked by a Iroas's Crusader with Primal Frenzy enchanting it and cast Curtain of Light or Flash Foliage after first strike damage?

>Trample
Right. If you block the creature, it isn't UNBLOCKED, so none of the damage goes to Bodyguard.

>Second thing
If you mean Iroas's Champion...

Still no. The creature became blocked (via your spell, but still), so Bodyguard's effect doesn't apply because it isn't an unblocked creature damaging you.

Destroy refers just to damage greater than toughness and cards that explicitly say destroy, right?

Things are only destroyed if they are creatures with lethal damage on them, or a specific "destroy" event happens to them, yes.

Did you have a specific interaction or card in mind?

I'm mostly thinking about Pyramids.

Pyramids is weird.

Not as bad as Equinox.

Forest Gearhulk, not the masterpiece version of it unfortunately

what happens if I awaken Westvale Abbey and then transform it into Ormendahl?

Transforming it changes the copiable characteristics, but any continuous effects applied to it still work. So it'll override Ormendahl J. Simpson's P/T to 0/0, and it'll still have the counters on it. Also he wouldn't be a Demon, but an Elemental, from the Awaken effect.

So basically, you just make him smaller.

If a sac Kokusho, the Evening Star for something like Viscera Seer or Ashnod's Altar will his ability trigger ?

He died, so yes.

Somebody posted this combo in another thread and i need some help figuring it out. March of the machines plus micosynth lattice plus planeswalkers plus experiment kraj. If kraj puts a counter on one or more of the planeswalker creatures can kraj use loyalty abilities?

If I Legerdemain a creature under the effects of Mind Control or Take Possession, do I get it?
If I keep it, what happens if either enchantment gets destroyed?

Can you answer the pay 50 life, do 50 dmg ability of that artifact? If yes, let's say the opponent has 51 life and I respond his ability with a fiery temper, what would happen?

I think he would lose first, since he pays 50 life to activate the ability which goes onto the stack, and then you cast Fiery Temper. He's currently at 1 life, Temper deals 3, and he dies before his 50 damage ability resolves.

Yep! "Died" just means "Was put into a graveyard from the battlefield". Doesn't matter if Koko was destroyed or sacced, both are still 'dying'.

He can, because those are activated abilities of a thing with a +1/+1 counter. However, you have to pay the cost of adding or removing however many loyalty counters, and you can only do one loyalty ability per permanent per turn.

Yes. The Legerdemain sets up a new control-changing effect in Layer 2, which overrides the Aura's. The Aura is still ATTACHED to the creature, mind you, it just doesn't do much. If the aura gets destroyed, nothing much happens.

It's an activated ability which means it uses the stack and can be responded to. Your Temper would put them at -2 life, and they would die to SBAs before their ability ever resolved.

you remember that bullshit about aetherflux if you cast two instants you gain 2+2 life instead of 1+2

what happens in the case of Rashmi, Eternities Crafter?
>cast 3 cmc spell
>rashmi topdecks a 2 cmc spell
>2 cmc spell resolves, gain 2 life?
>first spell resolves, gain 2 life?

what about Harness the Storm?
>take inventory, recasting another take inventory from bin
>gain 4 life? my "storm count" is now at 2, right? not sure about timing of these abilities but i figure one can stack them

>Rashmi
Correct, if you stack your triggers so that Rashmi's is on the stack ABOVE Reservoir. She'll trigger, flip the top card, and cast it. That triggers Reservoir again; each trigger will gain you 2 life as it resolves.

>Harness
Same deal. Both your triggers, so you can put the Harness trigger above the Reservoir trigger to cast the Inventory in your bin, gain 2 life, draw 1 card, gain 2 life, then draw 2 cards, in that order.

Play Saskia, swing with a 1/1 with Furnace of Rath out. As I understand it, the 1/1 does 2 combat damage to the defending opponent because of Furnace, Saskia's ability happens and tries to do 2 damage to the chosen one and then Furnace says "nah make it 4"?

Correct.

>Saskia's ability happens and (the 1/1) tries to do 2 damage

This legend's a lot better than I initially thought.

thanks that helps
i'm actually considering cutting Rashmi because while she is quite good she is literally the only reason I'm running green
I've tried bfz kiora, altered ego, wildest dreams but all are not quite right. do you have any suggestions here? the list is heavy on cantrips to keep the cards going, using Jori En who is also good. ideally i would like a backup wincon for if they fuck up my aetherfluxes. i need some perspective, can you help?

>Suggestions?
I don't think you understand how catastrophically bad I am at Magic.

In a multiplayer game, if one player concedes, is there any time for other players to respond to the change in board state as a result?

This girl breaks double strike in two

In a way. They can't respond to the actual concession, but the player leaving the game may cause some other stuff to trigger (not likely).

Since sanctioned multiplayer basically doesn't exist outside 2HG at prereleases, feel free to play it by ear- have the player say "I'm gonna scoop. Before I do that, does anyone have anything they wanna do?"

>may cause some other stuff to trigger (not likely)
I'm having a hard time thinking of what someone leaving would do because them and all their swag is gone. All their effects on stack too. I don't think leaves the battlefield effects notice a conceding player's stuff leaving. Maybe if players have been swapping creatures?

It's more their absence, like you can't disenchant their Oblivion Ring to get back your whatever, that's gone now. Or you can't play something to benefit from their Forced Fruition or whatever.

Right- which is why it's a nice thing to say "I am going to scoop, so if anyone wants to do something before I do that, do it now", like giving an opportunity to pop their O-Ring.

They don't HAVE to, mind you, but it's a nice gesture.