How does a martial fight a dragon of this size without the dragon resorting to stupid vidjya attack cycles...

Climb on top and stab it in the eye/earhole until it dies.
And no, 'a guy with a sword' isn't expected to kill it. A guy with a sword, with buffs, healing, mage support, and some pretty good abilities of his own? Yes.

>about how many elves or dwarves or whatever were actually at the battle.
I wouldn't even bring that up if I were to make a list of flaws. But please don't make me write that list.

I disliked the Shai-Huluds, however.

>It knocks down buildings just by swinging its claw, but somehow every RPG expects a guy with a sword to be able to kill this thing?

Imagine an intelligent rat with a sword and some combat experience coming at you with the intent to kill and steal your change jar to become fantastically rich.

You'd be forgiven for thinking you could easily just swat the fucking thing and crush it or something, but underestimating it would be seriously stupid.

>Using a sword

>Imagine an intelligent rat with a sword
While you are wearing mail armor and the rat is walking on its hind-legs because it has to be erect to use the sword and you have a real sword.
It doesn't fucking matter how much you underestimate the rat. The beast lacks the strength to puncture your gambeson underneath the mail, and a single half-assed swipe of your sword would be both undodgeable and lethal.

...

Well, that's where the whole "fantasy" thing comes in, isn't it?

Right, I forgot about your firebreath.

It's a magic rat, with a magic sword.

Stop using "Fantasy" as a hand wave. Besides, that's not the point of the thread.

The point is how does it happen? If you and to explain the fight between the knight and the dragon in a believable fashion, how would it go down?

Does it have a name?

Rickey Rat

Oh god I'm so glad I stopped watching after the first movie, it was bad enough.

Not the rat, the sword. Of course the rat has a name.

Also, it's the chosen one. And fate has declared that it's destined to kill you, despite the odds.

The Rat? Or the Sword?

That IS the sword's name.

volley of arrows on wings when it's airborne.

when it comes down, you charge to it with your lance, think of Monster Hunter vidya.

Blackwand

>The beast lacks the strength to puncture your gambeson underneath the mail, and a single half-assed swipe of your sword would be both undodgeable and lethal.

Spoken like a person who's never tried to hit a rat with a sword.

A rat standing on two legs.

I'm running a pretty standard "kill the dragon campaign" And i'm planning on having one of several espionage missions being to shoot the dragons wings so it can't use itself to stop the force dedicated to stopping him,

Previous part of the campaign had you injure the dragons wings forcing it to retreat to it's lair where you go on to kill it with swords

Except rats move fast and humans don't.

Make it piss of a god

Maybe try poisoning the next sacrificial virgin you have to feed him.

Not nearly as impressive as having the barbarian dress up as a virgin, and then, once he's been swallowed, tear the dragon up from the inside.

Study the dragon's habits and habitat. Plan an ambush, and pour all your resources into this battle. Your chances of survival are 5%, but that 5% is what epic tales are all about.

Your first mistake was letting the dragon choose the battlefield. Retreat, save as many people as you can but do not try to confront the Dragon. It's impossible to stop a dragon on a rampage. Learn, you need to choose the location of your final battle carefully. Another city with enough ballistae to to blot out the sky, or a poisonous marsh with highly combustible gases could work for a suicide last stand.

Find some way to injure the dragon. Either a legendary sword of ages of yore or siege equipment if you are a poor peasant. Poison is unlikely to kill an adult dragon but it might hinder them if they are not immune to its effects.

The dragon can end you in less than a minute. Don't get hit. And the best way to not get hit is (besides hiring some poor sap to do the job instead) to not be seen. Stalk the beast, take potshots at it. Use fireworks to disorient it, poison his game with small doses of venom, use a system of strings to fire unmmaned ballistae at the beast to keep it from guessing your position, load up a garish caravan with gunpowder hire some minimum staff and tell them to transport that stuff through the dragon's territory. When the beast approaches, lit the fuse and run for the hills. It won't kill him but it might just give it a nasty wound that will take some time to heal. You aren't going to kill a dragon with just one day, let alone one encounter. Be prepared, it could take months or even a lifetime.

Heavy nets could pin it down for a round or two to charge but you are underestimating the dragon if you think a bunch of recruits with longbows can even hit-much less pierce- the dragon's hide. Ambush it while it's hunting for food.

Ancient peoples in canoes with bone weapons managed to hunt and kill whales.

Organized medieval humans could probably have killed dragons if they existed, just not without lots of trial and error (and casualties). Unless they were godzilla sized I suppose.

The largest animals ever were hunted almost to extinction by men with spears. They weren't legendary heroes on an epic quest to save the world; it was just a job. They killed these things routinely.

Yes, the dragon has slightly tougher skin and breathes fire but that's what makes it something that is noteworthy to kill rather than a convenient source of lamp oil.

If it's a multiheaded dragon, get the heads into an argument.

With tactics besides standing in one place and stabbing its toes? A half dozen examples come to mind.
>Use seige machines from a recent war to wound the beast's wings, rendering it landbound.
>Nets or a unstable cliff side set to go off at the exact moment needed to trap the dragon under either.
>Fantastical Thor strength lets you make the jump checks required to jump up and deal massive damage to the dragon whenever he swoops by, dodging his breath attacks which he can't keep going forever and a dragon's pride prevents it from running from such a "puny human".
>Poison of some kind or chemical weapons delivered via barrel-through-mouth.
>Use your 9th level fighter's bonus perks of being in barge of an army and organize an attack that one man could never accomplish on his own.
>Work with the other 3-4 members of your party like you're supposed to in a shared story telling game.

You could always target its weak point for massive damage.

Anyone got image of Lauis stabbing the red dragon thoat?

Agreed. It all depends on the specifics of the dragon really. How big/tough/smart is it and does it breath fire and how often can it do that. Can it fly and if so for how long? What does it need to survive?

Most of these variables are unanswered or change based on setting so its hard to answer the question specifically.

If the dragon has skin similar to hardened steel plates it might be impossible to kill the thing with conventional medieval weapons. If it can fly it might be impossible to catch. If it never sleeps or eats it might be impossible to ambush. If its immune to poison you can't poison it, and if its smart you probably won't be able to bait it.

>>Fantastical Thor strength lets you make the jump checks
Just throw some spears at him.

>a convenient source of lamp oil.
I really like this idea.
I think I'm going to have some sort of sky-whalers hunt the settings dragons for cheap meat and leather.

Also: dragon scrimshaw.

>I think I'm going to have some sort of sky-whalers hunt the settings dragons for cheap meat and leather.

The same people who translate Dungeon Meshi also translate a manga called "Kuutei Dragons".

The plot of said Manga is exactly what you just said: a team of Dragon Hunters in an air-ship floating around hunting dragons for oil, hides, & meat.

When did dragons get so big? &! The old old stories the dragons were about the size of a horse.

But to answer your question, the magic sword would have to be the finisher. But otherwise with a dragon that large then it would need to be incapacitated in some one first before the deathblow with the blade.

>When did dragons get so big?
When people found more dinosaur skeletons.

I'm playing devils advocate for fun here to prove we kinda need a specific dragon to answer with specifics.

Seige machines were considered accurate if they could strike immobile buildings occasionally. A flying dragon is a completely different kind of target, and a siege engine and its crew being large and immobile is just about the most vulnerable thing I can think of to a dragon.

Nets burn and drops from high places shouldn't bother a flying dragon.

I'll ignore "superhero" humans as I'm not sure that is what the OP was looking for.

Poison. This seems to me the most likely response. Depending on how keen a dragon is poisoning may be very difficult, and depending on its senses may require special poisons that are tasteless/odorless. Then there is the dose size and logistics of delivery. You are going to need a lot of poison of a high quality and there likely isn't any data available on dragon metabolism. Also, this might simply not work if dragons are immune, or smart enough to immunize themselves. A very paranoid intelligence that has many enemies might possibly pursue immunity by slowly ratcheting up exposure.

I think a dragon against a conventional army would be heavily in the dragons favor. I think it would be like trying to fight a modern day jet fighter armed with napalm. I doubt arrows could ground a dragon, and I doubt lances of knights could wound it once on the ground but I bet a dragon could make matchsticks of entire regiments of people at once every flyby.

>a conventional army
Obviously. Our weapons were designed to fight humans, not monsters.
What kind of weapons could be used against dragons though?

>I'll ignore "superhero" humans as I'm not sure that is what the OP was looking for.
He's looking for people who have a chance of taking down a dragon single-handedly in a system where alone barbarian can kill lesser dragons 1d4 times per round.
>Dragons can immunize themselves against poison
Dragons aren't spellcasters.
>Army wouldn't work
I specifically said "Plans that no single man could accomplish", not "throw enough bodies at the problem until it goes away". These 6 plans were what I came up with in the time it took me to type it out. What sort of plans then could a dozen people with hours of research be able to plan out and the manpower to enact those plans?

If you're just standing in an open field waiting for your turn to attack, you're probably doing it wrong.

Remember what I said about spiky armor being stupid?
When you are fighting a dragon, you want as many spikes on your armor as you can fit on it.

You don't need to be a wizard to immunize yourself against some poisons like snake venom. You just ratchet up exposure very slowly. Its been done by a few people and you can google it.

I doubt any number of men could defeat a dragon of sufficient size/strength/int without special weapons or tactics as you point out.

I don't think "big crossbows" are the answer because I don't think even those could defeat proper plate armor at moderate range. Also, the problems with fireproofing people with medieval tech are probably insurmountable while retaining any potential for offense.

I'd suggest calling in the alchemists and wizards to try and cook up a gun, poison, or acid that could kill the dragon. Even partial success could make a dragon find easier prey.

Beyond that I would try to structure society and government with a lot of redundancy with the expectation of suffering losses to dragons. Realistically, if you can't find a solution to kill the dragon you need to learn how to minimize risk associated with it, and how to absorb any losses it might make you suffer on a macro level. its basically a natural disaster.

Breath Attack. user wants to go final fantasy on the dragon.

Do you have any idea how many different poisons there are?

That number is greatly reduced in practice when you are dealing with medieval level tech.

>>Fantastical Thor strength
It's either a huge iron bar with a pointy end, or else a tree with a pointy steel bit on one side.
Dragon Breath won't be quick enough to actually burn it.

Not it. You.

>You don't need to be a wizard to immunize yourself against some poisons like snake venom. You just ratchet up exposure very slowly. Its been done by a few people and you can google it.
Does a dragon have access to google? Would such a mighty creature have regular access to such poisons and be willing to bring themselves low to inject themselves with unknown amounts of poison through unknown means? Dragons ain't suicidally paranoid due to being a giant fire breathing lizard capable of toppling castles.
>I doubt any number of men could defeat a dragon of sufficient size/strength/int without special weapons or tactics as you point out.
Agreed. But this is D&D where a certain build could cause you to be able to kill an adult red dragon with two darts %65 of the time. Logic is out the window.
>I don't think "big crossbows" are the answer because I don't think even those could defeat proper plate armor at moderate range. Also, the problems with fireproofing people with medieval tech are probably insurmountable while retaining any potential for offense.
A ballista can shoot a metal tipped arrow through multiple car doors. I think shooting a dozen at a dragon should be enough to wound it heavily or cripple both wings.
>I'd suggest calling in the alchemists and wizards to try and cook up a gun, poison, or acid that could kill the dragon. Even partial success could make a dragon find easier prey.
That's against the rules. We are talking about how someone with no magic in D&D could kill a dragon.
>Beyond that I would try to structure society and government with a lot of redundancy with the expectation of suffering losses to dragons. Realistically, if you can't find a solution to kill the dragon you need to learn how to minimize risk associated with it, and how to absorb any losses it might make you suffer on a macro level. its basically a natural disaster.
Which would wipe out your civilization regardless if you don't stand up and do something to kill it.

i came up with a system we use in D&D. There is an initiative list that i keep. the players take their rolls without discussing sharing eachothers info on success (each has a DM style screen with a tablet that we have linked up to mine and sends me their results while i prep the enemy actions), but without applying the damage or actually moving. instead, everything occurs according to my initiative list at the same time. Slight advantage to the top of the list, but if you take a shot with a bow and the goblin moves just before your "turn" you still miss. the player is allowed a "correction" roll to still connect the attack, but it gives the illusion overall that things happen all at once instead of turn based.

Jumping to the side is more effective to avoid Dragon Breath than jumping upwards.

That just makes the game harder.

I figured I'd leave the dragons intelligence open ended. Seeking immunization to poison is something a Dragon MIGHT try, depending on a lot of factors and level of intelligence. Its also something they simply might have naturally, like the possum.

Are ancient ballistas really capable of what you imply? I personally doubt it, but if you have a source that would be helpful to post. If its possible to injure a dragon with one then I would simply commision that they become standard infantry weapons and mass produce them, but based on the specifics of dragons within the setting they probably won't do shit.

DnD isn't the only RPG out there and I have mostly been looking at the problem outside of a ruleset and just tried to imagine dragons being transplanted into actual history or something similar.

I meant the term "wizard" as it was used historically as a catchall term for mystics/alchemist. They obviously didn't have real magic, but kings still called on them to tell fortunes, predict the weather, or cook up some remedy.

so it can use its fucking hands to do shit
>small shit fundamentally upsets me more than large shit. give me a bear with an axe over a rat with a sword any day.

At least the bear can make herself useful, chopping wood for you and stuff.

>standard infantry weapons and mass produce them
A ballista is basically a very large crossbow. Accounts tell of it piercing through both horse and armored rider during its time, but it was a bitch to reload and hard to move.

makes it flow better. they get to talk tactics during the down time and with the "correction" rolls, it ends up being only slightly more challenging than normal. these are players who have played for over a decade and wanted to change it up. for the past year, we have run this way and they love it.

>69
>and stuff
go read up on historic siege weapons such as the scorpion and ballistia

It really depends on the dragon. If its intelligent, the martial is fucked if its a guy with a sword working on his own. If the dragon isn't intelligent, he has a fairly unlikely shot but as a last ditch sort of thing it might work.

>100% fire resistance, or setting equivalent
>very agile

Combine those two, and he can just tank the fire long enough for a dragon to realize it can't burn him. If its smart, it will realize the tiny motherfucker probably has tricks up its sleeve and will start start tossing rocks at it. If its stupid, it will go straight after him into melee. Since it would probably have to be slow, there's a possibility to Kratos your way up him. But that would definiently be difficult and would require a dedicated set of rules to pull off well.

I generally have dragons be small and flightless. Small being a relative term, mind; the males are about the size of Rhinos and Females grow to the size of a small house (since they're in charge of defending the nest while males need to be quick to hunt). Though the males can manage cheetah speeds in a charge, and a hunting pack of drakes makes a wedge of Cataphracts look downright safe in comparison.

I'd love if you did though. Is that a good enough reason to ?

Maybe tomorrow, if I remember to. I need to go to bed now.

I have before and currently am. I can't find any evidence that large crossbows were capable of piercing hardened steel plate. Not even anecdotal mention of it.

And logically it seems reasonable to me to that such weapons wouldn't be capable of this, because as I understand plate armor was developed and evolved in reaction to gun powder weapons, not bows of any kind.

Hardened sloped steel just isn't going to see significant penetration from subsonic weapons.

Right. Underestimate him. That's how every dragon falls.

>large crossbows
Do you know what a ballista is? It's a crossbow the size of a car that shoots logs thicker than your arm (or the average person's arm).

What about those giant thin leathery targets full of blood vessels and muscle tissue called wings? Or the underbelly of the dragon? Or the eyes? Or anywhere else? If you're just going to drone on about "Its not realistic for a peasant with a crossbow to kill a dragon" then shut it. A Fantasy martial is like Achilles.

>Are ancient ballistas really capable of what you imply?
Its worth noting that piercing through modern car doors is different than piercing through plate armor. Also, like said, its not something you can carry around. You needed a whole crew to operate one ballista. Artillery is rather more impactful than a one man weapon.

>but based on the specifics of dragons
If we assume that scales on dragons work fundamentally similar to how they work on any other animal with scales, it would just be a matter of firing at the right angle and at the right speeds to force the scales aside.

wikipedia tells me a ballista was not a homogenous entity and that the largest of them fired stones roughly weighing 170 lbs. When they got that big I guarantee you would no longer be able to track a moving target capable of attacking from literally any angle and breathing fire.

In the scenario you describe, these would be weapons mounted on the walls and possibly internal towers of a castle or town (lighter ones, but still in large numbers, would be more likely for hunting) and each would operate independently upon a dragon attack. Also, I don't really see why it would be difficult; a dragon that size would have considerable mass and take a relatively long time to turn around. Assuming, of course, the laws of motion are still in effect.

>this nigga never heard of Ancalagon the Black
This motherfucker was the size of a mountain range

First, OP, define a high-level martial without resorting to stupid vidjya attack cycles.

Ballista of that size were massive machines weighing thousands of pounds that required pulleys and levers just to minutely change the firing angle so as to fire at roughly static targets. Unless you are suggesting that the dragon flies into the firing arc I'm not sure how you expect to be able to hit the dragon. These things were siege weapons. Designed to shoot at fortifications like stone walls.

Imagine trying to hit a dragon with a trebuchet if that is easier to understand.

Then don't use the big ones. Contrary to what seems to be common thought, scales are not an intricately and mathematically designed designed perfect armor damaged only by the relative frailty of the scales; they don't cover perfectly and if you're shooting large numbers numbers of lighter ones, or even scorpios. Hell, there's even a small size ballista called a 'hand ballista' (Cheiroballistra) that shot bolts made mostly of metal.

Run up the raindrops and stab that motherfucker in it's face.
Hulk out and throw your sword really. REALLY hard at it's wing.
THIRD IMPACT it with Ki.
Fire yourself from a heavy ballista.
Suplex it.

I mean, it's not like you're playing a system where martials are not on par with casters, are you?

Spoken like a man who's never woken up with his eyeballs half clawed out and scratches round his throat deep enough to bleed.

Asbestos usually only causes cancers in those exposed to it regularly over the course of decades. If you're a career dragon killer, then it's gonna be a problem.

I am that is.

Rats don't need combat experience or intelligence, just numbers and the desire to kill.

>Jump Upwards
>Dragon's breath falls upon itself, obscuring vision
>Lunge your lugged spear down, cutting the Dragon down

Dragoon's are actually a realistic counter to Dragon's.

If you can counter the Dragon's wings by Magical jumping and immunity to fall damage, the Dragon is fucked.

Dragon's don't expect attacks from above.

I've always liked the almost childlike simplicity of "bigger enemy = get a bigger sword."

That's kind of why I love how in Monster Hunter the smallest weapons are still oversized.

What's the largest weapon useable by players in monster hunter? On a scale of 1-50 where 1-10 is shown what would the average mid-game weapons be?

I understand the appeal of that on an intellectual level but I've never managed to actually like it. My dad taught me classical fencing as a kid so I've always been really conscious of just how big a different an extra two pounds makes, let alone swords like those.

One of the bigger weapons is a full-sized coffin strapped to a mutant chicken leg and painted purple. So probably a 15.

>having the barbarian dress up as a virgin
I'll bite. How does a virgin dress?

If you're in a civilized part of the world, a 13 year old girl. If you're in a Muslim part of the world, a 4 year old girl.

Hopefully the dragon has bad eyesight.

>Ancalagon the Black
>posts deathwing

...

I realize that Tolkien isn't exactly the hot new shit, but I think he meant medieval legends or earlier.

Really big bow

wait, you don't wanna beat up the dragon with your bare hands and rip out his powers? weird