With Space marines just how super do you like to imagine them? 'merely' the best of the best of the best...

With Space marines just how super do you like to imagine them? 'merely' the best of the best of the best, or literal walking gods of death.

My personal headcannon is they they are closer to captain America or Big Boss then superman or Goko in power level. They are basically just what a normal human could be at his physical and mental peak, the stuff about a single marine killing a thousand Demons, bare handed really is just hyperbole and propaganda.

Not only is that closer to their actual Stat block line (both in the war game and role-playing game) I like the image of idea of mankind's greatest defenders still being fundamentally 'just' human.

Physically they're more than human.

Mentally they're equal, though since they have a lot of physical advantages they can live long enough to gain more tactical-level experience than 99% of ordinary soldiers.

That doesn't make them gods, but a special-forces level veteran who is wearing vehicle-scale armor and never sleeps or tires can probably do a good impression against unsupported grunts.

The extended life expectancy would probably make a big difference then most people would give it credit.

A veteran space marine would have literally centuries of experience then even a legendary Guardsman. Not necessarily wiser but still can't be understated.

That said they are plenty of Imperial Guardsman hero units that outshine a 'base line' space marine mentally and sometimes even physically, both in the crunch and occasional fluff. So the idea of them merely Be so the idea of them 'merely' prime specimens of humanity suits that.

Primarchs are more comparable to walking gods of death, but below them I would call space marines not superhuman but posthuman. As said, they don't have a fundamental gap in brainpower save the one that arises from more experience, but their ability to physically actuate whatever they want is always at least one degree beyond whatever the most fit natural human can fathom. Captain America is an interesting standard to me because he's more what I imagine space marine adepts to be like as they grow to fill the limits of human potential, before they are reshaped into wholly different organisms.

>They are basically just what a normal human could be at his physical and mental peak, the stuff about a single marine killing a thousand Demons, bare handed really is just hyperbole and propaganda.
IG fanboy detected. So what about those stories of IGs winning battles? Are those hyperbole and propaganda too?

Your headcannon is hot garbage.

pretty much deathwatch rpg tier

astartes are also mentally superior on every level

>captain America or Big Boss
captain america is quite different from big boss, though

big boss is just a badass dude
captain america had the super soldier serum

Anyways space marines are captain america but with better equipment and completely different moral standards. Also acidic spit and brain eating powers.

They're walking Death Machines, but they're not Gods.

Imagine, for a moment, that you're playing an online FPS. You have been playing the FPS for a bit. The game is massive. There are about a thousand players that have been playing since the very start.

Now you? You're pretty good. You're getting the hang of things. Games about a decade old, player skill varies a lot. You're starting to figure out how players fight, move and shoot. You're starting to figure out all these little things that seem inconsequential, but are wonderful. How people move when under fire, what kind of cover they move towards, how fast the usual target moves, etc.

Now, imagine one of those players that's been there from the start. He's had literal years to get used to it. In fact, imagine all those players are NEETs that spend half their time playing it. It's like they have auto-aim, and tracking, and all these other little cheats. They're horrors to fight.

Now give them those cheats and you have Astartes. They know what their foe is going to do, because many of them live long enough to have seen the same thing done several times before. They can hear your every move, smell you when you try to hide. Small arms are useless against them, their equipment lets them know distances and round destination.

They're far above human. But they're not going to split a god damn tank by punching it ala Goku(Unless power/chainfist).

Oh user.

Captain America is a total god of war who has bested the Hulk in melee with a nutshot.

I like to imagine Marines in pretty much the same way, and I'd love it if they were reflected as such in fluff more. Kind of sort of like Mandalorians. Badass to be sure and will most often win one on one with a regular human or adversary, but they still get cut down.

I'd like the silly amount of numbers they keep to be changed as well. Add 2 or 3 0's to every stated organized branch of space marines and they make a bit more sense, at least.

>Mentally they're equal
They know no fear, have such a high level of discipline that they are ready to die for brothers from chapters they are rivaled to, and out-smart pretty much all but the most autistic-savant generals in the Imperium.

They are also immune to romantic feelings or sexual lust.

Fuck no. They're inhuman angels of death, so far above baseline humans that people literally can't react to seeing them in combat with anything but terror.

Humans with genetic enhancements exist in the setting, and they are much, much less than Space Marines.

Aside from the no-fear thing, the other stuff between the romance and lust you said vary from chapter to chapter. You can bet that the Mavolents or Minotaurs or Grey Knights wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice other chapters if it got their jobs done more efficiently, while the number one reason Marines die at all is because they're outsmarted by physically inferior races like the Orks, Tau, and traitors.

>They are also immune to romantic feelings or sexual lust.

This is not an advantageous trait for an individual, but simply one that is largely irrelevant for their line of work.

Also, a huge reason Space Marines don't develop romantic/deep personal relationships with mortals of the opposite sex is because they're super-brainwashed and have pretty much zero down time, let alone any access to non-Astartes 95% of the time.

mentally they aren't equal at fucking all, space marines have reactions measurec in microseconds and can see hypersonic rounds moving like molasses

Whoever wrote that is fucking retarded

"Transhuman phobia" is retarded. Guardsmen face orks and tyranids and necrons and any number of things that are big and fast and lethal. It was just made up by Horus Heresy writers to justify their superhero narratives.

Get em in the tarpit and they go down just like any other heavy infantry.

No? It's standard. Space Marines have everything beyond humanity, as they are humanity magnified. They think faster, they react faster, they remember more, they're smarter, and can assimilate memories by consuming flesh.

Yeah. The basic point has some merit, though.

Space Marine minds are augmented, though. Maybe not to the degree that their bodies are, but the minds of Astartes get reworked. It's not just about being able to know no fear, but there's stuff about regulating their autonomic functions at will. Part of being a Space Marine isn't just being genetically compatible with the gene-seed, it's being able to take the hypno-indoctrination and other mental changes that they have to go through too.

Seriously, a veteran guardsman wouldn't be fazed at all by a Space Marine.

they don't fight anything like space marines. Orks are slow and clumsy, basically gorillas but larger. Tyranids are the only unnautral thing comparable to space marines, and few guardsmen will ever fight them and survive.

Space Marines meanwhile are a giant in armor twice as wide as a normal man and easily weigh over one tonne, yet they move faster than should be physically possible, which is what causes people to crack.

>slow and clumsy, basically gorillas but larger.

If you think gorillas are anything like "slow and clumsy" I eagerly invite you to go pick a fight with one.

They slow and clumsy compared to everything else.

not compared to your fat ass they aren't

They're not even slow and clumsy compared to PEOPLE.

Which is rather the point of the comparison you were making.

And yet humans can match them in Init (Or even surpass them in the case of the pure human Death Cult Assassins or the Sisters of Silence)

Seriously, stop trying. You're not correct.

I like my marines properly superhuman. The fluff promised me superhumans, so I actually get disappointed when this aspect is downplayed. The Astartes are supposed to be such badasses that they have to be kept in units of 1000 in a universe where There Is Only War and the entire galaxy is basically up in flames.

We have instances of marines surviving exterminatus. Virus bombs, IIRC. They're absurdly strong, especially in their power armour, and they're faster than humans, too. I remember a codex entry talking about how landspeeders can't be driven by humans because they lack astartes reaction time.

Game mechanics mean nothing considering it's a game. A game must make abstractions to function. Meanwhile just by the very fact that there are only a million space marines we know they must be superior to almost everything else.

Orks aren't slow or clumsy in a fight, that's when they do what they do best.

Face it, it's just bad writers trying to break the setting with bullshit.

That's all well and good, but functionally speaking writers don't have superhuman intelligence, and can't write characters that have superhuman intelligence.

So what do they do to make it SEEM like Astartes have superhuman intelligence?

They make mortal characters in Space Marine books the dumbest fucking worthless pieces of shit you could possibly imagine. Hard not to look like you have superhuman intelligence standing next to somebody who shits his pants every time he sneezes.

>Orks aren't slow or clumsy in a fight
>I2

Practically all fluff involving Orks mentions how they're slow, and that they overcome that weakness with shear strength. Orks have no finesse to them, they just blugeon you to death, and the big ones are strong enough to even overpower marines.

I mean, we're talking about the guys who use poorly sharpened iron axes, and can hack through tank armor and power armor because they both believe they can, and because they're just that fucking strong.

It's a null question. Your average marine's intelligence is savagely narrow. Anything beyond duty, the operation and some level of maintenance for their gear is likely to be beyond their sphere of concern. This is not to say they're not mentally superhuman- it's just focused in different areas that eludes raw intelligence tests. older fluff states that the astarties is keenly aware of his physiology and commands a remarkable degree of control over otherwise autonomous functions.

Less genius and more dalsim levels of physical mastery.

Now the primarchs, those where literal demigods in most every way. The lion was able to literally eyeball an enemy vessel and rattle off firing information faster and more accurately then the servitors

So 'X is better than space marines' means nothing because space marines still win against things that are better than them?

No, they make space marines look smart by virtue of having an eidetic memory and being able to analyze situations in battle near instantly even as they change. They're like computers in that aspect. Plus they're pretty good at geometry/physics given that they can calculate ballistic trajectories pretty fucking fast too. Obviously they aren't smart like Einstein, you won't find a Space Marine who dips into theoretical astrophysics in his free time, but they're battlefield-smart. Of course they can also apply themselves and that ability to other things, so the Blood Angels are near peerless artists, and space marine naval commanders are some of the best in the imperium.

What about those times when Space Marines were outdone by humans? Daemonfuge has a SOB kick the ass of space marines in melee by being faster than them and imperial guard books have imperial guard members who are more agile and stealthy than space marines.

I think the nemesis novel covers it best. Barring luck nothing short of an assassin will down a space marine one-on-one. Or the night lords series, where one assassin is portrayed as something not even a squad could hope to best

Being strong doesn't mean you can't be fast, Ork's charge at speeds humans couldn't match at a dead run and they're propelling upwards of triple the mass.

Space Marines aren't Eldar-quick either, they're somewhere in the middle, that doesn't mean that people should FREAK OUT when they see them

Unless you're Talos, then you blow her the fuck out.

a nob or warboss can often match a space marine's speed. That said the fluff is all over the goddam place I've seen it said that an astates can dodge fuckken las-beams

No they're pretty close to Eldar in agility, they just don't have the same level of finesse. A Space Marine can move as fast as an Eldar can, but he can't execute a triple spin in the air while doing so.

But Space Marines can and do both dodge and block supersonic and even hypersonic projectiles. They can even swat said projectiles out of the air.

>Daemonfuge has a SOB kick the ass of
the daemonifuge protagonist is about as close as 40k's come to seeing a sue

she has a harlequin boyfriend and blows a culexus assassin up with psychic powers

Nah, Space Marines are so much faster than Eldar that it's not even a fight. Didn't you read the fluff about how fast marines are?

oh also she outfights a dark eldar succubus in the fighting pits, to the point they don't even realize she isn't eldar

Talos states, or is stated several times that he has no chance against her in direct combat. where an ultramarine, a fist, where almost any other chapter would of rushed her and died he won by changing the rules.

1: He for lack of a better word, roared. Deafening her and stripping one of her superlative senses

2: he melted her eyes, blinded and in enough pain to hinder her through even her training she was still capable of dodging bolts.

Talos fought smart because to fight an imperial assassin otherwise has been stated to be suicide

>But Space Marines can and do both dodge and block supersonic and even hypersonic projectiles. They can even swat said projectiles out of the air.

But Eldar can't do that? Or can Eldar deflect bolt rounds before they detonate too?

That's just autism and mary sue horseshit. "NO MORTAL COULD MATCH OC DONUT STEEL'S SUPERLATIVE FLUTE SOLOS"

No they don't. They're nowhere near as fast as space marines or eldar, Orks rely entirely on their strength and durability to win fights. Space Marines and Eldar smack bolts out of the air and doge lasers, Orks just walk through that shit and shrug it off.

A Warboss can survive having all organs in its chest cavity being vaporized, and walk it off in an hour after a Dok stitches them up.

That's still only half as sue as every Space Marine in the setting

>But Space Marines can and do both dodge and block supersonic and even hypersonic projectiles. They can even swat said projectiles out of the air.

When the hell does a marine ever do that? Marines get their shit stomped in by genestealers in melee and those guys are slow enough that they lost to an old priest with a shotgun.

Whoever wrote a Space Marine catching bullets is fucking retarded. do they also shit cupcakes?

Both do, that's my point. But Eldar don't weigh one tonne, so typically they just dodge the round entirely instead of needing to smack it out of the way. Space Marines are fast and CAN jink in combat, it's just that they can't pull of the bullshit Eldar can. It's like a Muscle Car versus an Electric.

So slow to fast it's ork -> astartes -> eldar. Either way, they're all superhuman.

So why should a mortal not even be able to LOOK at a Space Marine in combat? They've got no trouble mowing them down on the tabletop.

Huh? Genestealers are absolutely fucking bullshit and routinely dodge supersonic/hypersonic rounds like nobody's business. Trying to shoot or hit a genestealer in melee is like fighting a cat on PCP. Not to mention it's got four arms, so it's physically impossible to block unless you've got four arms or a shield.

>they just dodge the round entirely instead of needing to smack it out of the way

Then why is it that about the only eldar that are described as agile enough to regularly dodge fire are Harlequins, the guys with flip belts and holograms?

The backstory behind the Defender of the Faith is that he's an old priest who took down a genestealer infestation with Feudal Knights and a Shotgun.

So apparently as good as Genestealers are they can lose to guys in plate armour with steel swords or an old priest with a shotgun.

Tabletop is shit, that's why. Tabletop is actually fairly balanced for Space Marines, Necrons, Eldar, Tau minus infantry (battlesuits), Chaos, and Tyranids, but the horde armies fuck it up. Guard, Orks, and Mechanicus should be like each infantry model equals 30 dudes. Or more. Because a Guard army at more or less equal numbers to Space Marines, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, or Chaos should be shot off the board on turn one. Space Marine Chapters only number 1,000 fighting men, yet they can sack entire planets, including Hive Worlds.


The game is basically in its own little universe that is utterly alien to the fluff courtesy of the horde armies being playable.

This is why I mention the fluff being irregular. On a slightly different topic. Who is the alpha ork? Ghazghkul or Snagrod

I'd file that under "complete and utter bullshit" considering Genestealers routinely dodge point blank bolter and lasgun fire. Must have been a malnourished Genestealer. Genestealers are like Incubi when it comes to speed and lethality. Only the insane meet them in melee.

Alternatively: It's that the Space Marines do what they do in fluff and decapitate enemy command rather than trying to fight the enemy army in a fair fight that allows them to actually be effective with such low numbers.

It's part of the codex so it's actual fluff.

I forget what book it was, but a Baneblade took two shots at an Ork Warboss. The first shot collapsed his energy shield, the second core'd his torso and gutted him.

He literally walked it off like a chapter later. Apparently Warbosses only need their brains. Not that surprising though, as even Ork boyz can survive their heads being cloven in two, at least temporarily. Plus Mad Doks can resurrect a decapitated Ork by just stitching his head back on and giving him a jolt.

I'm not talking about that, which they do sometimes. But Chapters like the Carcharodons have also massacred the entire population of Hive Worlds exclusively in melee. The Invaders Chapter also took out an entire Craftworld, which means taking on thousands of enemies who should normally be peer opponents.

So basically: Only marines get to do heroic feats in fluff?

Heck, a SOB Cannoness killed over a dozen lictors (Over the course of a campaign, not all at the same time) that were sent to kill her in the recent Blood Angels book. Lictors are a step above genestealers in terrifying power.

I'm guessing Cruddace wrote that bullshit.

Gavin Thorpe.

They're as much fungus as not so it's unsurprising.

lictors are a subset of the warrior genus though, no? only genestealers and broodlords get that OC bullshit-tier overwhelming physical power

That's even less surprising. As a DA fag and passing fan of the Eldar, Thorpe needs to be retired from writing, permanently. Virtually everything he's responsible for is complete and utter shit, like the Path of the Eldar trilogy. Where somehow a single Chapter of Space Marines and guardsman backing them up nearly kill fucking Alaitoc.

I've actually never read any fluff where Lictors were super terrifying, at least not as much as Genestealers. Who people really underestimate considering those claws basically ignore armor completely.

So humans are only allowed victories against...what? Traitor guard? Tau?

A guy who has an inv save based on literal divine intervention tends to be able to do a fair bit.

They're just big fodder, wait for a named character to step in and matter.

Space Marines are literally not even human. They're basically walking tanks in lore

Well, 1/6 times they ignore armour completely. Genestealers are kinda overrated because the primary source for them being scary is Space Hulk. Narrow, cramped corridors where it's hard to get a chance to shoot them is by far the best possible place for them to fight.

Lictors are semi-autonomous deep operatives. It makes sense for then to enjoy a degree of independent thought and some specialised tools over raw power.

The hive-mind is nothing if not pragmatic. It's a waste of resources to make something smart, well equipped and stupid strong

Well, except for the fact they are also supposed to be assassins.

The Guard's main job is fighting rebellions and Orks. Shit like Eldar is rare and most Guardsmen are unlikely to have experience in combat against them unless they live near Biel-Tan, and even then the Eldar should massacre them given their superior mobility and love of deepstrikes and outflanking. The basic Eldar chassis for their APC/IFV is able to fly around like a jet, at jetfighter speeds, hover, land anywhere, and a holographic defense that makes it a pain in the ass to hit.

Everything up from there is even worse. Yet of course, Eldar somehow manage to lose most of their battles despite a massive tech advantage, and having psychics able to see the future stationed throughout their war parties.

You don't need hulk strength to be a stealth killer, a warrior is more then enough when you have reach, some sort of murder-tail and the means to wait until the time is right

Warriors are a lot bigger and tougher than genestealers. Seriously, even with 'Fluff does not always equal rules'. One of these is a monster that takes anti-tank weapons to put down in a single hit, the other is a creature that was killed by bolter rounds very regularly on it's main appearance.

You might be thinking of gaunts as the smaller, weaker ones.

That last part is just the result of hormone alterations by the geneseed to keep them form making a race of superhumans independent of humanity, aint it?

Actually warriors are now less durable than purestrain genestealers. Gotta love their invul save.

Basically this for me, almost right on the money.
I like them capable of great physical feats that no ordinary man will ever be able to match but within reason. Warriors who start out special forces tier and become unstoppable killing machines over centuries of experience.
Though I never imagined them to be far beyond humans in terms of mental capacity, but the machinations of their mind to be almost completely alien because of all the indoctrination and mental molding they receive in their training. I like them to resemble humans who are no longer humans in their own way.