What's the difference between a rune priest of the space wolves and a psycher...

It's all just semantics and double standards, really.

The end result usually is the same. It's the methodology and perspective that is different. To put it in DND terms, psykers would be like Wizards and Sorcerers would be well... Sorcerers

Because Rune Priests are only able to channel their sorcerous energies without contaminatino due to the Wulfen gene. That's why the Emperor didn't just tell all the other Legions to make their Librarians Rune Priests.

>The end result usually is the same.
Then why was Emps so mad? It's canon that they spoke across the warp before actually meeting so why was that ok?

If sorcery hold no extra dangers for a skilled psyker then why all the huff and puff?

Sorcery uses rituals and symbolism to conjure power and spirits from the ward to create a desired effect, such as Specs Wolves and Chaos Cultists do

Normal Psyker manifestation is just using will power and psychic energy to directly cause something to happen, like how Librarians, the Emperor, and similar do.

There is no difference, Russ is just a huge hypocrite and his Legion is assembled from superstitious primitives.

They address the hypcorisy in the stories themselves you fucking idiot

Wrong way round mate.

D&D sorcerers would be 40K psykers, who are just using force of will and innate power to do their thing. D&D wizards would be 40K sorcerers, who are using study and symbology and the ocassional Faustian bargain to summon their powers.

>The emperor said no to psychers but
this is the writer oversight

Rectons causing dumb plot shit necessitating further dumb plot shit is a staple of the horus heresy series.

The emperor originally said no MAGIC. With magic and psi being two separate things.

That's not how the Wulfen geese works at all though. The Wulfen gene us a mutation that triggers a Lycanthrope-esque trabformation when exposed to massive amounts of Chaos, and only in some individuals, and is usually irreversible.

They ain't Grey Knights, it doesn't grant immunity. If anything it's just as dangerous of a problem as the 1kSons Fleshchange mutation that infected their geneseed

Personally thats when I decided BL wasn't canon. IT was a change that made no sense for the characters or the story. It's still causing problems today and I hope FW keeps ignoring them but we'll see with Inferno.

so the Wolves are actually far FAR more like the Thousand Sons then they would ever care to admit, I can imagine calling them on this is a fast rout to a painfule grave

now I wanna see a world where ONLY the Wolves and the Sons were swapped in the Heresy, Horus seeing Russ's Self Rightious conviction as more easy to manipulate then Magnus's Arrogance and Curiosity

Semantics and double standards. Basically the Emps was saying "My way is best. Deviate and shit gets bad. FOR YOU."

Fair enough. I can live with that

Because the Primarchs didn't actually understand the distinction because the Emperor who did, didn't tell them so it makes autists who do know the distinction super butthurt for some reason.

Wulfen is like a capacitor, it causes the body to mutate in response to Chaos/Psyker corruption gradually. Only when it overloads does it go full Wolf. That's why Rune Priests are the only Space Marine psykers allowed.

>painfule grave
At first I misread that as "painglove rave"

Actually, I wonder how things would've been different if Form sat both Magnus and Russ down and had the two if them share some mutual Painglove time

>"Magic Pain Glove, how long until my brothers stop acting like petulant man-children and finally start getting along."
>All three are seizuring on the ground

Are there Astropaths around during the Great Crusade? How did they not notice the daemons and shit?

That's bullshit with no backing and you know it

Psychic powers weren't especially common during the crusade. Them emerging in greater numbers (in the pre-magnus thousand sons especially) is part of why the council of Nikaea originally happened.

>Fenris is not a "normal" planet.
Of course it's not. The setting's most speshulest snowflakes would not call a typical planet their home.

>the Wolves are actually far FAR more like the Thousand Sons then they would ever care to admit

Like how.

Can anyone cite the source where the emperor said 'no psykers'?

chapter plagued by frequent mutations who's seers commune with what is most likely daemons to power pyskic power that they think is incorruptible and have massive egos

You know nothing.

In the Curse of Wulfen novella, when Ulrik gets hit by the mutagenic fire of the Tzeentchian flamer daemons, the Canis geneseed counteracted the Chaos corruption and purged it.

The Canis whatever is the thing responsible for the Wulfen.

Collected visions and later.. prospero burns?

prior to those it was always just "no magic, psykers are coo"

In other words you don't understand politics and think that different States having different laws in the US is a writer oversite.

>In the Curse of Wulfen novella
He asked for a source. As in canon source material.

Both practice sorcery, and place it as an integral part of their chapter identity
Both built their legions around the specific trappings of their tribal/superstitious cultures and societies
Both arose from Death Worlds that were previously inhabited by hermits and mutants (there are no wolves on Fenris), but we're made into proper civilizations by their respective primarch
Both are specialized legions that excel at one particular thing
Both legions afflicted with a greased mutation that turns their members into abominations when exposed to chaos
Etc.

I think the biggest reason is that the Wulves kind of laugh at the Codex Astartes as a holy writ and see it more like guidelines to make fun of and walk the line on than anything else, and don't care if what they do is orthodox or not if it serves their interests and righteousness.

A rune priest of the Space Wolves is not a psyker, the same way a cleric is not a sorcerer. Their powers and their functions and their ultimate purposes come from different sources, are applied in different ways and the methods of application are different, as well as what the functions actually do and whom on.

In the end it's all mumbo jumbo, but not all mumbo jumbo is the same.

>plagued by frequent mutations

By purpose. The Emperor design. He created that geneseed and put the Canis in it. The Canis has shown to be reactive to Chaos corruption. fighting and purging the Chaos corruption and in extreme cases of Chaos exposure it might result in the Wolves becoming the Wulfen.

The TS Fleshchange was the result of their sorcery and dealings with Tzeentch.

>seers commune with what is most likely daemons to power pyskic power that they think is incorruptible and have massive egos

The Wolves Runepriests practices are little different from the Stormseers of the White Scars. They drew upon elemental and natural powers. They are not arcane or chaotic forms of warp usage like the TS delved into.

Furthermore, the Rune Priest tradition teaches one to be careful and not blunder around with hubris into the Warp.

So no, TS and SW are not the same.

Shit, man's got a point.

Eat a dick. You don't get to play canon wars here.

And Tzeentch blesses the Space Wolves with the gifts of change and formshifting? Full on werewolf Chaos Marines with some weird warp shit?

Rune Priests and Stormseers(White Scars Psykers) just dip the toe, where sorcerers full on dive in. The short story Allegiance, by Chris Wraight, is a Thousand Sons sorcerer trying to adjust to living with the White Scars. The story makes a point to show that the T-Son cannot understand why the White Scars limit themselves so much, when they could be drawing on the ENTIRE WARP. Even as he's starting to get the Flesh Change, this fucker still can't wrap his head around why someone would be careful instead of just diving in like a five-year-old.

It shows how arrogant their sorcerers are. They think they have the Warp under control and it can't hurt them, where Stormseers and Rune Priests are covered in protective runes and shit to protect them when they draw the bare minimum power needed to achieve their ends.

Long story short, Rune Priests, Stormseers, and the later Librarians in 40k are CAREFUL AS FUCK. The Thousand Sons were not. Fuckers had Daemons as familiars just to make their lives easier.

>By purpose. The Emperor design. He created that geneseed and put the Canis in it.
No, he didn't. That was all Russ's doing.

one is a space marine, one isn't, and expecting coherency from this tangled mess of a universe is about as intelligent as spelling psyker psycher

yes, Bjorn in the same role as Ariman for the wolves as a "Dread Priest" while Arihman is the Librarian Dreanought

Russ did not create the geneseed and he is not fond of the whole barbarian wolf thing IIRC.

>Their powers and their functions and their ultimate purposes come from different sources
No they come from the warp. Don't try and deny it its just retarded.

>He created that geneseed and put the Canis in it.
LaughingterranSpaceWolves.jpg

>The TS Fleshchange was the result of their sorcery and dealings with Tzeentch.
Why are SW fans so delusional? How can they be this blind?

and you're saying Fenris's Nature spirits arent daemons? that said I'll give you that they are careful, but also the TK had no framework for how dangerous it was

>Fuckers had Daemons as familiars just to make their lives easier.
Tutelary Spirits are no more Daemons than the nature spirits that the Stormseers and Rune priests would bind. They're psychic constructs created from the rubric of the specific marine's own mindset, personality, and capability. Essentially they were the psychic equivalent to Stands.

Note how no 1kSon uses them anymore? That's because they aren't as potent as full on Daemons, and we're essentially only of the sane caliber of power as the other spirit familiars that the other legions used.

Space Wolves don't practice sorcery at any capacity comparable to Thousand Sons
Literally every legion did that and their cultures were totally different
Prospero isn't a Death World, Fenris wasn't FOR mutants that happened cause of Arceotech fuckery, Magnus and Russ didn't change their civilization they adopted them
Almost every legion is specialized
Space Wolves were made with their mutations on purpose and embraced it, Thousand Sons is due to Warp fuckery and they damned most of their chapter to solve it.

Not-arguments. You better do better than that and give sources.

Like this :

In a Thousand Sons and Path in Heaven, usage of the Chaos magics leads to the Thousand Sons succumbing to the Flesh Change.

Magnus sold his soul to Tzeentch before the HH in order to cure the flesh change. Tzeentch obliged. However, Tzeentch returned the Flesh Change to the TS during the siege of their homeworld to damn them in the eyes of the Wolves and secure Magnus as his puppet.

The Canis Helix is not an original part of the Geneseed though, it's a highly volatile genetic cocktail that he forced his marines to drink to make them more wolf like, which also resulted in geneseed instability and reduced the effectiveness of non-Fenrisians big able to survive/accept the geneseed.

Russ willfully turned his whole legion into wolfags by forcing then to drink wolf juice

where was this revealed?

Source on the nature spirits please.

As for the Tutelary Spirits, they were full blown daemons that empowered some TS dudes to ludicrous heights. Heck, Gyre from "Talon of Horus" is the best example. She is described to be really a daemon like all her kind but the TS didn't see that before, also she also speaks for the Pantheon.

And by goodness is she powerful. Capable of massacring marines. Confronting powerful beings like the an Ragged Knight, the avatar of the Emperor in his aspect of the Golden Throne, and fucking Horus Reborn.

The Cup of Wulfen is the method of inserting the Canis Helix. It's an integral part of the complex ritual of creating a Space Wolf because it is the cornerstone of the geneseed. Not some random mutation Russ decided to throw in.

>Prospero isn't a Death World,
It literally is a complete desert Death World where the rejects of the galaxy hid because no one else wanted the place.
Then Magnus turned it into a paradise, brought about education, and converted/consolidated the scattered superstitious cultures and greater a codified education system, as well as a proper systematic means of categorizing, teaching, and safely developing psychic potential.

FURTHER the fleshchange predated the finding of Magnus, according to Ahriman's records as it was also the cause of his brother's death before they left Terra, and was already a well known issue in the geneseed long before the massive influx of psykers info the legion from the naturally psychic population of Prospero, which for some retarded reason Emps never bothered to fix.

No terran marine drank from any of those cups, the Canis Helix is a russ thing

>which for some retarded reason Emps never bothered to fix.

The Emperor cannot fix something ordered into existence by a Chaos God. After all, he is but a man.

You sure? Because we know for a fact that nobody knows how to create new and unique components of the geneseed other than the Emperor.

He could've scrapped the geneseed and rebuilt a new one, it given the legion the same treatment he gave the Lost2
Nipping it early would've been a mercy

Nice Quads. It's a Desert world. Prospero is shitty but it doesn't actively fuck over human attempts of settlement like Fenris, Catachan or Nocturne.

So they were both built in with mutations on purpose. Still Space Wolves accepted theirs while TS tried to change it.

But the legion belonged to a lost son that he didn't get to meet yet. It would be heartbreaking to unite with Magnus only to tell him that thousands of sons he never got to embrace were killed off, and he unlike his brothers won't have a legion that has his blood running through it.

Magnus was probably a lot more valuable as a powerful Psyker then he was as a progenitor for a Legion. His Legion was almost always relatively small. All the Primarchs of course were unfinished works when they were kidnapped.

Space Wolf omnibus states the cup was first owned and used by Russ, who first shared it with the members of his closest disciples on Fenris, which implies that it was not adopted or used by the legion until after they found Russ

Magnus could've been useful even without the Legion. Who's could've taken him under his wing, teach him how not to mess with chaos, had him as his personal magic wrecking ball, and maybe could've included him in working on the Webway Project.
Plus then Magnus would have gotten to wear Custodes armor and worked with them instead. Better to keep the redboy and remove an inviable legion than let the two suffer together

>Who's
*Emps
I hate phone posting

IA just had Magnus teach the 1kSons how to use their powers properly and that solved it right up. It meant that only the best survived and forced them to expand their knowledge of the warp to survive.

At least BoP retconned it back to being him just stopping it. No eye trading or demon help jus the 2nd most powerful psyker doing his thing. Something Emps either couldn't or wouldn't stop.

hey may have not had the direct genetic bond needed to do the task, even a single generation makes for enough of a gap

in one of the older codex's, didnt they say in the fluff that fenris had a giant tyranid egg in one of their treasure vaults?

Perhaps but we won't ever know because GW doesn't focus on the detail likes that. Fun to argue about however as the Emperor not fixing it makes for some interesting skub.

It'll be interesting to see how BoP, Inferno and the 1ksons codex coming up manage to completely contradict each other though in the next year or so won't it?

Now there is none, back in the day every librarian treaty was written by Magnus, wich included of course making pacts with daemons to gain power, which is bad, the rune priests back then draw their powers from their own psychic reserves instead of using a daemon as a channel with the warp like modern librarians, which is why the thousand sons were in horror when during the attack on prospero their "familiars" reversed back to their normal nature and fuel them with so much warp energy they became into chaos spawns, but they named this process the "flesh changes"

>and you're saying Fenris's Nature spirits arent daemons?
That's allegorical you idiot like the wind spirits of the white scars, they don't deal with actual spirits because that shit is bad mojo.

Leman Russ was a hypocritical bitch.

The Rune Priest's psychic discipline seems more akin to a feral-worlder witch's sorcery than the mental channeling of the Psykana's Psykers. Of course, the tradition seems to lend itself to a great deal of caution with that power.

I would imagine they are a fringe element that's accepted as a tolerance-stretching canon in the Imperial design simply because of the first-founding nature of the Space Wolves and the numerous differences they have from a normal Space Marine chapter. It might even be fair to say they're not really true Astartes underneath, but a little of something else. Still, like how the Machine Cult is considered Imperial Canon and how the Ecclesiarchy canonizes the occasional strange beliefs that still falls in line with the Imperial Creed (mostly because it gets results), Rune Priests might be recognized by the Psykana as a strange but otherwise acceptable form of Psyker discipline, possibly a relative of sorcery but the Inquisition never gets in too deep with the Space Wolves.

Still, Sorcery and Psykers have already had their differences laid out in 40k. Sorcerers can be anyone who studies the rituals and practices that govern working with the empyrean, while psykers have the power to wrench it open with their brains. Of course the most powerful sorcerers are generally also psykers, but not always.

The problem could had been easily solved if they just stopped using their psychic powers, which were the responsible for the flesh changes

Basically a sorcerer uses symbols and pacts with demons so a sorcerer is more like a warlock/wizard whereas a psyker uses innate power and (hopefully) non-evil warp-stuff ala sorcerer and the other guys an idiot

>Sorcerers can be anyone who studies the rituals and practices that govern working with the empyrean, while psykers have the power to wrench it open with their brains. Of course the most powerful sorcerers are generally also psykers, but not always.
The obvious answer, for me, to explain this is that there obviously exists sorcerous rituals that can turn you into a psyker or just give you certain psyker abilities. Some may see the folly in doing this and damning yourself that much quicker while others just want more power.

>psyker uses innate power and (hopefully) non-evil warp-stuff ala sorcerer and the other guys an idiot
The empirium knows it can't survive without psykers so it's gotta come up with excuses why one type of warp fuckery is 'more evil' than another type of warp fuckery, or better yet, isn't warp fuckery at all, honest.

I absolutely love how this user laid it out nice and plainly as it was and no furfag can even argue with this

>Head canon.

Pretty sure Wolf King confirms it. Heck, Vulkan and Horus when they talk about what they think the Emperor role for each Primarch say that Russ was the watchman over his fellow Primarchs.

So where you get off saying it's headcanon, you piece of shit, you don't know better than the Primarchs.

>Russ got the first hit Lion got the last. Not much else needs to be said.

It was after a long fight that, IIRC, lasted for days. Both were wounded and Russ left himself wide open when he stopped fighting and laughed.

Had the fight continued as it was can you say for sure who would won. No? Then screw off.

>Russ got his shit pushed in surprise surprise. Implying Angron can't just shrug off some bolder fire and end Russ for good.

Everyone, except Angron, thinks that Angron lost that one. Russ positioned Angron where he wanted, no Primarchs cannot shrug off bolter fire. Horus and Morty didn't, Dorn went missing when he got himself cornered by CSM, the clone of Horus despite wearing Horus's armor sustained grievous damage from bolter fire.

>other guy not wanting

Cut his meme. Magnus at first didn't want to fight. When he saw his legion dying, he decided to fight for reals and lost. He drew upon the full power of the Warp and battered Russ with blows that would have flattened a mountain. He still could not get Russ down.

>At least we now know why he runs off into the warp to hide for 10k years.

We haven't gotten there yet.

There happy? I just got here and I would have responded sooner if I seen the post.Thanks for directing me to it.

have you heard of the Psychneuein? they're the reason why Prospero was a deathworld

With all that said Russ is still and forever will be remembered as the dumbass that was too easily triggerd and was quick to violence.

Lion was smart and actually wanted to plan ahead before attacking while Russ was triggerd by the rebels insult and wanted to storm the place like a retard.
When the Lion killed their leader before Russ could do so he was so butthurt because of "muh honor ! I swore to take his head !" That he just went up to Lion and punched him, starting the fight.

He burned an entire world and forced an entire legion to fall because "his message wasn't answerd" and because "Horus said so, so it must be the emperor's will!"

Point is that him and his chapter are a bunch of whiny little children that always resort to stupid headstrong tactics and are easy to anger.

Wolf King is resolves around the Wolves and Russ repenting and changing their ways.

So they got better.

>He burned an entire world and forced an entire legion to fall because "his message wasn't answerd" and because "Horus said so, so it must be the emperor's will!"
nah

Big E told him to burn prospero because the sons were pawns of chaos, just heavily in denial. That's why the Custodes and SoS were there in the first place. Custodes to show his tacit support of the wuff invasion, SoS to shut down the sorcerous shit.

>b-but black library said
Read yo burning of prospero booklet, nerdling.

Here is the thing about life.

It doesn't matter.

Despite what people say you can't make up for your mistakes in any meaningful way. No matter how hard you try your fuck ups will remain fresh in peoples minds till you or they die.

Your great triumphs will be made insignificant and your insignificant mistakes will be made great. What you did to fix anything will be forgotten but the reason why you had to try and fix will be remembered.

That is how the world works and if any one tells you different they are fooling themselves.

40k galaxy is shit and therefore this will remain.

> can't come with a counter argument
>proceeds to shitpost and project himself
user hit a nerve there didn't he? Your true colours are for us to see now, take your emotional baggage back to /r9k/

Wow. Dude, if you seriously believe that, then I am sorry for whatever the world did to you, but you might want to think about getting help.

Unless you are bait.

>emotional baggage
Nope. That's just how shit works.

How old are you if you don't mind me asking?

The weak throw up their hands and cry "that is the way of the world" when they discover that nothing good comes without challenge.
Don't bother, he'll just go on about his "redpill" or other such nonsense.

>being this bitter about life
Geesh user I live in a third world country with limited economic growth and even I'm not this cynical.

Go fuck yourself.

I spent 15 and a half years and a small fortune running a youth group.

One false accusation latter and people cross the streets to avoid you because of the whole "no smoke without fire" mentality.

And what happened to the kid and his whore mother that made the false accusations? Sweet fuck all.

>bringing your own emotional problems to a plastic guy discussion
Again go back to /r9k/

You got outwitted by a child, congratulations.

Seems like it's a good job they did though, even if you're not a kiddie fiddler you clearly have a poor attitude

As the other user says, bringing up your entirely non-game problems

The original point was not about plastic men it was about will Russ be remembered for doing good or his fuck ups.

Answer is fuck ups.

Because that's the shitty end on how the world works and 40k is supposed to be shitty end exaggerated.

But yes your probably right, personal experience has no place in a discussion on a subject.

>it's another Space Wolf hate thread
>People STILL whining about Prospero

Right, here, it's pretty simple.

Rune Priests are not Morons reading forbidden tomes and touching the butthole of chaos to see it wink.

Russ is remember for his fuckups, but an Imperial Tank is named after him.

I can't actually think of any "Fuckups" besides The Lion fight.

Not really. Russ thought that Magnus attitude towards the Warp was pure hubris and that he was tempting fate.

No one in 40k cares about the burning of Prospero and the Imperium don't consider Space Wolves a bunch of thugs for burning Prospero. History loves a winner.