Does anyone here have any experience with Kings of War?
I have a friend who really wants to play, he says I can just proxy the models until I find an army I like. Does anyone have a good 1500 point Forces of the Abyss list? Price is no object for the moment.
If you are just proxying or using empty movement trays, take a "one of each" force, buying a core unit and then whatever monsters, warmachines, or characters that unit allows before buying the next core unit. You're testing at this point. No need to optimize.
His army is optimized, I'd like mine to be as well. How about this list?
vb.manticforum.com
Check out /awg/ thread. We used to have regular KoW threads when WHFB was axed and KoW 2nd Ed came out with perfect timing, but as it turns out there's not much to discuss. There's not much lore and the game isn't fundamentally broken, so nothing to argue over.
Will post list critique in a second, just bumping thread.
OK, first off
>"Optimized list"
Not so much a thing.
1) Deployment is as important as your list, remember you get only 6 turns of play.
2) You're supposed to play a random game mode determined AFTER making your list, and this is intentional game design. You can optimize a list for a few modes, but you may screw yourself over in specialization. You typically want a flexible list over an "optimized" list.
3) If he says he has an "optimized" list, then he's got one gamemode in mind as an introduction to roflstomp you for shits and giggles.
Secondly, use:
kow2.easyarmy.com
And hit "PDF" button on the top right when you're done. The PDF includes an explanation of relevant rules on the bottom.
I've done that and attached your list.
OK, first off, you've got a lot of points on artifacts. Always tempting for new players to just put stuff like Strength on their already harder hitting units.
Two artifacts I would suggest which are always useful:
1) Caterpillar (Ignore terrain). Hindered charges are a bastard, and being able to ignore terrain with one of your harder hitting or longer charge-range units is generally more awesome than squeezing an extra 15% damage out of it under ideal conditions. Best suited for units with a longer charge distance and/or Thunderous Charge.
2) Elven Wine (Nimble). Nimble is often underrated by new players. Good for two reasons: Circumventing blocked charges, and countering flying units.
Secondly, you don't have a lot of durable rank-n-file. Meatshields are important in this game. I'd actually use the Abyssal Guard with 5+ Defense, rather than take the Crushing Strength. You've already got one Can-Opener (the Tortured Souls), and at 1500 pts I doubt he has more than one unit requiring serious anti-defense.
Thirdly, big expensive heros/monsters. Typically these aren't recommended until you're playing 2000+ pts. Typically I wouldn't recommend putting major offensive ranged spells on units which shine in melee since you're lucky if said spell gets fired twice assuming you realize it does more damage when it's in melee. It's got a charge-range of 20 inches which is about the range of said spell anyway.
Fourth, don't underestimate taking the cheapest Inspiring units, or putting the Inspiring Talisman on a cheap non-inspiring Hero. There some decent ranged-attack artifacts which are great to put on flag-bearers. The points saved add up to an extra regular unit or more. You don't need to have every Hero unit be kick-ass.
Fifth, take a Flying Individual if it's possible for your army. These are explicitly for harassment, and tactically different from non-individual Flying units.
I just got this list online, so if it's that flimsy, I'd rather play something more durable. I'll use that website when I get home and try to put something together. Do you have any units/items that you really like or that have turned the tables for you?
It's not THAT flimsy, and it's fairly flexible too. The most I can criticize are some of the artifact and options choices.
Do you know what army your friend will be using?
Elves. What I've seen of it is 2 small sets (regimens?) of Palace Guards, a 40-man block of archers and one of tallspears, 2 bolt throwers, a smal block of dragon riders, and a Dragon Kin Lord. He wanted to play this game for dragons, so advice on how to use them effectively would be helpful because it would make him happier with them.
Good to hear I can use this list, I'll definitely make changes. I didn't really look at it that closely, or I would have changed the Guards to defence anyway.
>Turned the tables
It's ALL situational, and like I said half the game is just in deployment phase since the rest of the game is maneuvering within 6 turns. You'll end up making counter-lists back and forth or end up with very flexible lists.
If you want to put together a list, you need to consider these things:
Chaff (Usually troops)
Anti-chaff (Often ranged)
Bog/pit (High nerve, low defense, classic zombie horde)
Anti bog/pit (High Att, no/poor anti-Def, eg Succubus)
Armor (High defense)
Anti-Armor (anti-Def bonuses)
Forward/Scout (For certain game modes, and Nimble+Speed tactical advantage)
Long charge/area denial (Cavalry, shambling flyers, surge-lists)
Healing (Some armies are annoying good at it)
Ranged/gunlines (Not seen as often)
Terrain control (eg something scary ignoring terrain)
Harrassment/Hunter (Anti-warmachine, anti-archer, either Nimble or flying hero usually)
etc etc etc
>Elves
>Archer horde
He'll buff them. Classic Death-Star. You can do it with Twilight Kin too.
>Dragon riders
Dicks dicks dicks. They fly and hit hard, and are good forward units when needed.
>Palace Guard
They're expensive and don't look too special but don't underestimate them in 1:1 combat, but these aren't the centerpiece of his army.
Undead (typically), but any surge & flyer capable army can counter his build. You want to harass his archer block (keeps them from firing) which is best done with a flying individual. The most butthurt Elf players will bitch about Undead's flying Def 6+ individuals cockblocking their deathstars. You want to bait his flyers or otherwise control their best moves to minimize their damage. Flyers are hard to deal with, the easiest strategy is to keep a reserve shambler with surge backing it, but not all armies can do this. They expose their own flanks to attack yours though, another good anti-flyer list uses layered rank-n-flank both to control landing spots and guarantee they get buttfucked on landing.
Cont.
Cont.
Overall, you don't need a lot of anti-defense since Elves have low armor. Higher Att is more desirable where possible, but send any (2) or better against the De 5+.
I make reference to points cost a lot. If you can make his points spent wasted, you're doing good.
Now, your Succubus are a major threat to his archers with Stealthy. Puts his archers on par with other armies making them shoot Ra 5+ which is wasting the archer's extra cost. Exposing your Succubus to his archers or making them his best shot isn't as bad as exposing your other units, HOWEVER they may get annihilated in a single unlucky volley regardless with the low Def/Nerve (Assume Ra5+ averages 6.67 hits against 3+ defense = ~5 damage average = 27% chance waver). Wavering = imminent death typically. His archers are at LEAST 250+ points, so killing them is priority if kills count for winning in the game mode and otherwise neutralizing them is priority. Eggs in a basket. Your Archfiend is also a major threat to his archers with a charge-range of 20" AND flying AND consistent damage (low Me+ rating).
The Drakon riders are a huge threat and 2nd priority for pts, they can move 20 inches in one turn and have De 5+ so expect him to send these wide around the side of the board to mop you up from behind OR if he can he may be able to fly right over one of your units from the front if it's got a short charge-range (eg anything below 10" move). They're not as cost effective as your own cavalry if you can deny good use of his Fly. You may have to keep one deployment for last / after his Drakons for the explicit purposes of homing in on his Drakons. The cavalry is OK at this, though they're often better suited for frontal charges & wide flanking.
The Palace Guard you're best flanking or meeting 1:1 and praying. Otherwise expect them as backup/support for his star units or expect a classic center-march with them.
That's about all that comes to mind at the moment.
Glass cannons vs glass cannons. Should be entertaining actually.
>Exposing your Succubus to his archers or making them his best shot isn't as bad as exposing your other units
On second thought actually, this is dependent on if they're buffed.
20 Att, Ra 5+ becomes 6.66 hits
20 Att, Ra 4+ becomes 10 hits
Then Defense:
De 3+ is 4.5 or 6.6 damage depending on Stealthy.
De 5+ is 3.33 damage even with Ra4+, though Ra4+ can be really swingy/brutal.
So chaff for your Succubus is better than nothing, but nothing is better than any other De3+ would get against his archers anyway. If chaff then give nimble artifact to Succubus. Assuming chaff survives (unlikely here), melee only is preferable for co-opt charge, otherwise ranged is preferred since they're more likely to survive getting in range for one volley. If no chaff, then speed artifact or ignore-terrain depending on deployment, though Ignore Waver might be OK too for cheap. If you're going to kill his archers rather than simply harass to neutralize, do it FAST so you can engage others ASAP.
Consider healing artifact on cheap inspiring banner unit as a relief to his archers damage.
Any 10" charge range will also decimate his archers if Succubus are better put elsewhere.
>Any 10" charge range
*10" move aka 20" charge range I mean
His 24" range means he'll get one volley no matter what, so consider giving a cheap bait target.
>>If you want to put together a list, you need to consider these things:
>etc etc
Forgot another item on that list:
High quality rollers (eg, usually low Att but great Me+ and bonus effects making damage more likely. Typically monsters or elite units like your Archfiend).
Because a unit which isn't a gamble is great in the right place.
Thanks for all your help, that's an amazing amount of information. Just one more question, if you don't mind. We don't really have access to terrain, so the battlefield is just a flat table. It's probably around 3' by 3', small enough that the bolt throwers have basically infinite range. Would you happen to have any advice on modified strategy when line of sight is almost always available and there isn't any difficult terrain? Should I just make some cardboard cutouts to be makeshift terrain?
You can print out
a.pomf.cat
If you want some cheap and easy terrain. Cardstock or something sturdy is ideal, but they should do their job regardless. At 1500 points that table size isn't too bad, but you really should get a larger playing area if at all possible.
Use makeshift terrain.
The balance is designed assuming there's terrain. Check out the section of the rulebook that outlines typical amounts of terrain. Get a good variety of terrain types.
Warmachines dominate if there's no terrain, then flyers and chaff take precedence because of it.
>that's an amazing amount of information
Not really. Don't be afraid to crunch numbers, it's pretty easy math for average hits, average damage, etc.
If you still want to experiment with lists, the I'd go two ways which I've seen Elves weak to both. Glass cannons and horde/swarm lists. Elves are either fast and/or hard hitting typically.
... wait shit I miscalculated that bit about the archers. Forgot to account for re-rolling 1's.
Alright, I'll set it up. I'm sure the size charts are in the rulebook, so I think I can take it from here. Thanks again for all the help!
>... wait shit I miscalculated that bit about the archers. Forgot to account for re-rolling 1's.
So, normally each face has 1/6 chance. Rolling a 1 twice is the only way to roll a 1 if rerolling once. Therefore that's 1/6*1/6 aka 1/36 chance. Therefore rolling 2-5 must be 35/36 chance, aka 7/36 each while a 1 is 1/36, where normally a d6 is 6/36 each face. Small but significant.
Ra 4+ to Ra 5+ penalty WITH Elite:
Ra 4+: 20*(7/36*3) = 11.67 hits, not 10.
Ra 5+ : 20*(7/36*2) = 7.77 hits, not 6.67
For De3+ Stealthy: That's going from 7.8 to 5.2 damage
For De4+ Not-Stealthy: ~5.8 damage
For De5+ Not-Stealthy: ~3.9 damage
So Stealthy De3+ is between De4+ and De5+ against Elite Archers. Piercing changes this, eg dropping effective De to 4+ then Stealthy is arguably better than De5+.
BUT, shittier Ra+ is also less swingy, meaning the probability distribution is tighter and you're MUCH better protected against sudden luck rolls. The REAL quality of Stealthy though is reducing roll quality itself is good. Notice that low Me+ having high Att is disproportionately more expensive comparing average damage dealt per unit cost (Yes I made a spreadsheet on this a long time ago). Consistent damage and high-quality-rolls are an expense.
>I made a spreadsheet
Do you still have it? I'd be very interested.
I lost a lot of stuff back when my HDD shit the bed and I was a month or more behind on a backup. I can't find it in my KoW folder, it must be gone.
It was just an excel that calculated average hits, damage, and curve distribution. If I pirate M$Office again I could make another.
LibreOffice has an Excel clone. If it isn't too much trouble, that would be a really cool thing to have, for us and maybe even other anons.
I'm working on a Iron Beast and a Battle Shrine both from League of Rhordia. Wondering if I should stop playing Kingdom of Men and get into Rhordia.
Is Rhordia any good? I miss the horde of Knights KoM gives me, cavalry with pistols or handguns, berserkers, etc. But I'm interested in the Battle Shrine and see its synergy.
Also, what minis would you recommend for Dogs of War?
For Dogs of War use an Empire Free Company or an equivalent like the Frostgrave soldiers. Better yet have a regiment of the OOP WHFB Dogs of War.
Vague consensus seems to be that KoM is slightly on the weak side, and Rhordia is strong, without being absolute top tier.
weird, I haven't had that many matches with Rhordia yet, but soo far I have a better win ratio with KoM. Maybe I'm still not getting Rhordia or I need to play more.
My problem with the Free Company is that they don't look like Def 5+. Generally is my problem with Dogs of War, they seem like really beefy pikemens and I don't see many options of those.
>Vague consensus seems to be that KoM is slightly on the weak side
My ass. I want what you're smoking.
KoM is intentionally one of the more flexible lists, and I've yet to see something fully counter the full potential that KoM can field FOUR different classes of cavalry in one faction and build a competitive list around it.
Rhordia is fun if you've got the units for it, or want the flavor.
I have a bunch of 15mm models how do i adapt them for KoW?
All that matters is unit footprint, as long as your unit has the same dimensions it'll work fine.
Bump for this.
It's loads of fun, I spend more time playing than talking about it though, unlike my other games.
Scale the unit footprints by nearly half and you're golden, a lot of people out there play kow at smaller scales, works well.
I really liked it when I tried.
Simple, easy to pick up, wealth of tactical options.
6mm is true connoisseurs scale!
What I do for 6mm kings of war is this
10man Infantry= 40mm (Frontage) X 20mm
20man Infantry= 40mm (Frontage) X 40mm
Hordes all sizes are 80mm (Frontage) X 40mm
Legion all sizes 80mm (frontage) x 60mm
** No 5 man units.
Large Infantry Regiment 40mm (Frontage) x 20mm This is to represent 3 models to a unit.
Large infantry Horde 40mm (Frontage) x 40mm this is to represent 6 models to a unit.
Cavalry:-
5man Cavalry= 40mm (Frontage)x 20mm
10man Cavalry= 40mm (Frontage) x 40mm
Warmachine = 20mm X 20mm
Change all measures from inches to cm (including table size)
Inches to CM is about a 2.5x decrease. Are those base sizes also a 2.5x decrease?
Not exactly, but it sticks to standard basesizes, so you dont have to fiddle with custom bases.