D&D 4e General /4eg/

>There is no problem taking most of those feats in addition to tiefling support.

Opportunity costs are non-negligible. In a game with no free feats, a level 12 pixie or kapak draconian monk probably wants:
Level 1: Melee Training (Dexterity)
Level 2: Unarmored Agility
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Superior Implement Training
Level 8: Crashing Tempest Style
Level 10: Improved Defenses
Level 11: Implement Focus
Level 12: Starblade Flurry

I see no room for Hellfire Blood from levels 1-12 here, making it a mid-paragon purchase at best, in favor of another paragon feat.

Now, *this* would be a good use of tiefling racial feats on a revenant Desert Wind monk. The opportunity cost will be a high: two feats and locking yourself into a sickle with one hand. (At paragon, since you will want a dagger in one hand for Starblade Flurry, you will want to check with your GM on whether or not a Belt of the Brawler will activate Crashing Tempest Style.) Still, you can improve your damage a fair degree this way, although it will be delayed.

I imagine it would be better at mid-paragon with more feats to spend and with Lasting Frost and Wintertouched on the metaphorical table.

>Crashing Tempest Style
>+2 to flurry damage
You don't need this.

Pixie size shenanigans aside, what exactly are you doing with kapak draconian?

+2 flurry damage, which stacks with the increase from a Ki Weapon, is not bad at all. At heroic, it can help take down a single enemy. By paragon, it applies to two adjacent enemies plus whichever enemy you ping with Starblade Flurry.

For a single feat, it certainly pulls its weight.

For a single feat, yes. For a feat in addition to a weapon slot, not so much. It would certainly be lower on my priority.

The defence adjustments on this are incorrect.

Then by all means, inform the thread of the correct ones.

>what exactly are you doing with kapak draconian

Instinctive Flight pairs well with monk movement techniques for unmatched melee mobility. It also makes Athletics mostly unnecessary.

The club can be a Ki Weapon club.

While I can certainly see Slashing Kama Style and Icy Clutch of Stygia paying off by early- or mid-paragon, it is a tougher sell at heroic. For a Desert Wind monk who starts with Dexterity 18+2 and Charisma 14+2, all Icy Clutch would do from levels 1 to 7 is ping for 3 cold damage in a delayed fashion, and that requires being paired with Slashing Kama Style.

I don't understand why class options like desert wind monk exist

Sorcerers clearly show that they understood that single-element focus needs resistance piercing, but desert wind monks are a single-element class option focusing on one of the most commonly resisted elements that gets nothing of the sort

You need a kama and a dagger for slashing kama and starblade flurry, not to mention the heavy blade requirement on firewind blade if you're using that. Weapon types matter for monks.

Of course, this matters a lot less if you arcane familiar into an item swapper with that wizard multiclass.

Why would you take a multiclass that requires 13 int as a class that pretty much invariably dumps int?

Correction: Nearly all devils have fire *resistance*.

Or, you can drop Slashing Kama Style in favor of a club and Crashing Tempest Style.

A Firewind Blade is an awkward choice for Desert Wind monks, as I say in , because they lack implement proficiency with it and only some of their powers will actually trigger the property.

By level 11, a pixie or kapak draconian Desert Wind monk should be wielding a dagger in one hand for Starblade Flurry and a club in the other for Crashing Tempest Style.

Slashing Kama Style seems more suited to revenant tiefling Desert Wind monks. Either they drop Crashing Tempest Style altogether, or they keep it under a favorable GM ruling for the Belt of the Brawler.

This is an issue with the sorcerer (elementalist) as well, which is bizarre, given that the Player's Handbook 2 sorcerer has resistance-piercing while being less dependent on one or two damage types.

Desert Wind monks are neutered by any form of fire resistance/immunity. Nearly all devils have fire resistance, all demons have variable resistance, and many more monsters resist fire. A Gift of Flame can help, but that is a level 7 alternative reward at minimum, and resist 10+ fire will still be quite a bother.

How come it seems like every time there's a 4e general, you're always talking about desert wind monks?

Because, for whatever reason, they seem to be a popular topic for others to bring up. In this thread, they were brought up first by .

I personally prefer Iron Soul monks for being well-rounded striker/controller/defenders. They also do not immediately fold in the face of fire resistance/immunity

I'm trying to install the character builder from the resources in OP's post, and I ran into a problem. I followed the instructions provided up to running CBLoader.exe the first time, and it seemed to download all of the .part stuff okay, but when I try to run it again to launch the builder itself, I get pic related. Am I doing something wrong?

Speaking of iron souls, how would you go about strengthening it's defender qualities? Perhaps hybriding battlemind?

Simple, desert wind monks are awesome fluff-wise and frustratingly subpar mechanics-wise

I wish monks got more non-standard-action attacks, when I play a monk I want to play a fighting-game character, but 4e monks operate more like a Dynasty Warriors character

I would not bother due to the high opportunity cost of such a thing. Rely on your Iron Soul Flurry of Blows alone for stickiness, and spend your feats on the usual monk options.

Being a revenant Iron Soul to abuse revenant durability will help with raw survivability, though not your ability to attract enemy fire.

I would not call Desert Wind monks "subpar." They have the highest single-target damage out of all monks due to Blistering Flourish pairing with Desert Wind Flurry of Blows. It is simply that fire resistance/immunity will neuter such a monk.

If you want to see the worst Monastic Tradition in the game, look no further than the near-worthless Stone Fist. It is a laughingstock of a monk build, especially when compared to the premier monk build that is Iron Soul.

Stone-fist is borderline unnoticeable, especially since an unarmed fighter does basically the same thing fluff-wise while being a far stronger pick overall

Personally my favourite monk spec is centered breath, because deadly draw abuse is super fun, and the monk powers with wisdom riders are the most fun monk powers to use

My favorite, most memorable, and most MVP 4e character of all time was a hobgoblin monk, Stone Fist...

>hobgoblin stone fist
>poorly supported race
>doesn't even have the right stat bumps
>MVP
must've been a pretty mediocre party

What is so terrible about stone fists? I would think being the only monk with a fullpowered MBA would give it an edge

Stone Fist Flurry of Blows has negligible effects, and given that Dexterity 18+2 and either Melee Training or Internalize the Basic Kata is standard for optimized monks, Stone Fists are not particularly special in the melee basic attack department.

That seems like awfully little to render it a "laughingstock"

The edge it gets from having a good MBA is counteracted by being a purely damage-focused spec on one of the most control-oriented strikers

By going stone fist, you are choosing to not utilise what makes monks good

I was planning a goofy combo in a game, but upon realising it doesn't work I'm trying to see if there's any other ways to achieve it and/or evaluate how much it'd be worth if I can poke the GM into letting me have it with some extra investment.

I'm playing a Dragonborn Warlord and thought the Honorable Blade PP seemed cool. My Breath is cold, but I'm in a party with a lot of Fire support, so I was going to add on Adaptable Breath and Admixture Breath to make my Dragon Breath damage Fire/Cold and then transfer that to all my attacks.

However, Draconic Blade specifies one damage type, and as far as we can see the properties of Admixture Breath don't transfer in that way. You can argue it, but RAW it doesn't seem to work.

My question is, is there a way to make this work, and/or if I was going to poke the GM into allowing a custom feat or some such, how much should it be costed at? I'm already putting two feats and a PP trait into it.

Later on in the PP you also gain a resistance to one of your Dragon Breath damage types, but allowing the transfer of properties to apply to that seems like it'd be just too much, so I'm not particularly concerned on that front.

Well, the funny thing about draconic blade is that it stacks with any damage type the attack already deals

So if you get a fire or frost weapon, and use it with draconic blade of the opposite damage type, you can apply both damage types

You can just ask for a flame tongue weapon

Is weapon the only way to do it? I was hoping to not use an item slot, since I'm going for the Silver Dragon Regalia item set later on. Still, if it's the only way then I'll figure it out.

Compare Stone Fist to Iron Soul.

The Stone Fist uses Strength, while the Iron Soul uses Constitution for day-long durability and fuel for the party's Comrades' Succors.

Stone Fist Flurry of Blows, as a baseline, deals 3 (this never improves) + Strength modifier damage.

Iron Soul Flurry of Blows, as a baseline, deals 2 (this likewise never improves) + Constitution modifier damage and prevents the target from shifting until the start of your next turn.

Even at level 1, that 1 extra damage pales in comparison to the shift denial. As the levels rise, that 1 damage becomes more and more irrelevant.

A Flaming Weapon, a Flame Tongue Weapon (better), or a Weapon of Summer (best of all) will all confer fire damage and the fire keyword onto your attacks.

That said, I have little idea what constitutes "fire support." Sarifal Feywardens? A shaman with Scorching Sands?

If it was any easier to deal fire damage with all attacks, we would be seeing many more Firewind Blade builds.

Additional question-

If the GM ruled that Honorable Blade plus Admixture let me make all my attacks dual element anyway, how powerful would that be? The game is mid to low optimisation, for reference.

Most of the time it isn't that big a deal, especially not for a warlord who probably won't be using firewind blade + frostcheese

For tieflings, mostly for hellfire master.

It would probably be fairly strong, because then you could make use of both a Firewind Blade and Lasting Frost. As well, your attacks would bypass the resistances of enemies that lack both cold resistance and fire resistance; resistances are normally the bane of Firewind Blade and Lasting Frost builds.

However, I would not call it "overpowered" due to Adaptable Breath and Admixture Breath consuming two feats, and due to the Honored Blade taking up your paragon path. That is a heavy opportunity cost.

We can be thankful that one cannot be both an Honorable Blade and a Morninglord, because otherwise, the Radiant Breath feat would get out of hand.

Hellfire Master has dubious compatibility with Slashing Kama Style, because it is up for debate whether the ongoing damage originates from the power (Desert Wind Flurry of Blows) or from the feat.

DM with the fullblade avenger player from last thread here.

I want to give the PC a radiant weapon so I can make even more Jedi jokes. Please talk me out of it.

No

>and the Firewind Blade is an awkward choice for Desert Wind monks.
Well, unless it's wielded by an eladrin.

Dancing thorn style + firewind blade is pretty darn strong

Shame you have to give up a +2 in your secondary stat to get it

A better way for a Desert Wind monk to use a Firewind Blade would be to take the Gritty Sergeant background benefit, though that will rule out Auspicious Birth/Born Under a Bad Sign, and the monk will still be dealing fire damage only with *some* of their attacks.

I still do not advocate a Firewind Blade because not all of your attacks will be dealing fire damage.

A better loadout for a heroic-tier pixie Desert Wind monk would be a Goblin Totem dagger in one hand and a Ki Weapon club in the other.

For a heroic-tier kapak draconian monk, a Staff of Ruin in one hand and a Ki Weapon club in the other would be ideal. (Yes, this is legal, as monks have proficiency with quarterstaffs and staff implements are quarterstaffs. You need not be able to attack with it. This interpretation is supported by the online Character Builder, which even lists "staff implement" as one of the default implements in the marketplace for a monk.)

By the paragon tier, a monk wants a dagger for Starblade Flurry. Whether or not the kapak draconian above can keep Crashing Tempest Style depends on how their GM rules the Belt of the Brawler.

Yes but dancing thorn style is an untyped +1 to hit that only requires you to hold a longsword, not use it, which means it can stack with an accurate ki focus

That's a lot of accuracy

If you want to use Dancing Thorn Style, the best way to go about it would be to play a revenant eladrin Iron Soul or Desert Wind monk with the Gritty Sergeant background benefit.

You should check with your GM whether or not holding the longsword in both hands will grant you a +1 bonus to damage rolls. Page 270 of the Rules Compendium is ambiguous on this matter:
>Versatile: Versatile weapons are one-handed, but creatures can use them two-handed. An attacker that does so gains a +1 bonus to the weapon's damage rolls.
>A Small creature, such as a halfling, must use a versatile weapon two-handed and doesn't gain the bonus to damage rolls.

In the absolute best case scenario of GM rulings, you are a revenant eladrin Iron Soul or Desert Wind monk with a Ki Weapon longsword held in both hands, gaining both the +1 versatile bonus to damage rolls and the 1 extra Flurry damage from Dancing Thorn Style, and also availing of Crashing Tempest Style by wearing a Belt of the Brawler.

This is all fairly interpretation-dependent.

Ah, but that involves playing a Revenant, and playing a revenant is tantamount to cheating

A race that gets any feat support it wants, and a level 16 encounter utility power as a baseline at-will class feature, man, that sure seems fair

By that logic, we should also ban pixies, draconians, Battle Cleric's Lore on anything but a pure-classed cleric, hybrid assassin (executioner)|warlock characters, hybrid druids (sentinel), hybrid paladins (cavalier), and anything else that is of a questionable power level even at level 1.

I have played in groups where that actually was the case (more or less).

Yeah sure, that seems fine

Not liking revenants is a personal thing of mine, but I wouldn't complain about not being able to play them, pixies, hybrid clerics or essentials classes, or draconians, the power of all of them is a bit uncomfortable, like it exceeds what is expected of the game. Sort of like playing a 3.5 Bard in a party that otherwise consists of a Fighter, a Paladin, a Monk and a Rogue.

Those are rather common bans actually

Common by whose standards? 4e games are quite rare, especially judging from Roll20 statistics, so the sample size is quite low.

The most prominent 4e game on Roll20 at the moment, "The Guild," allows all of the above.

My experience with roll20 is a bunch of DMs that hate any race that isn't human/elf/dwarf/halfling and don't even consider essentials material, believing it to be universally broken. Out of irl 4e games I've been in (three), two have flatly banned all essentials classes, one has banned revenants and pixies. I don't think draconians were even an option back when I was playing

Being fair, essentials classes should be banned because they're either boring or shitty. Aside from the feats that whole line was fucking awful.

Do such GMs also ban Battle Cleric's Lore on anything but pure-classed clerics, if they have even heard of Battle Cleric's Lore?

At the very least, banning draconians, pixy and revenant had happened in basically every single 4e game I played (I allowed them when I DM'd, mostly just to see what'd happen; the answer is, the players didn't pick those options).

Either way, this is a pointless tangent. Adjusting a build down (usually) isn't hard, and doesn't invalidate the work put in, so if your "best" options aren't allowed, just find the ones that are, which sometimes happens to be an interesting brain teaser.

Their hybrids are okay, and it's a fun exercise to try build them in ways they weren't meant to be built.

Never joined the tolkien races only roll20 games to find out, but the irl DMs allowed battle cleric's lore on hybrids at least. Made a fighter|cleric for one of those games

The problem there is that the hybrids give you about 80-85% of the class features of the full class, which, considering that they don't actually break the game like that, just shows how poorly made the essentials classes are.

I love hybrids, but the hybrids I really love are the ones that need a bit of finagling to get working, rather than cheap success like Battle Cleric's lore or essentials hybrids

>Adjusting a build down (usually) isn't hard, and doesn't invalidate the work put in, so if your "best" options aren't allowed, just find the ones that are
Having specific races/classes banned invalidates whole builds. It's not a small thing like being denied a +2 damage item or something; losing a race/class choice locks you out of whole swaths of options. It's possible you'll lose the core mechanic of your build. You can't adjust for that, you can only throw the whole damn thing away

Right, but this usually isn't the case when you ban Pixy/Revenant/Draconian, unless we are talking about some very specialized builds that are seldom optimal anyway.

Speaking of "hybrids built in ways they aren't meant to be built"... How about a Tiefling Slayer MC Paladin for Wrath of the Crimson legion? Let's say, going into Polearm Master.

There's very few builds rendered totally worthless by banning Revenant, because revenant are valued for their racial stats and racial abilities, not their feats, the feat value comes from stealing from another race. So when they're banned, you just play the past soul race of your revenant character

This is also true for Draconians, who are just Dragonborn variants, so banning them just means you play an O-dragonborn instead.

Pixies are the hard ones, they have valuable racial feats and interesting, unique features that aren't OP, meaning that banning them will completely screw up some builds, mostly streak of light chargers and teeny, tiny defenders

What? That's a shitty build, and not even a hybrid.

A lot of revenant builds stop working without revenant. There's those that rely on their ability to stay up past zero, and others that rely on applying their stat bonuses to a race that otherwise doesn't have the right bumps

You very rarely NEED stat bumps in the right places for a build. Not to say it doesn't help immensely, but it's almost never outright required

Besides, the ability to stay up past zero is something anyone trained in endurance can pick up at level 16 anyway

I don't know many games that start or even progress to level 16. Out of all the 4e games I've played I've only been in paragon tier twice, and neither time as high as 16

I meant essentials classes, not hybrid, my bad. Also said "things they are not meant to do" not "good", although I'm not sure why you consider it a bad build.

Good point with the undying, but the stat bumps are just a bonus, not integral (usually).

I've been in a couple that started in epic, and one that started at 15 and progressed to 20

Level 20 dailies are fun stuff

Polearm feats use strength. What's the point of swapping it out for charisma to get what strength would give you anyway?

Martial cross-training is also unusable for charisma builds, and it's normally a great option for slayers.

Getting 18's without racial boosts is real hard, and impossible if you have dual stat requirements, which is the majority of my hybrid builds

What the hell are you trying to build that needs 18/18 in either con/dex or dex/cha that ALSO needs feat support from a race that doesn't have the right stats?

I meant in general, but I get your point

They use DEX/WIS/STR. The only ones you'd be kinda missing out on would be Polearm gamble and Spear Mastery. Polearm momentum is DEX / WIS, and surprising charge is DEX.

Note none of those ability scores are charisma.

Sure, but DEX is your secondary anyway.

Plus, you don't really have to be going for polearm shenanigans, the important part is combining Polearm Master with the Paladin's AoE marking abilities on a striker.

Instead of doing that, you could take a fighter utility power like kirre's roar to mark, and then use martial cross-training to get come and get it so you can actually put enemies where you want them.

Polearm master's mark punishment is an immediate action, anyway. You don't actually need a large area of marks.

I meant to say this build should take polearm gamble. Polearm momentum is optional and more difficult to use.

>which, considering that they don't actually break the game like that

They do not quite break the game, but the packages of the hybrid druid (sentinel) and the hybrid paladin (cavalier) are remarkably generous by the standards of hybrid classes. The hybrid assassin (executioner) is mediocre unless paired with the hybrid warlock or another basic attack-spammer, thus bringing out the best in Attack Finesse.

>Tiefling Slayer MC Paladin for Wrath of the Crimson legion? Let's say, going into Polearm Master

Could you perhaps explain your logic behind this? The tiefling would not appear to have any noteworthy synergy with the fighter (slayer). Wrath of the Crimson Legion keys off Charisma, which is normally worthless to a slayer.

Polearm Gamble requires Strength 15 and Wisdom 15, and the fighter (slayer)'s striker damage keys off Dexterity. Tieflings have +2 Charisma, +2 Constitution or Intelligence. This is a terribly MAD build.

The logic was simply to do something the Slayer wasn't meant to; that is get CHA to attack instead of STR, and since that involved the paladin multiclass, may as well take advantage of your newfound marks.

I didn't consider Polearm Gambit's requirements when I made that post, merely what I could make with that.

A better way to go about this would be a tiefling fighter (knight) multiclassed into paladin. Take Wrath of the Crimson Legion. Prioritize Charisma and then Constitution and Dexterity. Use a shield.

You should now be able to enjoy a fairly durable multitarget defender who can lay down a sanction in a close burst 5 once per encounter... on top of Glowering Threat and Kirre's Roar, which means three rounds of mass-marking every battle.

This will still pale in comparison to a regular fighter (knight) as the levels go on, save for the brief renaissance at level 11 caused by Martial Power 2 basic attack feats, but such is life as an Essentials martial.

It's a decent off-Defender, I'll give you that, but it's nothing special. Even though you can probably pull it off to decent extents, you're still in need of optimizing your damage, since it's not particularly stellar.

Besides, if we're talking optimization of hybrids, I'd say either Knight or Oghma Warpriest are the best, the former due to its punishment being very good and having a Fighter base is an amazing running start; the latter due to free MBAs from using Healing Word.

The fighter (knight)'s punishment is not much better than that of a fighter (weaponmaster) with the Shield Push feat, and that is assuming the knight is constantly in Hammer Hands.

The cleric (warpriest) is mostly obsoleted by the cleric (templar) with Battle Cleric's Lore, even taking into account the fact that a warpriest can retrain their encounter attack powers. While Oghma warpriests certainly have impressive skill monkey capacities, granting basic attacks with Healing Word is merely a level 16 paragon path feature, so I am afraid that is not a major selling point. The vast majority of warpriests are outdone by Battle Cleric's Lore templars with Strength/Wisdom or Constitution/Wisdom builds.

I quite like Knight, especially because of Eladrin Knight.

Usually I advocate multiclassing warlock for the paragon paths, buuuut looking at the more standard Swordmage multiclass (for intelligent blademaster) PPs, Sigil Carver caught my attention. Note how the level 16 feature doesn't require you to actually mark with your aegis.

Bump

.... which doesn't matter for the Knight, admittedly, because you can't have the aegis of shielding feature.

Cat soldiers, kobold soldiers... furry soldiers rule.

Hope canon felinids are this.

They're Hengeyokai - Dex+Wis/Cha. So it fits if you go ranged in any way.

I'll be blunt - a party that's just basically an army squad would be extremely fun. Especially the adventures if it's something like Eberron during the war or whatever.

>Henjeyokai
Wat dis.

Literal fey catboys, foxgirls, dogboys, sparrowgirls, etc.

>pixies
Not my pixies, nooooooo!
>draconians
Literally never seen them played, ever.
>Battle Cleric's Lore
Also fine with a hybrid with a scale / plate using class, really.
>Hybrid [any essentials class]
That's a good idea to ban.

>bunch of DMs that hate any race that isn't human/elf/dwarf/halfling
>Encourage players to play any race, I'll work it into the setting.
>After years, finally get a party of elf, eladrin, dragonborn, thri-kreen and warforged.
>mfw

>current party is half elf, elf, dwarf, dragonborn, eladrin, human
>human is a cunt
>eladrin is snooty to his "devolved" cousins and "the half(th)ling"
>dwarf grouses about all the pointy eared fey twats he's surrounded by
>dragonborn believes it all to be a challenge from Bahamut to show courtesy to the outlanders
>half elf don't give a fuck
>elf goes from party girl to basic bitch in the blink of an eye

Dragonborn sounds like a bro. That deserves free drinks at every tavern.

He is a bro.
He also takes minimal shit from everyone, and has stood up for, and against, everyone when things got out of line.
He is the beating iron heart of the group, and I thank him almost every session for getting them into working order.

Sounds like a proper Dragoborn

The foundation a party can stand against, fits very well with the natural tendency of Dragonborn towards honorable adventure