Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

/ourguy/ edition

Discuss the lore and viability of Warcraft as a tabletop setting.

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First for the Best Empires

>Gurubashi snakeshitters ruining the Amani's aesthetic borders

>trolls ruled most of the EK outside of Khaz Modan
>troll ruins only exist in places that trolls still live

So if Night Elves are mutated Dark Trolls, why can't they be Shamans?

Did they automatically lose their connection to the Loa when they evolved?

shamans have to revere the elements and their ancestral spirits. Night elves did not, they were too busy worshiping Azshara and demon cock

Wasn't she the last of their line of rulers, and the demon thing only became a thing under her reign?

Is Elune a Loa? Do the Loa dislike monotheism? Do they dislike Titan blood? Surely their culture didn't just change overnight. There's got to be some ruins that are an in-between stage of Troll and NElf architecture somewhere, right?

Dark Trolls never really had the type of civilization that the Gurubashi, Amani and Drakkari had. Any transitional architecture was probably centered around the Well of Eternity and dismantled to build Zin-Azshari or destroyed during the WotA.

the troll concept of Loa probably slowly transitioned into their worship of Elune and later druidism, but that was mostly supplanted by their dependence on arcane magic during the time of the monarchy

How would you write a camping set in the plaguelands during vanilla WoW?

I was thinking of stranding them and having them slowly build up a base to hold back the undead. They would have to work to survive and fight off both the scourge and Scarlet Crusade. Figured I would have a Horseman as the main antagonist as they ready to fortify what is left of the Argent Dawn.I can't figure out an appropriate ending though.

Thoughts?

>I can't figure out an appropriate ending though.
anything other than plot armoring him to death with the Light
kill them all, so they may bow to the one true king

user, that's the Bad Ending.

Do you want them to go to Super-Hell?

Have them kite him all the way to Ironforge and lure him into the lava.

You could use Baron Rivendare since he was the Horseman in charge of the Undead side of Stratholme.
Don't write an ending just yet. Let the players decide their ending. Are they good players who think strategically and capture and purify one strategic point after the other? Give them a good end.
Are they munchkins who only see everything as a grind for more XP and just try to bash their way through each encounter? Give them

I like this idea! I was going to use the Eastern Plaguelands as my basis. So the Argent Dawn is losing the war against the Scourge and the players have to help them turn the tide of battle around.

Meanwhile the Scarlet Crusade is fucking up both sides. I really wanted a big Scarlet Crusade presence as two of our players are playing Forsaken. I like the idea of having them having to kill other undead and people who see them as no difference.

I was also thinking of having a small Druid outpost. They would be trying to find ways to cleanse the land.

Still all just loose ideas in my head.

>Do you want them to go to Super-Hell?
they don't go to Super Hell until their soul is separated from their body
just don't die

Does anyone have a link to this study? I'm interested.

>Doesn't require it's members to be Undead
>Had advanced technology and magic
>Had a strong government that can look over the empire with ease
>Was open to all races
>Had the support of the citizens of Lordaeron in a revolution
>Was Arthas and Kel'thuzad approved

How were the Scourge bad again? At least when put up with the Alliance Cucks and Dindu Nuffins in the Horde.

>damns its victims to turn into mindless ghouls and then end up in Super-Hell when they're inevitably destroyed, at which point the Void gits torture them 24/7
>edgelords with no sense of aesthetic in architecture, have to steal from Nerubians who steal from Tol'vir
>only exist because Ner'zhul is an idiot and Kil'jaeden is a sadist
>their leaders have been an Orc who spent his whole life on a ruse cruise, a rich kid who got rused by said orc, and a third-degree burn victim
>wrecked the architecture in Silvermoon just because, didn't even knock
>created Sylvanas "deploy the Plague" Windrunner
>couldn't even kill one city of ice trolls without the trolls deciding to be idiots and eat their own gods

Yes, I deliberately exaggerated all of that in the worst possible light, why do you ask?

>>edgelords with no sense of aesthetic in architecture,
the Scourge citadels in Icecrown are unironically the best looking buildings in WoW other than the Horde's post-Wrath architecture

>Horde's post-Wrath architecture
There has never been any horde architecture worth jack shit.

I really liked WoDs caveman steampunk.

>ywn voyage across the stars with you bro KT, exchanging bants as you unleash the plague on unsuspecting Legion Worlds.

I like the Tauren architecture

The wooden stuff anyway, the leather buildings that are intended as permanent fixtures seem sort of silly

>Alliance Cucks and Dindu Nuffins in the Horde.

I would love to see at least one of these threads without this bullshit.

Just one.

Hope is an illusion. No one is coming to save you. You will never leave this place. There is no way home.

Orcs dindu nuffin, though. Muh Loktar.

Kel'thuzad is best boy.

>not liking THE SPIRES OF ORGRIMMAR

the fact that Kel'thuzad has an apostrophe in his name always seemed weird since he's the only human that does
did Blizzard plan on making him an orc originally or something?

>I was also thinking of having a small Druid outpost. They would be trying to find ways to cleanse the land.
Make it a joint Druid-Shaman outpost, as both organizations would be interested in purifying the land and making it habitable again.

Hey, Forsaken architecture is excellent.

Salty Alliance or Horde fag found.

>Garithos
>Garrosh

They are the same character: A strawman there to force a conflict. Who both get defended by Warcraft style Pol posters.

"Lines" aren't really a thing in a culture where everybody lives forever. Maybe I interpreted it wrong but from what I read of Chronicle Azshara was both their last and their FIRST Queen.

The demon thing only came late in at the end of her reign but pretty much from the start they cut their ties with nature magic entirely, because the Highborne who controlled the society weren't able to keep a monopoly on it the way they could with Arcane, and the Ancients made them uncomfortable because they were basically the only things the Kaldorei Empire couldn't dominate.

>Is Elune a Loa? Do the Loa dislike monotheism? Do they dislike Titan blood? Surely their culture didn't just change overnight. There's got to be some ruins that are an in-between stage of Troll and NElf architecture somewhere, right?

Not sure about architecture, but there is an ancient cloth robe on the Broken Isles in Legion with flavour text that it has religious symbols of both Elune and several Loa.

Garithis is funny because he was such a ridiculous RACIS strawman yet in the end he was right in a lot of things and it conflicts with his offscreen achevements. Getting the alliance remnants together, liberating Dalaran, trying to push on aganist the undead etc.

Garrosh was just a plot tumor growing since BC , liked by no one but somehow steadfastly held in the limelight by blizzard ultimately consuming the better part of two expansion packs.

Garrosh was fine until Cataclysm
if you never read the Shattering, he seems like a tough but fair ruler who's undergone genuine character development while under the tutelage of Saurfang, but in the books and MoP he's a complete psycho that fucks up everything he touches and the disparity between the two makes no god damn sense

Garithos was the most successful Alliance commander in the third war, and he treated the elves like untrustworthy fair-weather allies they had always been.
Garrosh believed Grom was some great hero, developed daddy issues because of it, became an orc supremacist and caused a lot of trouble for everyone involved.

Blame Thrall for giving him ur daddy was great-speech instead of ur daddy was batshit insane berserker who only did one thing right in his whole life-speech.

>destroying the Gorian Empire wasn't right
nice try Glub'thok

This. Grom was a retard. Charging off to fight humans in Kalimdor, drinking demon kool-aid again to kill Cenarius, doing all sorts of reckless shit. Thrall venerated and idolized him as his big bro, and that even got extended to the Warsong clan launching a war of conquest aganist Ashenvale. He turned a blind eye to them dragging the horde into another was it eventually losts.

I really like how Garithos is built up to be a complete asshole to make Kael look good but he still comes off better than Kael, just because of his incessant bitching

>WAAAAAH I WANNA GO AND FIGHT THE SCOURGE
>WHAT? FIGHTING SCOURGE IS A DESPERATE STRUGGLE OF SURVIVAL? WAAAAH I DUN WANNA DO THIS ANYMOREEEE

God, fuck Kael, hated that pussy so much.

Grommash would likely never achieve that if not for Kargath Bladefist and Shattered Hand, which likely have succeeded in killing the Emperor in the main timeline.

>Send Elven forces without any heavy weapons by keeping all the Dwarves with himself
>Saying that accepting aid of the Naga equates with treason only because they are not part of the Alliance
Sure makes Garrithos look like reasonable man. Sure.

>>Saying that accepting aid of the Naga equates with treason
>>only because they are not part of the Alliance
The same Naga who served a demon(-ish) lord, performed an Earth-shattering ritual and killed Kael's men? Yeah right.
>Send Elven forces without any heavy weapons by keeping all the Dwarves with himself
It's not like Garithos took the dwarves on a picnic. He was facing another undead army on the main fornt. Sometimes you need to weaken some positions, or you'll lose everything by spreading your men too much. That's war for you. Kael knew they were not winning, but was still itching for a fight, and he got one.

>who served a demon(-ish) lord
I give you that
>performed an Earth-shattering ritual
Only affected Northrend, with Malfurion learning of it only due to his druidic powers
>killed Kael's men
And he accepted their aid, basically using Naga like mercenaries
You know who else used non-Alliance mercenaries to stop Kael'thas from leaving Azeroth in attempt of wiping the Blood Elves due to imaginary treason, which he accused them off only because they used (the horror!) troops they didn't had from the start?
I'll give you a hint: his rank is High Marshall only by virtue of being highest ranking noble around.

>performed an Earth-shattering ritual
daily reminder that this was only considered wrong because of retarded global warming analogies

if Icecrown Glacier melted it would be completely contained by Crystalsong Forest and the lower foothills of the Storm Peaks, nothing would happen to anyone else

Not to mention that Azeroth could more than deal with a few meters of extra sea level, considering the shit it went through later.
Malfurion and Night Elves barring Wardens once again confirmed or flailing idiots.

>Only affected Northrend
There were noticeable quakes in Dalaran, and a continent-shattering spell would catastrophically affect the entire world.
Are you saying the secret tower defense level is actually part of the story? Cause I think it isn't. And if it were, I don't remember seeing probably demonic creatures among the mercenaries, though I may be wrong. The fact remains that disobeying direct and explicit orders is mutiny in most armies. Kael was a foolish, pampered, whiny prince, completely unsuited for leading men in war.
I don't know who this "High Marshall" is. Garithos was styled "Lord" or "Grand Marshal", both being titles he had before the war IRC.
I believe its point was destroying the whole continent. I may be wrong though.

>I believe its point was destroying the whole continent. I may be wrong though.
the earthquakes were meant to break up Icecrown Glacier so the Frozen Throne (and therefore Ner'zhul's soul and Arthas' power) would be destroyed

>Kael was a foolish, pampered, whiny prince, completely unsuited for leading men in war.

Which still makes Garithos an idiot, because if you haven a good army led by an idiot, you don't tell the idiot to fuck off and die somewhere, to either try to get the idiot out of there or you at least give him good advisors.

And when the idiot actually commits mutiny, you don't fucking sentence the entire army to death.

Yes, Grand Marshal
From Ask CDev 3
>Can we get some information on Garithos? Where he was from and on whose orders was he acting? Was there any significant event in his past that caused his hatred of non-human races?
>Grand Marshal Othmar Garithos was the only son of a baron who ruled over lands in what would later be the Eastern Plaguelands that bordered Quel'Thalas. While his father ruled from the town of Blackwood on the shores of the similarly-named lake, Garithos joined the army as a knight during the Second War, where he saw combat in Quel'Thalas defending the elves' homeland from invading orcs. While he was in Quel'Thalas, however, a small band of orcs broke off from the main invading force and burned his home town to the ground, killing all of its inhabitants in spite of the valorous defense marshaled by its lord. Othmar's family perished doing their duty, defending the homes and lives of their subjects. He blamed the elves for the loss of his town and family, believing that the elves diverted forces away from the Alliance's true goal: the defense of humanity alone. After his father's death, Garithos was awarded his title and continued his service in the armies of Lordaeron. By the time of the Scourging of Lordaeron, he had attained the rank of Grand Marshal and was the highest ranked surviving military officer in the region, promoted not necessarily due to his own abilities, but his father's reputation and title. Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos amassed a small army of volunteers and conscripted civilians, and gave them the mission that he assumed the Alliance should have always had: the preservation of humanity above all else. Despite the ad-hoc nature of his forces, other states recognized him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron's government and certainly the strongest warlord in the area. As such, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel'Thalas sent him aid, ignorant of his intolerant policies.

>The observatories repaired by the Alliance Remnants discovered that an undead strike force was coming from the west. Garithos returned to the front and left Kael'thas awaiting orders. Then, an emissary sent by Garithos informed Kael'thas that he had to engage the strike force from the west, but also recalled all foot soldiers, cavalry and support teams to the front, leaving Kael with only his blood elven troops.[8] Garithos had hoped that the elves would fall before the Scourge, and no longer be his problem;[13] the missions given to Kael's greatly reduced force were intended to be suicidal, impossible for the elves to complete.[14]
>[13] ^ Blizzard lore posts "... The remaining Elves were placed under the command of a man named Garithos, who was grossly intolerant of other races and drove the Elves into near-suicidal situations in the hopes they would no longer be his problem."
Date: 29 September 2005 WoW Forums Post by Caydiem
>[14] ^ Ultimate Visual Guide, pg. 146

I swear to God these arguments always go the same way. Kael was left to hold an entrenched position and told to destroy the undead. He wanted a fight, and he got one. Dying is a risk when you're at war, especially when you're on the losing side.
The problem is that the elves, while not numerous, were loyal to Kael and to Kael only. Removing him from command wouldn't help. Nonetheless, Garithos handled the situation poorly. You're right that he could have left some advisors and that killing all the elves was too much. He's a dick and a bigot, but a successful commander. There is no need to downplay either of his sides.

>And if it were, I don't remember seeing probably demonic creatures among the mercenaries, though I may be wrong.
wow.gamepedia.com/The_Crossing
It is as canon as it can be, given that it was the only mission that shows how Blood Elves got to Outland.
Garithos employed:
Outlaws
>Bandit Lord
Races that are either not allied with Alliance or outright their enemies
>Forest Trolls
>Ogres
>Centaur
>Goblins
>Pandaren
>Red Dragons
Primitive races, beasts of higher intellect, elemental beings
>Arachnathids
>Thunder Lizards
>Revenants
>Elementals
>Sasquatches
>Gargantuan Sea Turtles
>Rock and Siege Golems
By all means, Garithos committed higher treason by employing those races to wipe out entire army of Blood Elves instead of using them against Scourge, than Kael'thas accepting aid of the Naga, which was only excuse used by Garithos to put all Elves to the sword due to his old butthurt.

Except that he intentionally left Elves to die by forces they knew were also coming at Blood Elven positions, with taking all forces possible. You can't argue with facts.

The Elves go to Outland in a cutscene if you don't unlock the level.
He was the man in charge of the Alliance, and he gets to decide who to ally with. Kael had been warned not to consort with the Naga.
I acknowledge he was a dick and wanted them dead. The fact remains that not obeying your superiors is mutiny. Kael may have held without the Naga long enough for Garithos to return, or maybe he would have been killed. We can only speculate.

>The problem is that the elves, while not numerous, were loyal to Kael and to Kael only.

Hence
>or you at least give him good advisors

Hence
>You're right that he could have left some advisors and that killing all the elves was too much. He's a dick and a bigot, but a successful commander.
Let's leave it at that. We're already running in circles.

Conclusion:
Talking about Garithos is a beat up horse and there is no point about repeating the same discussion over and over.

Also, Troll Architecture, Best Architecture.

Except Garithos wasnt his superior. You, like most blizz writers, keeps forgetting that the Alliance is a fucking alliance. Kael was helping humans against a common enemy, he can choose to leave the fucking alliance if he wanted. Sticking around and trying his best to complete these missions was supreme loyalty.

Even by comparing positions of their respective kingdoms Kael outclass Garithos by miles. Kael was prince and basically de facto king of Quel'thalas, why should he obey some literally who nobleman of an inferior race?

Fuck Garithos, if blizz can stop sucking human dick for once Kael might have just said fuck it and went back home with his army and leave then monkeys to become zombie food.

>tfw WoW mountains are so tiny that there'll never be an entirely new troll city zone discovered just beyond the clouds

Because blizzard failed compltely at writing. The mere fact that people are talking about and liking Garithos shows this. He was meant to be Darth Hitler, a completely unlikeable asshole, there to make golden boi Kael look great. And they failed.

Also, it was a military operation. Garithos was a Grand Marshal outranking everyone. Kael was just a bitchy princeling of a fallen kingdom He was just treated as the unreliable allies high/blood elves and the crack addicts they were.

I'm all for shitting on Blizzard Writing any chance we get, but you are pretty off there.
Some people here like Garithos because this is Veeky Forums.
Most people in 2003 and to this day think that Garithos was an asshole retard and got what he deserved.

I've seen it suggested that Mar'gok being born at all is one of the divergence points between the WoD Universe and Main Universe. MU Gorian empire collapsed a full generation earlier, which is why the Ogres were so much more disorganized and primitive in our Draenor when the Horde took over, and why Cho'gall was more or less in charge, and notable for being the first 2-headed ogre of his generation.

So has anyone here actually played that WoW RPG based in 3.5? From what I've read it seems a decent effort, but still largely shit with classes and races poorly reflected by the mechanics which didn't work so well anyway.

God Tier:
Genn Greymane
Varok Saurfang (is he a racial leader now?)
Emperor Shaohao

High tier:
Lor'themar
Baine Bloodhoof
Council of Three Hammers
Malfurion

Meh tier:
Velen
Mechatorque
Thrall
Vol'jin

Shit tier:
Sylvanas
Varian Wrynn
Gallywix

literally worse fucking character in the entire franchise:
Tyrande

>post-Cata Varian not at least Meh Tier
>Tyrande worse than Gallywix

I don't get the joke.

Tyrande really one of useless leaders.

Varian is insufferably anime. Wolfheart ruined everything.

And Gallywix is a meme joke character. Tyrande is just awful

>Tyrande gots martyr'd to make Varian seem cooler in MoP
>Then things get even worse in Val'sharah as she looks for her husband

I'm okay with Gallywix being above her, but in no way can Sylvanas "Worse Warchief than Hellscream" Windrunner is better than her.

> He hasn't played Legion
> He hasn't suffered the Tyrande-Memefurion love story.

I struggle to see why Lor'themar is so high. he does nothing, as much as I wish this wasn't the case.

Lor'themar deserves a high spot for the sole purpose of telling Sylvanas to fuck off and leave BElf coroses alone.

KT needs more erotic liturature

What's daily life like for a pure Val'kyr anyway? Is it fun?

Also, is it only Vrykul and maybe humans who can become Val'kyr? What if a Draenei proves worthy in the rites of ascension? Does being an alien preclude them from it?

They get to ride a lot of cocks.

I like the idea of Varian, since at the time he was introduced, it felt like no one was really pointing out the Horde's pre-Garrosh crimes against the Alliance. I just wish the writers were better so that Varian could have been a great character.

Izzat it? Bit disappointing.

Did Varian ever tell Anduin how his grandfather died? Or how his namesake died?

I think Anduin was too busy whining about his dad being mean and then running away to Aunt Jaina (pre-MOP) or Uncle Velen.

Medivh's curse and a duel with Doomhammer, respectively?

Yeah, you'd think he'd have been told that at some point.

Tell me about the Gnomes. Why are they the worst Warlocks?

>Malfurion not in shit tier
>Tyrande was fine until the awaken Malfurion mission in wc3
>Tyrande was ok until she was made African

Because they are the worst race and should be left to be genocided by their leprosy.

>the best leader
>shit tier

Fuck you, Varian was the greatest character created in wow

Thats not how you spell Kel'Thuzad.

He even has the sexiest voice

you get to fly around admonishing people for not being valorous enough until someone enslaves you to raise the dead
sounds like a 7/10 life desu

I agree with that, as Grommash is responsible for killing Ogre Emperor that was clearly not an Ogre-Magi (just one head), and back in the Tides of Darkness, Kargath should have been a generation older than Grom by appearance alone.
>Need a hand?
>Do you feel lucky, punk?
youtube.com/watch?v=AWr6rpuHKd0

Garithos was Mop"s Garrosh before WoW was a thing
>Alliance exists for the purpose of betterment of humanity
>All other races should obey humans
>Survival of humanity is more important than anything else, even if it means wiping out races that ensured humanity's survival at its darkest hours, just because they don't do it his own way

The only bad writing regarding Kael was making him join Burning Legion without any of foreshadowing, when TBC had more implications of Illidan being Legion's ally, while Kael'than and Vashj somewhat implied (at least to me due to their Vials of Eternity) to plan to create their own Well of Eternity in Outland, with Vashj's Nagas preparing body of water,n while Kael'thas gathering more raw mana with Mana-Forges,

>Varok Saurfang (is he a racial leader now?)
Pretty much, as he's in achievements for "killing" Horde leaders, though in his case it's not killing and more
>Damage High Overlord Saurfang until he humors you by pretending to die.

Anyone put any thought into running a game based around Mean Streets of Gadgetzan?

I like how this set really seems to incorporate nearly every corner of Warcraft. Hell, even Goren from Veeky Forums ended up showing out.

I like how everything can be made to fit warcraft, even prohibition era gangsters. Also, that draenei waifu they added is top tier.

yeah, when the technology for the setting is "whatever seems good" You can do anything from generic fantasy to [It Ain't Me starts playing] in the same breath and have it work somehow

>draenei waifu
where?

Its on another image from the set.

post it then.

I just realised that bunny is there.
What's the deal with that?

there are bunny people in MoP
They were ignored after because they were shitty comic relief that everyone hated

they were super primitive, not intelligent and humanoid.

so are murlocs, and yet Sir Finly Mrrgleton exists