It's a "GM wants to play the worst game ever written" episode

Thats not DnD

Virt you have my permission.

That's not Dead Reign.

That's not Pathfinder though

But that's not the game I hate the most.

Why play savage worlds when you could just as easily sit down for a game of GURPS

>catalyst game labs
I've heard of them but not familiar with their work.

Shadowrun & Modern Battletech

I've played BRP for CoC before there was Trails, and later Sormbringer because we wanted to try something old-school RAW.

It's a shit system by modern standards, like every other system from he 20th century (except OtE).

Now a guy is using it for his home brew. WTF?

That's not Fate, OP.

They're doing a great job of not fucking up Battletech. Their campaign system is really smooth.

I... I like SW.

But no fun here I guess...

>BRP/CoC
>bad system
It's probably the most venerable system in all of Roleplaying.

I'm getting this sneaking suspicion like this is a falseflag. I have never hated a system so much that I'd start a thread over it. Maybe OP is a fan of SW and just wants more discussion of it and he's hoping to harness Veeky Forums's innate need to argue about shit to spark said discussion.

Because I'm not a fag nor a memester.

But op that's not Dungeon World

youtube.com/watch?v=i7ThHHOxlck

DW is a flawed system but holy shit that post is bad.

There's been a progression of anti-Savage Worlds posts and threads. This is the logical end of that progression.

Which is strange, because Savage Worlds is usually softly praised by Veeky Forums

It's not VTNL either.

I don't think calling SW worst ever is even in the vicinity of fair, though it does have certain "features" that I fucking hate (fate points/bennies and reliance on miniatures, both of which take people out of the game's world by constantly calling attention to a concept that exists outside the narrative or to a physical object).

Why/how do bennies take players out of the world? I can see miniatures in a way taking you out, but how does a re-roll system do that?

A system that lest you use some manner of metaphysical abstract trump card to get out of bad spots takes players out of the world because the trump card is a thing outside the game world's internal logic. It's not a superpower, it's not a spell, it's not an ability or piece of equipment or anything that "exists in the game", it's just some external nonsense that bails you out X times per session. A reroll mechanic that was an explict part of the game's world would not have this problem (for example if there was a magic amulet that saves you from three deaths).

You're also rolling twice to see if it does damage. Toughness was a mistake

The game is balanced around having them, mate.

>it's a gm tries inserting his politics in a ham fisted manner while a player brings a subtle counter

Bump

Why do you consider SW to be "the worst game ever written"? Its flaws are few and relatively minor, so what gives?

>because the trump card is a thing outside the game world's internal logic
Never even played Savage Worlds, but so far as it's concerned it's because they're the protagonists of a pulpy story--them being able to more reliably risky things is 100% in line with the fiction's internal logic and the tone of the game.
It's not entirely unlike how players in many games, by way of having class levels, have for more in the way of resources than virtually any level-appropriate NPC or creature. It's an assumption of the tone and composition of the fiction to be played reflected in mechanics.

And outside of narrative, it's supposed to encourage larger than life action from the players because they aren't purely gambling--they still have a degree of influence, so playing it safe, thus defeating the adventure novel, pulp action tone the game is designed to embody, is not really worth doing.

Savage is not nearly popular enough to make an attack thread. Iunno. Doesn't feel like it adds up.

Isn't that most games? If countless people manage to play theater of the mind with other games that don't abstract ranges and areas, I'm sure you could manage with SW.

>just as easily

After I prune out the sixteen million options I don't want from the core book.

>hating on meta resources

Pure autism. Every time you roll dice you're reminded you're playing a game.

Virt botched a horror roll and lost a character to a heart attack.

Which is one of the two big problems I have with Savage Worlds. They're so vital to survival that you can't use them for their nominal purpose, which is rerolling unlucky rolls. It might be different if rerolling with Bennies gave you some kind of boost the way it does in Mutants and Masterminds, like you ignored wound penalties or your minimum roll was a 4, but it's just not as attractive an option as saving them for when someone gets an inevitable knockout punch against you.

Not that this makes it a bad system, just that it's a problem that turns what could be a good system decent.

well, SW is not a simulationist game. Your objection is that it has non-simulationist mechanics.

>Not that this makes it a bad system, just that it's a problem that turns what could be a good system decent.

I think it makes a good system great, since it takes care to actually incorporate them into the game. Also you're seriously overstating their importance. They're there for the same purpose as in any other game: saving your hide and giving you an edge beyond simple numerical superiority over the NPCs.

That's what the Wild Die is for.

You only need to save one and the gm should be giving you more.

The only problem I see with bennies is that every GM seems to have a different idea on how often he should be handing them out to player and being given too little or too many drastically changes the game.

Savage Rifts is rule wise worse than Rifts if you can belive it, they took a game that has creatures on par with gods and shoehorned in balance on everything, now the diffrence between the strength of a greater demon and a juicer are gone, long range missiles go about as far as a boom gun, mystics somehow are holymen, took all the fluff and sanatized it.
Fuck Savage Rifts, wish I hadnt kick started it for so much. Gurps or d20 system would have scaled better to rifts.
SW is to short ranged and limiting a system for rifts, trappings be damned "a bolt is a bolt, is a bolt" doesnt ring true i my mind
Boooooo

>it's a gm tries inserting his politics in a ham fisted manner while a player brings a "subtle" counter

>It's a scam victim's remorse post

>The only problem I see with bennies is that every GM seems to have a different idea on how often he should be handing them out to player and being given too little or too many drastically changes the game.

I think this problem comes up with any rpg that relies a lot on GM fiat as part of the mechanics.

I have never once played Savage Worlds with miniatures, and never once have I had an issue.

When I played deadlands we had minis and terrain to show a general idea of things but no grid, it was just a visual representation of a battlefield sort of. It was neat actually.

>OP
user-kun, that isn't how you spell FATAL you fucking faggot!

But virt likes FATAL.

And the guy who obsessively calls everyone virt is a pedophile.

> kickstarting anything

Bennies are a mistake. They literally reward players for calling a session end when they run out of bennies, or just turtling for the rest of the session. They are a horrible idea.

You're missing the point you autistic faggot. And so is he. The issue with meta-resources is that they cause characters to metagame by making decisions based on abstract bullshit from outside the game. A character might choose not to attack because the enemy's AC is too high, this can at least be explained by him sizing up the monster and deciding not to fight it. But bennies have zero link to the game world. They are a dissociated mechanic. They do not belong. Please read Justin Alexander's article on dissociated mechanics before you attempt to comment in this discussion any further.

>Bennies are a mistake. They literally reward players for calling a session end when they run out of bennies, or just turtling for the rest of the session. They are a horrible idea.

This. Shitvag fanboys are never going to admit it though. They literally can't sit through an RPG session without having to cheat somehow.

Rifts was shit anyway. If anything, Savage Worlds tore off the veil of autistic rules to show it for what it really was. Sorry.

Actually its flaws are relatively major, as evidenced by a character with a shotgun and the marksman edge who can just stand there and literally autohit with a +4 bonus versus TN 4 and kill everything because 3d6 is a fucking shitton of damage.

Toughness is the only decent part of the game. Not "if it does damage" you moronic mongoloid, it's if it actually manages to kill the creature. You're still hurting the guy, just not enough to stun / kill him.

Why is it bad? Because you disagree with it. Because that would make it pretty bad, wouldn't it.

Did a person just post that the best part about Rifts is the rules?

Damn son.

It's true, though. Which says a lot about how shitty Rifts is.

I agree completely. I hate these elements that pull me out of the game world and make me think about the meta-game.

Bennies/fate points/whatevers are not like classes because classes can be easily explained within the conventions of the game world (a Gladiator is a guy who fights in the arena, not some abstract metaphysical concept).

Bennies just end up being used as backup hit points all the time anyway, defeating their stated purpose. It's a waste of time and imagination.

Oh, I agree with you in every respect.

I just happen to agree with 99% of the planet when I say that Rifts is actually awesome, meaning that the rules of Rifts are actually amazing.

>It's a "GM invites us to play his custom RP game and wants one of us to be the GM so he can play his own game" episode

Fuck you Mikael. You and your shitty sci-fi adventure

"It's a ________" is the worst meme since "It's [current year] therefore ______".

Should be a bannable offence. My mind ignores anything starting with "it's a..." on Veeky Forums now.

If you ignored it, how'd you get so mad?

just took a look at it: it's still a simulationist approch to RPGing. ONLY simulationist players need to be exclusively in character. A narrativist player has generally no problem working on the narrative via meta-currency, a gamist player just wants to beat the game.

>But bennies have zero link to the game world.
Only because you're too incompetent a roleplayer to give them one. Bennies and similar mechanics represent luck, fate, and heroic determination. So making decisions based on them is making decisions based on that gut feeling that Lady Luck is with you, or that you can succeed despite the odds - or that dread that you're about to press your luck a little too far, or the gut instinct to back off.

>Metagamer desperately trying to justify metagaming
Is it that time again already?

Yep

I love bennies personally, but I'm also a huge fan of pulp.

To me, one of the most common elements of pulp is luck running out. Characters aren't really blind to their fates, they don't ask "Why did this happen to me", they ask "why did it have to be today".

Watch pulp fiction again and picture Samuel L. Jackson spending his last benny on that miraculous survival. He knows it's up for him, and he's got to get out.

That's what Savage Worlds is to me.

>Metagamer desperately trying to justify metagaming
Guess it really is that time

>metagaming

I bet you justify the inspiration mechanic in 5e as well.

Pure fucking filth inhabiting this board, might as well take it back to Veeky Forums if you don't care about the integrity of the game. Ever hear of World of Warcraft? You'd love it.

>theatre major desperately trying to pretend there's no G in RPG
Is it that time again already?

>in order to play a game you must first cheat at the game

>t. shitvag worlds

It's not cheating if you use the tools a different way to win.

I bet you're the kind of person who plays a thief who steals from the party and then argued "it's what my character would do!" when they get angry.

I bet one of your ancestors was saying something like that right before getting lynched for cheating at a card game

Nah. He got in a shootout and managed to flee.

Oh, is that how your family ended up on the west coast? I only ask because lying cheating intellectually dishonest bullshit are all from the west coast.

>living on worst coast
East side motherfucker.

>how dare you fold because I grinned when I looked at my hand!
>you're only supposed to make decisions based on your own cards!

So far I've seen:
>savage world hate thread
>pathfinder "shitseeker" thread
>"meta-game transaction points are shit" thread 50377197

The janitors got the other obvious ones:
archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/deleted/deleted/type/op/

It's actually looking like the deleted smug loli thread was a bot that will respond to anyone posting in it with "smart" preloaded insults.

>Shitseeker retard pretending his autism tantrum was a bot

That's some next level damage control

Dude, I'm the savage world supporter, not the pathfinder supporter. I demand you respect my desired insult language and check your insult privilege.

You're shitposting, you gotta stop.

If this person is shooting at a person standing within short range, in open field, with no armor.

Just standing there. Being shot.

Then yeah, the shotgun will probably kill them. As it should.

>I just happen to agree with 99% of the planet when I say that Rifts is actually awesome, meaning that the rules of Rifts are actually amazing.
Oh, man, so this is what pure delusion looks like...

>Not knowing when to hold 'em or fold 'em
>Not knowing when to let it ride
>Not trusting in the heart of the cards

In all seriousness, I hate FATE points because they are so bland. I give my players the ability to change the story with narrative points.

So, rather than just rerolling, if a player wants something to work or to save a botched system, they can tell me "I can smell alcohol on the guard's breath. He must be drinking on the job." and then exploit that. I reserve veto power (refunding any spent point) if it's something stupid, and allow the players to veto with a 2/3 majority, but we've never had to use it.

>narrative points

t. metagamer

Your life must be hard for you to get so upset at things so trivial. Good luck overcoming your self-doubt.

On the contrary. His life is so easy that he's never developed perspective. This is one of the worst things that's ever happened to him, which is why he's so upset.

>It's not metagaming because the player is also paying points to be the GM sometimes!

Pathetic desu

Did you pay the required FATE points to project that thoroughly?

Stop breaking character.

t. simulationist

I thought you were okay with metagaming though