Lvl 20 wizard can turn into dragon, fly, stop time and bend reality

If you spent half as much time working on making friends as you do making these daily "D&D sux" threads, you could be enjoying a better system already.

It's MTGfags and their edition. Never had this problem in Badic, Advanced, or 2.

It's Veeky Forums, user. Any thread featuring martials X casters is going into 200+ territory.

Fuck it, let's make this thread productive. What kinds of abilities, feats, or powers should a level 20 fighter have? Use D&D, Pathfinder, whatever system you want just let us know. We can theorize and refine together

Honestly I think martial class BABs (and to a degree ability modifiers) should go up exponentially past level 12. A level 20 fighter should be pulling crazy levels of +X to hit

He should be fucking huge i think. What the point of being epic fantasy warrior if you cant be huge?

dúblés of truth

Maybe martials take the option to get swole at level 14 and gain all the benefits of going up a size category but none of the penalties?

Or hell, if this is actually fantasy, let barbarians pull a Master Roshi and hulk out for a number of rounds per day that doubles all the applicable stats

>pick realistic class
>doesn't want it to be realistic

This is why games where classes exist or at least limit you so much suck, by the way. A good game is not the one that let's martials cut castles in half with a greatsword, but one that let's everyone have access to supenatural powers including both turning into a dragon and cuting castles in a half. All wizards should be able to be martials, and vice versa, regardless of power levels.

This never fails to be relevant.

Fuck off back to Skyrim

I like the idea of them being interwoven with their legends. People tell stories about their mundane feats, which grow with the retelling - that time when they killed a guy in full plate armor by stabbing a weak spot becomes a story about how they cut him in half through his armor, or the time he ran through a fire and got mildly singed becomes a tale of him walking through a raging inferno. Then the belief in these stories imbues them with the power to replicate these tall tales. And so the tales grow, and so they grow in turn.

Mechanically, you'd get feat analogues every level or so by picking something noteworthy you accomplished and deciding it's part of your legend. Then every couple of levels your these fears advance - so at level 1 you might do some extra damage or endure elements, at level 5 you can ignore some level of DR or get massive elemental resistance, at 10 you can cleave through magical barriers or become immune to that element, and so on.

god no. I'd rather play E6. but I won't. instead I'll play a fantasy game that isn't D&D.

>Then the belief in these stories imbues them with the power to replicate these tall tales
literally anime-tier story-telling. fucking cancer.

That shit pisses me off too
>mfw people still don't realize that ALL classes in D&D are magical in some form or another

>le anime fightan man maymay.

The worst ones are the Fighterfags that insist that they shouldn't get anything good, themselves.

"WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO REMAIN TOTALLY MUNDANE! ...YOU MEAN WE DON'T GET ANYTHING GOOD?! FUCK YOOOOU!"

Its like they HAVE to be able to call themselves mundane to get it up at night or something. Being superhuman means you are no longer mundane, and that's ok.

But if you insist you're mundane, then get ready to suck shit next to everyone else.

I never used spells in skyrim to be honest. They're redundant, only to be used if you're into that, never needed but on a couple of quests. Did the wizard's school quests with full armor and a sword.

>character's power scales with the exaggeration of their own legend
>everyone thinks he's a noble, perfect hero single-handedly halting a demon invasion
>he's actually just a bard writing stories of himself to fuel his own power
>made a deal with an ancient devil for this power, contract stipulates he must keep the hell portals open
>knows he's become a living mockery of his own tall tales by enabling the demon invasion, but has to keep up the lie for the power to fight them
>his greatest fear is the demons showing up in a backwater village that never heard of him

?

Why on hell should that apply only to fighters? It's always the same problem for me. Everything you can come that it's original for fighters also fits the other classes perfectly.

Maybe they play the class associated with and closer to mundaneness because they want to play something mundane,not superhumans? Wew, fucking weirdos.

Then they shouldn't play D&D, a game about superhumans killing monsters.

>assblasted fag is furious that anime isn't good and nobody likes it

so the cloth wearing no HP no DC nerd is crawling on all fours through his first 10 lvls while being bullied by the chads who play cleric or warrior. and after no pussy for what feels like an eternity he finaly pays of and the chads cry tears of testosteron because now that pasty clown that never did any glory deeds . that never got celebrated for being the noble hero. that always got chunned for being in contact with the "weird" is fed up with reality and is making his own now.
cry harder animemes this is caster land now

What's so hard to understand that the game is pivoted around a simple concept. Martials are great low levels, and wizards become amazing at higher levels.

Then don't whine when you're literally worth less then a Class Feature, fucktard.

It doesn't work for wizards and clerics because it's not their power, it's because they have access to a power beyond them. So their legend gets subsumed into stories about the power of magic, or into gospels about the might of their patron deity.

But that's wrong, faggot. Casters are amazing at all levels.

Don't have fucking levels if it doesn't mean everyone's around the same, wait for it....

LEVEL OF FUCKING POWER

Also, give me a fucking page number in 3.PF where it says or implies that. Because the books I have say that all classes are equal at all LEVELs.

Probably a good encounter power for any fighter would be something along the lines of, "Spot the Weakness". I'm not sure what level it should be implemented. It grants a -5 to AC to the opponent, only for the attacker. If it misses, maybe a -2 AC. Either way, it would function in a way that allows the fighter to do a shit-ton more damage by cutting through the enemy's armor like butter. It's balanced out in that in mob scenarios, it's practically ineffective.

It's damage would be something like 1|W|+ST. Something small, as the effects of the attack are far more important. In game, this could be described as discovering a chink in the armor by doing a normal attack, or exposing a weak point from said attack.

Feats would probably be: Small but Mighty. (reserved for size small races only.) It would remove the requirements of small races to two hand versatile weapons, while allowing them to wield weapons normal medium class could with one hand. In this way, it allows races like a Dwarf to be more competent martial fighters.

While you're at it, maybe something like Intense Training. This would be a feat too, designed to grant +1 to physical checks like Endurance, Athletics, Acrobatics, etc.

Master Roshi?

That's silly still, in both cases. A fighter should be able to match a wizard in combat, or else the implications is that wizards would easily rule the world and no one equal them. I always thought that fighters or something equivalent should either have a natural spell resistance, or even an ability that grants temporary spell immunity for 'x' rounds, giving them a true chance against their wizard counter-parts.

Why is it that the people who claim casters are overpowered are always completely ignorant of how the game actually works?

How pathetic.

That's bad game design. Rather than all players being able to contribute, one set of players doesn't get to contribute for half the game, and the others for the other half. Plus it creates a winning strategy where you play exclusively martial characters in the early game, then retire them and play mystical characters in the later game.

...

>TheProblemsWithShitseeker.jpg

Yeah, sure, dude. Its not how it works at allll.

Everyone's crazy but you. Clearly.

>everyone
>one angry teen who didn't read the book very carefully

Kek, made me reply

>4 HP
> Amazing

Because that defeats the whole purpose of levels.

Whatever you say, maddie

The surest sign that you're dealing with a failure of a troll is eventually all they can do is repeat variations on "u mad!?"

Read Irish Myth and steal liberally from there. Just from Cu Chulainn you have a man being killed by having an apple thrown through him, jumping off a series of thrown spears to catch a bird to eat, a horrifying super mode transformation, a guy getting a spear thrown through his head and then calling off the fight for now so he can go show his friends this crazy shit, and a guy decapitating a pair of hilltops with a single swing.

>3.X

How is all/most of that not magic?

see

Someone's super powerful automatically can perform feats of magic just by being that awesome.

Kyoukai no Kanata

...

By level 20 a fighter is a Legend of Mythical proportions

Give them Mythical Weapons and Armor and Feats

Let them Cleave Mountains and Destroy Armies and Wrestle Giant Beasts the likes of which have never been seen by man

They are a Warrior God in the making

Let them feel like it

if that's the kind of stories you guys want to recreate...

so you're saying most classes are shit, glad to have cleared that up.

>saying magic is shit
>in D&D, a game about magic

He never said it wasn't

A level 20 martial is fucking magic, it's just that their particular brand of magic involves doing ridiculous shit that is still grounded in some form of martial flavouring. A wizard launches a meteor to destroy a castle wall. A fighter headbutts it. A wizard teleports across the battlefield. A fighter jumps across it. A wizard creates a magical forcefield to protect him from arrows. A fighter cuts the arrows from the air before they reach him. A wizard casts fear on an enemy and sends them fleeing. The fighter shouts a warcry that does the same. Continue ad infinatum.

Once you reach epic level, physics and realism have long since ceased to exist, so why the fuck not just have everyone be magic.

Because some people can only get their dicks hard if they call it mundane.

I fucking hate people making this argument, because you're both right and both wrong.
You're right in saying you shouldn't be so shit compared to other pcs.
You're wrong in wanting superhero powers in a pseudo-realistic (at least for mundanes) setting.
Your dm is right in not wanting you to rape the setting with awful and inappropriate superhero shit.
Your dm is wrong in forcing you to have a not fun experience due to other pcs making you irrelevant.

Solution: find a different system.

>D&D, a game about magic
so D&D is shit then? NOW I got ya.

>A fighter headbutts it.
cringe
>A fighter jumps across it.
cringe
>A fighter cuts the arrows from the air before they reach him.
at least semi-conceivable, depending on how many
>The fighter shouts a warcry that does the same.
again, depends on how many and other other circumstances. otherwise, it'd be cringeworthy too.

Well, if you believe magic is shit, why are you playing a high fantasy game where magic's fucking everywhere? Are you just trying to stomp around in faeces or something?

...

Perhaps, but why call it magic? I love fighters getting to do cool things, but you don't need to retain them into being the son of Zeus to explain it.

Just let martial be extraordinary and fantastical, but don't give them no or something to try and justify it. If I'm playing a Fighter, I should be unaffected by an anti-magic field, not have my muscles unravel because everything that doesn't exist in real life is magic.

That's totally fine! Supernatural stuff doesn't have to be magic.

But you don't get to whine and cry and insist you are totally 100% mundane when you are clearly superhuman.

Magic isn't a justification, and it means the exact same thing in this context as "extraordinary" or "fantastical". It's just to explain that a fighter isn't "ordinary". Obviously they aren't affected by an anti-magic field, that only has to do with magic-user magic.

I think we're just having a disconnect of terms here.

In real life, a Giant is clearly supernatural. It is something that doesn't exist in nature, and can't really exist based on what we know of biology.

In D&D land, a giant is about as mundane as a bear. It's huge, and the physics of the world allow it to be huge, but it isn't considered supernatural there, since giants just sort of exist naturally.

Same with Fighters. In a fantasy world, a Fighter can do things that seem supernatural to us, but are mundane within the setting.

Think of it this way. If someone in real life went to the Olympics and did a 40 foot long jump to get the world record, are they supernatural? Or has the bar on what is considered mundane just raised?

That's what I think the case should be. Fighters are supernatural compared to us, but in their world, that's simply what the peak of physical training and skill can accomplish. The bar for mundane is higher in their world.

Ok, but where's your dividing line? At what point does a fighter's jump go from "fantasy world mundane" to magic? When it's 100 feet? a mile? When he never has to land? When he can hover in place?

Nope. I said what I said, and I stand by it 100%. A giant is NOT mundane. It is of a supernatural linage.

And if you want to cry and whine you are totally mundane as a fighter, then enjoy being bound by the rules of reality.

Level 20 fighters should have superhuman feats and fighting skills. These guys are facing the same shit as wizards, but they do so without magic. Their massive sized balls should give them some advantage

In my M&M campaign, my Strongman could potentially *lift* a whole castle. Well, he probably wouldn't lift it whole, because something or other would break so he might just take a piece of wall and chuck it at an enemy.

>A fighter cuts the arrows from the air before they reach him.
This shit always confused me. If he cuts them, wouldn't the pointy half still reach him? He'd be better served swatting them away.

Nice bait

i'm not, i'm merely observing and commenting on the market leader.

again, if fantasy superhero shit is the kind of stories you want to tell, more power to you. personally, i'd rather game with 5 edgy mcedgelords DarkEdge: The Edgening all day long.

And there's the flaw in your thinking. You don't transition from extrodinary to magical as a fighter, because one should not be inherently better than the other.

If a Fighter can achieve it without spells or enchantment in effect, then that is the new mundane. If you don't want fighters flying without magic, then don't let them fly. But don't try and just give fighters magical angel wings from the god of combat at level 10 if you do want them to fly but have to justify it to yourself.

And there's the issue. You're concerning yourself with realism in a world that doesn't follow our laws, but assuming that anything fantastical must be magic.

A tribe of giants could live their entire lives in an anti-magic field without issue, assuming it was large enough. They are natural creatures that aren't inherently magical. They'd be an odd sight to see, and they're fantastical, but not beyond natural laws. They are not supernatural within that world.

Maybe the air pressure from his weapon?

No I'm serious (also a complete ignoramus about physics).

If the air pressure is strong enough to move the arrows away how can he manage to cut them? Wouldn't they just be swatted aside still whole?

The world by and large follows the laws of reality.

You know what breaks it?

SUPER

NATURAL

THINGS

You keep doing this batshit insane thing where you insist that supernatural =/= magic, but that's not true, regardless of retarded D&D keywords, I'm talking the actual English Language.

They are supernatural and extraordinary IN THE WORLD, but they are not MAGIC. The two things are not the same fucking thing.

But if you want to insist that you are 100%, utterly, totally mundane?

You have to be limited by reality.

I'm going to point you back to the very first thing I said in this thread, by the way.

You said:
>And there's the issue. You're concerning yourself with realism in a world that doesn't follow our laws, but assuming that anything fantastical must be magic.

But wait! What's this I said, waaay up here at ?
Oh, wait, its
>That's totally fine! Supernatural stuff doesn't have to be magic.

Not him, but would you call a Xenomorph from Alien supernatural? It clearly doesn't obey our laws of physics, but it's portrayed as a purely biological monster.

irl wooden arrows are pretty frail, senpai. If the air pressure the guy's swings are enough to swat them aside, they'd likely break in half and be ineffective aside from maybe a splinter flying into his eye.

No, I don't have to follow the rules of reality, because the game does not take place in reality. If a Fighter can do these extrodinary things, then by definition it is realistic within the setting.

A giant is not supernatural if it exists naturally.

And extrodinary stuff doesn't have to be supernatural.

If it clearly doesn't follow our laws of physics?

YES. Purely biological can be NON MAGICAL but SUPERNATURAL at the same time!

PULL

YOUR

FUCKING HEAD

OUT OF

YOUR ASS

Supernatural =/= magic.

Supernatural =/= MAGIC YOU DENSE SACK OF SHIT.

Something can be purely biological and still be fucking supernatural!

Supernatural: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
"a supernatural being"

>Supernatural: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature

And as I keep saying, you need to stop looking at it from our perspective.

In the Aliens movie, the Aliens are not beyond scientific understanding. They're beyond our understanding as the viewers in the real world, but to the people in the movie they can be studied and known about fully.

Same with Giants. In D&D land, Hobbits, Dwarves, Giants, Owlbears, and plenty other creatures are considered natural, because they obey the laws of nature in that world.

Ok, but that's not how science fiction works. Science fiction posits that we simply don't understand the laws of physics properly, and things like FTL and plasma cannons are a result of more advanced scientific understanding. That's not true, of course - xenomorphs, warp drive, and directed plasma weaponry simply do not correspond to real world biochemistry - but that's the premise. So their universe just runs on slightly different natural laws than ours which allow for whatever their differences are.

>options to end or bypass encounters before they even begin
>not amazing

Come on dude, you're not even trying.

>Owlbears
You mean the large magical beast?

And the wizard firing meteors isn't cringe?

Go fuck yourself.

You are operating on the assumption that any normal person in D&D have stats that range between 3 and 18 (or similar). That is rarely the case in most settings. PCs have an extraordinary spark that make them better, and that can be called magic if need be.

Not the one you are answering to, but...

Just as many things where you draw the line depends on the setting.

If in the setting creatures as big as skyscrapers can fly aided by wings (or other means that don't go off within an antimagic field) it's ok to say that a fighter needs one of those means to fly, but allow me to laugh when you say a fighter with comparable strength as said creature can't run full speed, climb or swim in full armor.

Even if we go small scale, a fighter with 16 strength (sub-par according to most optimization builds) is a human being as strong as a bear (look in the monster manual), and we already know that is overtly unrealistic.

I feel the problem with D&D is that it doesn't define when magic is part of physics and when it's metaphysics, and is horrifically inconsistent on where these two apply.

Going back to the first example, a colossal dragon doesn't crush under is own weight and is even able to fly, it's clearly magic according to real world physics.
A less than 20th level fighter can consistently swim through lava or survive terminal velocity fall without debilitating damage, again magic.
The above mentioned fighter can fight,surpass scales that should be as thick as walls, and one-crit kill the above mentioned colossal dragon with a weapon smaller than a rose thorn from the perspective of the dragon. Again magic.
But this "magic" is part of the world's laws of physics, as when you put this scenarios in an antimagic field, it still works this way.
Then there is another kind of magic, that of spells and magic items, that is different.

And this inconsistencies and lack of clear world's mechanics creates even more horrible absurdities like, in pathfinder, the weapon cord use.

Or the spell gushing brow... i hate the use of triggered nowadays... but god it triggers me.

Am I? I don't think I said anything about stats. While you CAN call it magic, it's the fact that you deliberately do so to satisfy your autism about realism I have issue with.

To put it another way, while Supernatural might not equal Magic, it's equally true that Mundane does not have to equal Realistic.

My autism? Funny, given how much of a raw boner you have that things HAVE to be mundane, you absurd faggot.

If I'm playing a non-magical character, I think it's perfectly reasonable that they stay non-magical. You're the one trying to say that I have to be the son of Poseidon and sprout magical angel wings at level 7 if I want to keep playing this fantasy game.

I'm kind of only half following this thread so I might have misunderstood your position here. What is your take on the OP?

And yes, you're right that mundane doesn't have to be realistic. What I mean is that, I think a base assumption in D&D is that player characters aren't just "really good humans", but actually mythical heroes of a sort. They can do things that normal people can't, just because they can. Because of that, I don't think your argument about the 40 feet jump really works.

Also just so you know, isn't me, and I don't care if some nerd calls me autistic on a mongolian papyrus rack.

Do you two understand you're saying the same things with different words, right?

The point of the discussion is that a high level non-magic character should be competitive with magic, because he is in a world where it is possible, wether you call it "mundane (because it's the opposite of magic)" or "supernatural (in acceptation different from magic)" because you like the sound of that word is just semantics.

My take on the OP is that the DM is foolish for saying a Fighter couldn't do something like that.

I am totally fine with fighters being amazing and doing extrodinary and unrealistic things. I want them to by mythical heroes who do thinks the average person can't.

My issue is when people are only willing to accept that a fighter can do those things if he has a magic sword or is blessed by the gods.

I'm not going to complain if my fighter hits level 10 and does something that breaks a world record or isn't possible in real life, because it isn't real life. I am going to complain if the DM insists I change my character because we're past the 'realistic' levels, and that my character can't continue to progress on their own merits.