Elves are really, really good archers

>Elves are great snipers
>The governments of the world are all terrified by their ability to eliminate their leaders from extreme ranges

>All speeches are delivered from the backs of armored Popemobiles which occasionally drive back and forth across the stage just to be safe

>Popemobiles driving back and forth
>Not being H-HAYAI enough to dodge elf bullets
Are you OSOI! or something?

You could make a really cheap spy satellite by strapping an elf to a kite.

Dwarves basically end up becoming Naavies.
Elves become gypsies or jews, all watchmakers and in the entertainment industry.

>Marcille stars in: kimg of queens.
FUND IT!

Dwarves would be the ones to mechanize mining before anyone else.

>the leader of the up and coming aggressive empire has speeches out in the open
>he straight up stops elven bullets with pure strength

>Kaiser Wilhelm's hatred and inferiority complex are so strong, they physically affect the world
I want to run this campaign. Or play it, I don't even care.

I didn't know I wanted to see elves, dwarves, orcs, arch-demons, gnomes, and dragons at an unemployment line.

fantasy 1800s
Elves: craftsmen, artists, sharpshooters
Dwarves: engineers, architects, artillery crew

Where did the nonhumans touch you OP?
Was it your little ballsies?
Did they laugh afterwards because they were hard to find?

>Like Russia vs the White Death, am I right?
>Zerg rushing totes beat him.

dwarves are good at machines and being engineers
elves are fucked though.

fucking psions.

Literally and figuratively fucked. They'll be reduced to being courtesans and hired help.

Psst... Finland lost. They ended up ceding more than Russia originally demanded from them.

>elves are fucked though

>+ INT is not useful
>magic is not useful
>+ DEX is not useful
Well, DEX is a bit harder, but combined with their good looks they should find all kinds of jobs in the entertainment industry.

>He thinks elves wouldn't just become proficient at using fire-arms

Ootko edes tosissas?

>Snow elf forgets to add the picture

Well i did say "become proficient at using guns" not "become good at shitposting".

Realistically they would just get whatever tech the best society had.

Thats the thing, good tech is only better if you can keep it out of the hands of people

Daily reminder that he took a bullet to the face and the USSR won the war in the end.

Turns out that a facility with high precision craftsmanship, excellent eyesight, and an inherent gift with long range shooting can have applications other than bows.

Now have an army of White Deaths.

If humanity still wants to kill the elves as they climb over literal mountains of their fallen comrads, GoT style, props up to them.
More then likely, Humanity with just set fire to the forest, build a wall and pretend the world beyond no longer exists.

Did humans suddenly become useless because their ability to domesticate animals has become redundant with mechanization?

Yes.

you didn't think this post through, did you.

This is utterly stupid. It's like looking at humans in the neolithic era and determining what they can do based purely off of what they are capable of at that time.

I'm often baffled by the desire of Veeky Forums to fellate humans in fictional settings, as if many players somehow honestly feel threatend by the existence of fictional entities which are not human. Not all, but many.

I played with a legit HFYfag. It was an awkward, yet entertaining experience.

Humans have always been useless. We're completely dependent on our skills, which means that every revolution or shift in economy leaves millions unemployed and unemployable because they invested into skill that are now a noob trap.

In theory all the archery the Elves would do in large scale combat would be volley fire, which doesn't actually require precise accuracy, just hitting a certain required distance marker when required, and enough discipline to fire in a volley.

So presumably beyond small scale fights the reason elves are good archers is their discipline and excessive training. So I imagine if Elves advanced to the era where warfare was ranks of pikemen and musketmen they'd be ridiculously effective. They'd be able to reload and fire in an incredibly short span of time.

And another person mentioned they like really well made stuff. So assuming they actually took advantage of improving technology and made muskets and guns, they'd have the best ones you could get, probably better than Dwarf versions.

>By that point mining is starting to get mechanized
Which Dwarves would liely get involved with
>massed fire infantry tactics combined with artillery means accuracy becomes a moot point and even then there are rifles that surpass the bow in both power and accuracy.
Which Elves would probably be using, and would be prized as snipers with. Seriously I don't think you put much thought into this.

>OP clearly states it's only bows or mining
>Faggots keep inventing other things they SHOULD be good at

It doesn't work like that. If you put all points in bow mastery, don't be mad when your faggy specialization doesn't work anymore.

Realy life doesn't have 'specialization' points. Elves and Dwarves are in most settings consistently good craftsmen of the technological level of the period, skilled warriors, possess disciplined armies.

These are all traits which have an impact and carry over as time and technology advances.

The argument OP and you are advancing would mean that historians would be incapable of explaining how we use to have Greek City States but then later had a gunpowder using Ottoman Empire.

Looking at a slice of time and determining the capabilities of the individuals at that time in no way determines the net-capability they have throughout all time periods.

This is just stupid. Then Fantasy humans are never going to do well either cause, newsflash, they don't have artillery either and they don't have mechanized mining.

Your literally saying cause Elves and Dwarves don't have a thing they're somehow bad despite no-one in the settings having those things anyway.

That worked for the somalis in Mogadishu didn't it? Wait, no. They got slaughtered by a dramatically smaller but more skilled opposing force.

1:8 casualty ratio despite a 25:1 numbers advantage.

You're assuming stasis. You're also somehow isolating two skill sets from all context. This is just dumb.

This would be akin to if I said humans in the stone age were; 'good at making fire' and 'flint weapons' and then asked; but does this mean they will become pointless because in the future we will use electric lights and automatic weapons?

Seriously? You think numbers are the only thing that matters in gunpowder based warfare?

>It doesn't work like that.
WTF are you even blathering about, you idiot? Are you suggesting that because the race comes with bow proficiency, elves just have a genetic predisposition for bows? It says in these rulebooks that the racial traits are a mix of nature and cultural influences, so there's no reason that elves should go "Oh, there's guns now? Time to up and DIE because I'm incapable of using any ranged weapon without a string!"

>Realy life doesn't have 'specialization' points.
It does tho, try repairing a spaceship when you only have knowledge about fine electronics.

>The argument OP and you are advancing would mean that historians would be incapable of explaining how we use to have Greek City States but then later had a gunpowder using Ottoman Empire.
We did it because we're humans. We're versatile, adaptable race. Even in Tolkien elves and dwarves' greatest achievements were in the past, which implies they can't advance the same as we can.

>Looking at a slice of time and determining the capabilities of the individuals at that time in no way determines the net-capability they have throughout all time periods.
Except it does, you idiot. As i said before, humans are THE advancing race. Other fantasy races should be static, reflecting different periods of advancement, with humanity moving forward and dealing with emerging races.

yes, exactly.

see, Fantasy is a deal of Past versus Future and other fantasy races represent Past.

>other fantasy races represent Past.
[citation needed]

Now you're literally just setting your own argument and insisting anyone who doesn't hold your view is incorrect.

Dwarves and Elves have never been definied as races which 'cannot advance'. Indeed within Tolkein itself both races are never inferior in their level of technology to humans.

You're creating for yourself the belief that 'only humans are permitted to advance' and then stating this is an objective fact of all fantasy setting when it is simply not.

Not to mention the obvious logical error of stating a group 'cannot advance' despite them already existing within a certain degree of advancement.

Dude you're just making this up. Nowhere has it been written that all fantasy races represent Past and humans the future, you're literally just making this up.

>Elves are really, really good archers
>this, somehow, means they're completely useless at everything else

No, it just means you're an idiot.

Are you literally saying the entire genre of fantasy is the exact same thematic confrontation every time?

>guns are cowardly and gay
What's it like being 15?

I can imagine. I almost wish I knew someone like that just so I can experience it myself, but only almost.

I'm always just shocked at the degree of insecurity that must exist for someone to feel so threatened by a fictional entity.

>Even in Tolkien elves and dwarves' greatest achievements were in the past

So were humans. Numanor was a very long time ago and humans are a lot worse than they were back in those days.

I see no faults in my argument. They can advance, and in fact advance from neolithic period, but only to certain periods.

Elves advance up to 15th century.
Dwarves advance up to pre-industrial age.
Orcs advance to industrial.
Kobolds advance to post-industrial

But in the end, when fantasy setting's people go into space it will all be humans.

Good point. In many fantasy settings there was usually a 'High Human' civilization of the past which was superior to the current one as well.

No it won't. As in...literally on what are you basing that argument? You're own feelings? Because there doesn't seem to be a shred of actual rational proof for your position, you just seem to be blurbing out an oddly specific scenario and insisting it is the reality.

What I want to know is where is the great book of Fantasy Setting cannon this user apparently has access to?

Cause if there isn't then everything he's saying is just bullshit he's pulling out his ass.

>They can advance, and in fact advance from neolithic period, but only to certain periods.
>Elves advance up to 15th century.
>Dwarves advance up to pre-industrial age.
>Orcs advance to industrial.
>Kobolds advance to post-industrial
Where the hell are you getting all this from? Nothing you're saying is a constant across all settings, and moreover, it's not supported by Tolkien's work at all, or the popular game systems, so why did you start replying to people with nonsense about "If you put all points in bow mastery, don't be mad when your faggy specialization doesn't work anymore"? You just keep making less and less sense.

Do you guys have legit autism or are you not able to understand allegory?

I know shit fantasy like Shadowrun exists when they let other races advance to humans' level. It's also notoriously stupid and reduces other races to "humans with pointy ears". Fantasy like that isn't fantasy. it's ghetto sci-fi that puts author's masturbatory "worldbuilding" nobody cares about before symbolism and thematic consistency (seriously, elves wearing cyberimplants?).

True fantasy is about humans Changing the world. You don't just put in other races to be "there", every one of them should symbolize something. Elves are symbols of glory of the past, Dwarves are symbols of glory undone by their own folly, Orcs are symbol of brutality of an industrial age and over-consumption that eventually eats itself. Humans are viewpoint of fantasy, travelling and learning new things and becoming wiser.

It was just a single example. You could switch races around and it would still make sense.

Fantasy as a genre (barring stupid schlock novels) is first a foremost exploration of human nature and flaws, represented as other races.

Then why is it that Numanor is fallen glory that humans will never reclaim in tolkien?

This posters argument is no longer sustainable, as these posters
have proven him wrong. Thus it is decreed that this poster is silly and sleeps with a bundle of sticks.

A cautionary example about pride. Seeing other humans fall serves as an example that culture that never hallenges itself can die out as easily as other fantasy races. In a fashion, numenorans became "human-elves".

His death toll was probably exagarated.
The Soviets did literally everything wrong.
Finland still lost the war and more area than Russia demanded originally.

>niggers high out of their mind, no communication and coordination and zero training beyond point this way and press the trigger
Gee no wonder they lost.

Both are horrible examples why zerg rushes don't work.

And why is it that the viewpoint character in Tolkien isn't a human but halflings then if this is all about humans as the viewpoints of fantasy?

>Finland still lost the war and more area than Russia demanded originally.
Meanwhile, Baltics gave in to the demands and lost their independence completely.

>i'll sperg out at a single example, then claim all he posts is that!

Your mother thought you would be better than this, user.

>You could switch races around and it would still make sense
It doesn't make any sense no matter how you slice it. Different advancement speeds, I can buy. A conservative or reactionary mindset holding a culture back from accepting modern technology or norms, sure, for a while. But what you're proposing is that there is some magical force holding a nonhuman group back from making or USING any advancements beyond a certain point, which is not only stupid lore as far as I can tell, I've never even seen this used or proposed.

>humans are 90% farmers
Does it mean in modern era humans would be obsolete if farming becomes mechanised?

Wrong. Aragorn and Boromir are as much of main characters as halflings are.

Tolkien's choice of halflings was a trapping of choosing a "fairy tale" approach to his work. And in the end, when all was said and done, where did halflings return? To their secluded village, to be isolated from further progress. halflings are the last mystical race to stand because they are most like humans, but they are not humans, and thus are doomes exactly the same others are.

It's not "magical force" it's basic good writing. if these races wer to grow to humans' level, what would they be? Humans with pointy ears. It's not about worldbuilding, worldbuilding is detrimental to building a good fantasy story.

Also i have no words. How could you post
>is that there is some magical force holding a nonhuman group back from making or USING any advancements beyond a certain point, which is not only stupid lore as far as I can tell, I've never even seen this used or proposed.
when LITERALLY IN THE SAME POST EARLIER YOU WROTE
>Different advancement speeds, I can buy. A conservative or reactionary mindset holding a culture back from accepting modern technology or norms, sure, for a while.

First you write a "justification" then you reject it? What are you on? Like okay, if you're the kind of turboautist who NEEDS setting be justified, you can use this. But don't contradict yourself.

The entire story hinges on the hobbits. Aragorn and Boromir are important but no more than Gimli and Legolas. In the end it's the devotion of Samwise Gamgee, the obsession of Gollum and the compassion of Frodo that is the core of it.

>if these races wer to grow to humans' level, what would they be?

What about races in fantasy that surpass humans?

>It's not "magical force" it's basic good writing. if these races wer to grow to humans' level, what would they be? Humans with pointy ears.
No, they would still be in societal and racial niches, with a different historical context.
>First you write a "justification" then you reject it? What are you on? Like okay, if you're the kind of turboautist who NEEDS setting be justified, you can use this. But don't contradict yourself.
Uh, I didn't contradict myself? Calm down dude. I think you're confusing "different advancement speeds" with "hard stops on how far they can advance", or you're confusing "for a while" with "permanently, until it destroys them"

See, you're starting to understand. Hobbits are allegory too, and in the end the reward for them is returning to peaceful life. They're race that desires nothing but peace and comfort and in the end they will become history too.
Humans would eventually surpass them too.

>No, they would still be in societal and racial niches, with a different historical context.
No, they wouldn't exist because there would be no need of them.
>Uh, I didn't contradict myself? Calm down dude. I think you're confusing "different advancement speeds" with "hard stops on how far they can advance", or you're confusing "for a while" with "permanently, until it destroys them"
Call it as you want, but it should be a hard stop, lest they become just "humans with Pointy ears".

>See, you're starting to understand. Hobbits are allegory too, and in the end the reward for them is returning to peaceful life. They're race that desires nothing but peace and comfort and in the end they will become history too.

Except you said that humans are the viewpoint...but humans are not remotely the most important OR the most common viewpoint characters in it.

>Humans would eventually surpass them too.

Why? Humans never surpassed the wonders of the age of the elves.

Yeah...I have to agree, he's been proven decisively wrong already cause he uses batshit examples.

You do realize that since we humans are creating these fictional entities there's no way for them not, to an extent, to be humans with pointy ears?

Your argument is ridiculous. Within Tolkein alone humans never even match the Elves, and are never stated too.

Not to mention Halflings aren't doomed. This just sounds like you're projecting weird racial masturbatory fantasies into Tolkein's works.

>No, they wouldn't exist because there would be no need of them.
Things cling to existence if they can survive. They don't care if you need them or not. And if you mean from a narrative perspective, having things like Elves and dwarves in a fantasy setting is part of the fantasy, it adds variety.
>Call it as you want, but it should be a hard stop, lest they become just "humans with Pointy ears".
Can you at least tell me, are you OP, or are you someone else that latched on with a slightly different argument? I mean, what comment did you actually start in on this conversation?

>And if you mean from a narrative perspective, having things like Elves and dwarves in a fantasy setting is part of the fantasy, it adds variety.
If you're using races for just "variety" i don't envy your Players.

But hobbiton got turned into an industrial hellhole annd the hobbits thrived in that after Frodo buggered off. Didn't you read the authors notes?

This isn't even about the OP's question anymore. This seems to now be about one user stating his super-specific idea of what Fantasy as a whole is and arguing that anyone who is wrong with him is objectively wrong.

This whole scenario is ridiculous.

If you only use Fantasy Races as 'allegories' I don't envy your players.

>alone
They don't need to be alone. The ones who sided against Melkor got quite a boost.

well, we have a prove that snowelven make good snipers at least

>If you're using races for just "variety" i don't envy your Players.
And I have no Idea what you're using fantasy races for. Sounds like which seems really tedious to play. Also, you ignored the second part of my statement. Are you OP, and if not, what point did you start inserting your weird-ass argument?

I actually run mostly low fantasy. It's more interesting and i admit i'm not a good enough writer to explore the themes of Fantasy over a long campaign.

It's not super specific. it's Tolkien and Lewis, two FATHERS of fantasy. Stuff like forgotten realms is not "fantasy", it's ghetto sci-fi with superhero themes.

It's not weird-ass, but i responded to

Agreed. Honestly, his arguments seem to stem from a fundamental misunderstanding of Tolkien's lore that isn't even relevant to the thread topic, which was about a campaign setting.

Dude Tokein sure as hell never said humans were the only race that can develop. You're just lying now.

Not that user, but it IS super-specific. This probably all came from you getting a revelation of some sort while thinking about the fantasy races.

But instead of it being enlightening, we are just being blinded by your incandescent hubris and over-zealousness.

You are not contributing to a discussion. You never even wanted discussion. You had a strong opinion and wanted to force it down other people's throats because you think you are objectively right.

You know, when LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE is saying you're wrong, usually it is not about you being enlightened and the others not being, it's that you're delusional about your argument's objective value.

You've boiled down the entire vast genre of Fantasy just to Tolkein and Lewis. Okay.

I mean, they're good, but they don't literally constitute the entire genre. Like not at all.

At least you're not using ellipses any more, user!