We all know Lorgar's stats. We all know how badass he is when he's fully buffed, but what if the Imperium managed to throw a shitton of Pre-Culuxes at him?
Lets assume for simplicity's sake that it's just Lorgar versus X Culuxes, where X equals the minimum amount of those assassins necessary to kill the Urizen?
Why a shitton? One should be enough.
either one can do it or no amount ever will
Are we talkin' stats or lore now?
Im gonna say two because lorgar transfigured being unable to cast powers is just lorgar but hes still a primarch so two should be enough, maybe three.
In an old (4th ed. I think) piece of fluff, an Adept did a briefing for a force of 40 imperial assassins sent to kill Abaddon.
At the end he think that he will never see them again, like all the previous failed attempts.
If it's really 1v1, then one is enough. Even if Lorgar kills him, the Assassin will just detonate before Lorgar can fuck off.
Unless you're thinking of a grenade, then you're mixing up the assassin types.
Eversors are the ones that explode after death.
Yes, I done did a stupid.
Well if Lorgar is a DP still, then 1 would be enough to at least force him to leave real space.
If he is a human, then 1 would still be enough, if the Assassin cuts his connection to the Warp. Lorgar no longer hearing the Chaos whispers would probably cause him to go mad, an ideal target for the Culexus.
Nope.
Abaddon surrounded himself with at least 3 blanks when he wanted to safely cripple a Grey Knight and capture him. Abaddon wasn't the least bothered by their presence.
Sister Sturn who is basically a Living Saint was so powerful than she overfed a Culexus until he exploded.
So... in other words, you CAN make a Culexus explode after death, you just have to do it right?
But they'd be heading either into the Eye of Terror and some of the most heavily defended worlds there or into a massive and unpredictable warzone, so most of them would never even make contact. Stats don't matter when your transport is being vaporized.
We're talking stats, gentlemen.
Their target wasn't even Abbadon himself but his lieutenants.
well its not really clear if the explosion comes before or after the death
Abbadon isn't a Daemon Prince and Sister Stern is dumb bullshit.
OR ARE WE
Assuming points-balance between 30k and 40k, 2.7 Culexi are required to deal with a single Lorgar.
However.
Whenever Lorgar attacks a Culexus, he does so at WS/BS 1; half of any wounds he does manage to inflict will be saved; within 12" of a Culexus he generates no Warp Charge (but grants 2 additional dice to the Culexus' owner's pool) and halves his (personal) chance of harnessing Warp Charge to 1/6; he gains no bonus attacks when charging a Culexus unless it is already locked in combat; loses any Blessings he has within 12"; cannot attack the Culexus psychically; the Culexus has BS8 and Perils of the Warp grenades as well as the Animus Speculum (at a minimum, within 12" this is Assault 5, S5, AP1); suffers a -2 penalty to Look Out, Sir (assuming for the moment we're not 1v1); the Culexus re-rolls to Hit of 1; Lorgar's Leadership is reduced to 7 within 12" of the Culexus (for all the difference this will make, since he cannot into Warp fuckery at that range) and Lorgar's own saves are reduced to 4+ (his invulnerable save).
Really it comes down to who can land the most hits.
The Culexus is going to hit first at 2+; on the charge, 5 hits at S4 vs T6 for slightly less than 1 Wound and 50% chance of it being saved. Even three of them, in melee, would struggle to bring him down - but at the same time, he needs 5+ to hit, so only 1 and a bit of his 4 attacks (5 if you count his pistol, but you know some people are going to argue that's a bonus attack and should be discarded) will connect. If he's lucky, that 1 hit causes Instant Death, but overall his chance of any melee attack killing the Culexus is about 5/36, and his Smash and Concussive do nothing (unless he kills the Culexus anyway). Assuming Lorgar has retained his Dark Fortune and faces a single Culexus in melee, the Culexus would need extraordinary luck to even Wound him.
1v1 the odds are in Lorgar's favor; Lorgar Transfigured is pretty much the same, as his upgrade does nothing against the Culexus except give it more Warp Charge to play with.
Shooting is slightly different: the Animus Wounds Lorgar (5+) just as readily, but gets 5 attacks minimum if we're 1v1 (1-6 over 12" away because there are no other Psykers) and an average 7.5 shots; call it 2 Wounds, 1 of them getting past Lorgar's armor. Transfigured he takes 1.5 Wounds; if for some reason he can't immediately assault and is not assaulted, he'll average 3 lost Wounds over 2 turns and regain 1 (IWND), from his 5 total. 3 Culexus would therefore be enough to kill him (so points balance is more or less accurate, because it comes down to how well the player uses their assets). Transfigured is therefore not a good thing when facing Culexus, as it only makes it more likely they'll shoot him to death. Over 12" (up to 18") away the Culexus is still making 3.5 shots a turn; depending on the terrain and the luck of the Warp, walking slowly backwards shooting him in the face might be a winning combo. Note that if you count the Animus as a a psychic-type weapon (which seems counterintuitive) Lorgar's saves are slightly better (3+). Dark Fortune is still going to help, but only once.
tl;dr Lorgar/Lorgar Transfigured, but LT has a worse time of it and 3v1 either of them would probably struggle against Culexodes. 4v1 or just lucky dice, the Assassins win before he can even get into melee.
Just a note on Lorgar's shooting phase: it's shit, he gets 1 BS1 12" S6 AP3 MC shot against a target with T4 and a 4++; a better than melee chance of Wounding the Culexus, but he can't use Psychic fuckery to improve his aim or anything like that, so only really worth mentioning for the sake of completeness. He might genuinely be better off throwing Frag at the Culexus, since it doesn't use BS and though it's harder to Wound the save won't change, but then you're getting into the vagaries of scatter dice, which are much harder to calculate with any certainty.
Also come to think of it, those Culexus grenades are potentially going to empower Lorgar/LT if used in the Shooting phase; assuming PotW can't autokill him because of Eternal Warrior, he could still easily lose a Wound (especially with reduced LD at short range) on any result, with something like a 1/24 chance of getting a better ++ save since the Culexus must be within 12" to use them that way (none of the other bonuses are going to make a difference in melee or shooting). Whether his saves can be taken (any psychic-type attack vs No Saves the No Saves of Any Kind Sprite) is debatable, but I'd give a firm No unless it's been FAQ'd that way already. He also has a 1/6 chance of losing a psychic power permanently, which doesn't matter if it's 1v1 or in bigger fights if the Culexus is in 12", but might make a difference if he loses all his powers before dispatching the Culexus (again, 3v1 is going to hurt Lorgar Transfigured a lot harder here, and might be worthwhile in a big game).
fucking based
nice user
His connection to the Chaos Gods and Chaos in general is just as strong id not stronfer.
How many Culexus does it take to bring down Magnus the Red? Stats and lore
>Culuxes
No amount of Assasins can kill lorgar as he is Daemon Primarch and thus immortal.
>He might genuinely be better off throwing Frag at the Culexus, since it doesn't use BS
the mental image of lorgar freaking out and throwing frags to try and stop the spooky skeleton men is pretty great
It's worth mentioning: if he WAS cut off, could a Culexus destroy or capture his soul using the Animus?
Probably bait, but whatever.
Thing is, his immortality is granted by the powers of Chaos. It's been shown in the fluff that the Daemon Primarchs aren't TRULY immortal like Vandal Savage, but their souls are salvaged by the Gods and their bodies are re-knit to further the Great Game. Ergo, he needs a psychic connection to the Gods to be revived, let alone use his psychic powers.
What OP is getting at, is that if a powerful Pariah were to cut him off from the Warp while he's killed, he'd be effectively mortal, if not wounded or banished altogether.
...That's not how it works at all you retard. Daemon Princes ARE immortal. You don't kill them with Pariahs- those do jack shit and are more likely to die in their presence as their sheer psychic power overwhelms them. You use specially blessed, highly rare melee weapons like swords or spears that are capable of permanently killing daemons, of which only a couple people/organizations have access to. Unless you have one of those special blades, you aren't perma killing shit.
Oh man I remember that!
True, but if you can banish them back to the Warp for 1000 years and a day with a good butt kicking, that works fine.
Hmm. OK.
Based on the limited rules available so far, it's probably going to come out similarly to Lorgar, because of the Psyker thing. Culexus force psykers to attack at WS1 and BS1, and while DaemonMagnus has the same Initiative as a Culexus and more attacks (and sufficient strength to Instant Death if even one melee attack connects and doesn't get saved), but DaeMags' ranged attacks seem to be limited to psychic powers so far as I can guess; maybe he can shoot a short-ranged beam from one of his weapons that isn't (technically) a psychic attack (though I'd expect that to get FAQ'd pretty fast).
His only real option against the Culexus is to spaz into melee, or maybe to boop with a Vector Strike assuming. The advantage to that is that he gets a free automatic hit and then (potentially) moves out of range, at the very least out of range of those Perils of the Warp grenades. That hit is also enough to smush the Culexus in one go and has the advantage that in Swooping mode DaeMags becomes very difficult for the Culexus to target, but unlike melee it has the disadvantage of granting just one hit, albeit one with a 5/12 (slightly over 40%) chance of killing the Culexus outright, rather than 6 chances (again, assuming he has a single melee weapon, because he can't gain bonus attacks on the charge or from psychic powers) at 5/36 each.
The main drawback to being in melee is that he's going to roll for initiative against the Culexus every time; if he loses, the Culexus has minimum 4 chances at something like I want to say 5/108 each to Wound, and, if DaeMags doesn't have Eternal Warrior, the potential for each of these Wounds to kill him outright per the Culexus' Life Drain rule.
The secondary drawback to being in melee is that DaeMags can't use his Warp Charge or even generate any. Given that he's got 15 powers and probably generates ridiculous charge, this is not going to be good for any army he's with other than in the biggest battles. Assuming 15 Warp Charge is his draw (rather than something randomized like we're all expecting), being in close proximity to the Culexus but not in melee is a very bad thing: it gives 18.5 shots to the Animus Speculum on an average Psychic Phase, each at BS8 (unless Magnus has specific wargear exemptions; beyond 12" he could also be protected by psykery but this would also mean just 3.5 shots for the Animus). Those BS8 shots each have a 1/6 chance of Wounding DaeMags for a 4++ save, so... 18 shots at a 1/12 chance of an unsaved Wound (and 1/36 for a Wound with Grounding, and 5/432 of an additional unsaved Wound on hitting the floor, though after Grounding the chance of that Wound alone is just 5/12) for every hit. Clearly Swooping is going to be his friend, though again, in larger battles some solid anti-air might pin him down. He may or may not have native It Will Not Die or FNP, so I can't really guess how readily he'll tank in this situation.
Two Culottes standing 12" either side could run him ragged with the Animus alone, and have the same chances of hurting him with Perils of the Warp as they do Lorgar, assuming DaeMags stays Gliding. Without knowing his points value it's hard to guess how many would be a natural counter, but I'd guess Magnus is rather pricier than Lorgar/LT, maybe a whole extra Culexus' worth for 4 on 1.
Actually come to think of it, Culexus force *everything* to attack at WS/BS 1, not just psykers.
To wrap this up: if Magnus is Swooping, the Animus' chance of an unsaved Wound on any given shot becomes just 1/72 with the chance of a secondary Wound from Grounding being about 1/500 in total. Swooping is your friend if you're a hyperchicken.
The it's a chaos novel, 100 culexus won't touch him. if it's an assassin's novel, 1 guy will cut through him and his personal guard with ease.
3.5 CSM codex, though the number of assassins wasn't given. In the original piece it was just ("just") Abaddon's Chosen, but the Officio Assassinorum dataslate added the big man himself to the hit list, which is fair enough.
Was also mentioned in the Medusa V campaign booklet, which stated that Ygethmor alone has survived at least seven assassination attempts (well, that's one way of reading it - another is that it was still only referring to this multi-assassin mission).
That kind of thinking is a problem in the Imperium - even if it was a thousand years and a day, and it says nowhere so, for a daemon it is nothing, also they are "alive" in the warp, plotting new plans, even influencing mortal plane.
Simply put, you cannot fully defeat a daemon, not without using the tesseract or one of the few special weapons that destroy their essence, and as said, there are very rare, there's like less then a score of them.
>Lorgar
>badass
But at the end of the day he is himeslf. His power comes from his own determination and ambition. That's the entire point of the character
How does one survive an assassin attack? Especially vindicares and culexus, once they have you in their sights you're pretty much fucked
Culexus you really just need high toughness and an invulnerable save granted by wargear (because psychic powers won't work).
Vindicare... I don't know. Again a ++ is possibly going to help and I think high Toughness would too, but I think probably the only safe defense is having lots of Wounds to spare and staying out of range/sight. Make it come to you kind of thing.