Hey Veeky Forums...

Hey Veeky Forums, how do you guys go about dealing with players who fudge stats and rolls when you yourself are also a player? Bit of background first

>Be in group for ~4 years
>Friends from highschool and some others come and go, we're all pretty close now
>Notice in earlier years that our barbarian player A, never fails a roll and has never critically fumbled, to the point where it's suspect
>He openly tells me that if he rolls under 10 he adds 10 to that before adding his modifier
>Cue newer player R, mostly just flat out lies about dice rolls, did that to a major degree in a shadowrun campaign I ran too
>Finally comes P, who's one of the originals. I noticed in the new campaign I'm in with him as a gm, he fudges damage and saves from things to make things super lethal because he thinks high body count+unsaveable traps means a good campaign. Also I'm with him as a player in another campaign and can see that his character ability modifiers are fudged (eg. 15 with a +5 mod).

I just wanna play a fair game with people where the cheaters don't outshine everyone else by cheating because they can't handle shit going wrong. Is that really too much to ask??

Not that it matters but I forgot one more part about A

>Has impossible point buy builds for both him and his girlfriend in P's campaign that P doesn't call out because a)He isn't the type to read or understand rules and b)A hosts our campaign so we're worried it'd piss him off

If you're at a table, have everyone roll in the center except the gm. If you're online you should see everyone's rolls anyways. Problems solved.

Have your GM examine character sheets before entry. Also done. If the group does not support either of these, then there's no way it will change because the GM doesn't care enough.

The GM can't cheat. They control the game, and they're free to do anything as long as they believe it makes the game more fun. If they're mistaken and it's harming the experience, that's the problem rather than the fudging itself.

The rest, though? It's difficult. I'd say 'don't play with them', but I know a lot of people don't have that luxury.

Leave? Or get your DM to fucking know the players' characters, and actually watch these assholes roll.

I'll try to bring that up tonight in P's campaign. Their fudging has lead to an escalation in saves that only the cheaters are able to make, leaving the rest of us basically useless or dead.

As for the other campaign it's run by a rules lawyer so I'm hoping he'll be more receptive

Currently setting up a campaign to run Rappan Athuk with some other friends. But it is difficult considering I've done this for 4 years with them and most of them are really close friends so it'd be very weird. Oh how I wish I could be like the one player who just sits at the table producing music and watching memes and just generally not caring because he can't beat the fudging

At this point it might just be worth bringing it up openly at the start of a session. Not naming any names (although in a small group it'll be pretty clear) but pointing out that a lot of the actions up to that point have been mathematically impossible and the escalation is directly hurting your experience while you're still sticking to the rules as they're written.

Your group sounds like shit.

That's a fair idea. I'm just worried that it'll just be countered by "Why are you salty because you're not good" or some equally stupid thing

Just say what you rolled without actually rolling anything.

Or put on your big boy pants and call the other players out for cheating at D&D.

This is not a system specific problem, though.

Then bring along the maths to prove your points, just in case.

Good plan, I'll be taking some notes while trying not to seem like an autist. The fudger's in question haven't shared their character sheets in the campaign I'm heading to tonight

What's the big problem? Give them a cup for dice.
They use the cup, they roll, they can't do shit about the outcome, then everyone counts all their modifiers alound.
This has three positive outcomes:
- makes cheating impossible
- everyone learns how rules works pretty fast
- GM has much, much less work to do

I usually start running games for new players, doing this. They learn rules extra quick and they know that I know when they even try to cheat or fudge something

We've tried the cup method, but players just pull the cup towards them before they roll and pick up the dice really quick

Then say that everyone should reveal their character sheets, so you can help make sure nobody has made any mistakes or completely innocent math errors. It gives people who've cheated a way out without losing face.

We're halfway through the campaign I think it's a bit late to pull that. I guess I could try asking to check their sheets to compare skills or saves or some shit

Bring it up as a topic before starting the session.
If they refuse to stop, they'll either have to do important rolls openly or have the GM do the rolls for them.

It's the perfect time. Sure, you're paying attention to all that stuff in chargen, but as you're levelling up and adding stuff, it's easy to change you rmind and shuffle points around but lose track of the total, ending up a little high or low. That's legitimately happened a few times ,and if you're noticing the numbers seeming screwy it's a fair euphemism to use as a vector to get things straightened out.

That's actually a really good point. We also have a rules lawyer in the campaign (Mostly in a good way since the GM doesn't know shit when it comes to rules) so I'll have at least 1 supporter

Taking a look at the character sheets should be standard for the GM so he can prepare a campaign that doesn't leave the entire party (or part of it) completely useless.

If only I could convince my current GM to pull his head out of his ass and do that.

Dice tower, user.
I have driven cheaters from my game with them.

Kick them out.
It's that fucking simple. Can't play fair? Then won't play at all

I had this same problem, so I came up with an idea to stroke egos and shame cheats.
I bought a lovely, fairly pricey, dice tray. Nice wooden jobby, velvet, the works. I put it in the center of the table and said, "Let's use this, it's so nice after all."
Anyone who didn't got funny looks until they relented and started using it.
It's manipulation sure, but fuck it.

Why are so many people in this thread scared of calling out other players for cheating

Are you worried they're going to unfriend you on Facebook or whatever teenagers do these days instead of hitting each other

Talk to the DM, you fucking subhuman autist.

>The fudger's in question haven't shared their character sheets in the campaign I'm heading to tonight

How is that even possible? As a GM, the first thing I do is to examine everyone's sheet. If possible, I look at the sheets before even preparing the script and the encounters for the adventure. I mean, not looking at the sheets is like directing a movie without knowing who are the protagonists.

"I didn't see that dice, roll again please". In case he gets bitchy about losing his super roll tell him "don't pick your dice so quick next time and this won't happen".

Just tell them to stop cheating?
Jesus, what the fuck?!
If players cheat even if told to stop, just get rid of them. It's not a rocket science, m8

Dice tray in the middle of the table where everyone can see.

If the roll doesn't land in the tray, it doesn't count. If you touch the tray after you roll, it counts as rolling a 1.

>I can't talk to people, what should I do Veeky Forums
Holding your breath for 30 minutes should do the trick

Well I mean the hard part in this situation is that the GM in one campaign is also one of the people who cheat when they're players, it may not go over well to have him angry at me. Also I'd really like to not have to find another non-autistic group

>using fumble rules
It's your own damn fault.
Seriously, though, find better players. If your entire group is made up of people who see nothing wrong with cheating, there's no way you can stop it other than quitting.

Yeah he started us off with some pregens but hasn't checked anything afterwards, even though some his pregens have been fudged to hell and back and I'm surprised he hasn't noticed

user, here is the deal
Either tell them to stop, or shut the fuck up and stop crying on Veeky Forums how shitty is your party.
Because your inaction and being a total pussy is part of the problem.

Snitches get Stitches.

Fine, just kill yourself.

Is that the advice you wanted, you pathetic subhuman fuckup? Because this is goddamn sad.

I don't know how you've gotten so far, or how the GM has tolerated it.

Pretty much all you can do is air your concerns in the open and say "this shit is making the game less fun, and here's why". Or bring your grievance in private to the GM and see if he wants to handle it. And then, yes, play with dice cups and a tray in the middle of the table.

I get that they're your friends, and it seems cheating has been tolerated for so long that they don't even hide it... but seriously, at this point, why not just play video games or cards, or some narrative game with "story points"?

Playing a game based on weighted randomness and cheating just so you can go HAW HAW LOOKIT THAT I WIN AGAIN WHODA THOUGHT I GUESS I'M JUST THAT GOOD seems incredibly sad.

FWIW I find rules light games easier to supervise as a GM. If you have 20-40 numbers on a sheet with interdependent modifiers, it's damn near impossible to make sure players are doing it all right (whether because of mistakes or to cheat).

If you talk to the GM about it in private, and he gets pissed off, you already are in an autistic group.

>The GM can't cheat.
That's like saying the referee can't cheat in football. It's like saying a judge can't cheat in Magic tournaments. The GM is the arbitrator of the rules. The GM cheating is far worse than players cheating. It's a betrayal of the entire group's trust. You might as well not use rules at all.

Do you know Rule 0?

>mentions people cheating in shadowrun in the op
Shh, he just doesn't know how to read

Yes. And it's a cop-out unless everyone is in on any rule changes from the start of the game.

Rule 0 is a license to house rule. It isn't a license for cheating and favoritism.

There are rules, but at heart it is a matter of collaborative storytelling. The GM decides what the ability-scores of your opponents are, what the DC of the traps, locks and skillchecks are.
He/she decides what monsters attack you when.

The DM fudging a diceroll in the interest of good storytelling is not "cheating", it is literally the reason for the DM-screen.

there is a difference between Cheating and Rule 0

One is done for your personal enjoyment while the other is done for the others enjoyment.

It is, actually.

...

What kind of shitty cheater doesn't care about the others cheating? Like, that's cheating 101, if everyone cheats openly you may as well play by the rules since it's not benefiting you.

sometimes it's about who can cheat better

but in this case, they are likely all simply retarded.

Rule 0 doesn't mean "Cheating". It means over-ruling the crunch, you fucking sperg

You failed to mention a single game that can be compared to roleplaying games. All those are competitive games and the referee and the judge cannot be compared to the DM, just like two teams of football playing against each other cannot be compared to a party of PCs.

The DM can and should """cheat""" if it is in the benefit of the players enjoyment. I'm amazed at how this is debatable at all. You might as well consider it a competitive game of DM vs players if the rules are the same for both.

That user wasn't using cheating in the sense you're doing, and you know it.

The cheating GM is a concept born of adversarial GM vs Players gameplay. It's where "rocks fall" comes from. It needs to be fair for everyone, GM and players alike, or it's a slippery slope to trying to "beat" your players. Or, just as bad, coddling them with no actual risk and thus no point to playing.

>The cheating GM is a concept born of adversarial GM vs Players gameplay.

For you. And to be honest, I don't understand how. For, if it was a competition, it would make sense that the rules apply to everyone in the same way. But, since it's not, making the DM subjected to the rules like a player directly harms his work.

>It's where "rocks fall" comes from.
This is not cheating, the DM can have rocks in his story and improvising is one of his tools, so he really isn't going against any rule. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is actually a proof of my point: there's good and bad DMs, and cheating is not a factor on this. So are the rest of your examples, which can be done with or without cheating.

"Rocks fall, everyone dies" is cheating. It's ignoring dice rolls to just flat-out kill the characters without allowing them to respond or rolling damage or anything. Just because it doesn't fit your narrative of "cheating is good" doesn't change the fact that it's ignoring and changing the rules to provide the GM with the outcome he or she desires. Cheating, in other words.

The rock falls has literally nothing to do with cheating, you fucking moron.
It's like you don't see the difference between actively changing the outcome of the dice and putting things in the game, sitting one next to another and branding them cheating.

Do you even story-tell?

What rule says the GM can't do this?

What's the actual difference between killing your players with dice-less rocks and dice determined rocks? I can say rocks fall, roll me this difficulty you cannot overcome (ie everyone dies). This isn't cheating, I can do that as a DM unless you're using a completely unique definition of cheating that revolves around your feels being hurt by the action. It's the equivalent of a player saying "I awaken the dragon because I'm tired of this character and I want to die". It's not fun or fair and it goes directly against the amusement of everyone, but not cheating.

Dodge skills to avoid the rocks, falling damage rules, armor rules, HP, etc, etc, etc. You have to ignore or change a whole lot about how the game functions for "rocks fall" to work.

...

>What rule says the GM can't do this?
the rule that says "if you don't have something planned post-rocks, i'm gonna punch you in the left nut."

What's the difference between saying "the rocks do enough damage to kill you" and adding X to the dice roll behind your GM screen, where X is an arbitrary value high enough to kill the PCs? Nothing. They're both cheating. One is just taking out a step.

What kind of game allows a normal PC to survive tons of rocks falling on his head? Remember the rules allow me to put enough rules for you to not be able to escape the area with your movement.

Let me get this straight
Rock falls is pretty much classic punishment GM does to players that outright derailed the game to the point where there is no reason to continue.
And you want to punch a GM that right now punished you for ruining the game?

Well lad, neck yourself

>two things are similar because they both kill the PC
>therefore they're similar at everything and are both the same

You know, this reminds me very sad truth.

About 80% of Veeky Forums users never played a TTRPG in their life.
And you are part of that 80%

I'm the main guy defending cheating and, to be honest, I would never defend this passive-aggressive behaviour.

Nice circular logic you have here.

Any more fallacies to share?

yes, for not simply saying "hey guys, this isn't fun anymore. I'm done DMing for awhile.

>Rock falls
>Passive-aggressive
Pick one

How new to the hobby are you?

No, seriously, how new are you? Because either this, or you are clinically autistic. Not just as an offense, but having actual, real autism.

Passive-aggressive: I killed your fictional character because i dont like what you did.

Aggressive-aggressive: I punched your left nut because i dont like what you did.

>How new to the hobby are you?
15+ years, i'm sorry you don't have groups where you can maturely explain your grievances.

I've run games for over a decade, bud.

Cheaters are pieces of shit, whether GM or player. Either way it's a betrayal of trust. There's a reason the rulebook exists.

we know that's really your porn folder user.
and it's pathetically small.

>If you talk to your players, you are autistic

This is a new fucking low.

It is pretty small, yeah.

Then explain me how a guy with 15+ years of experience doesn't understand "rock falls" in action - the purpose, the reason, the status and everything else related.

I'm curious now.

I'm not even Anglophone, and and "rock falls" is a phase in my country too.

>and it's pathetically small.
That's why user resorts to porn.

>RPG books
>Not even 4 GB
That's suppose to be impressive?

My materials for Twilight 2000 weight alone 2.5 GB

...

That's all shit I actually own. Not pirated. Not counting the physical books on my shelf. But sure thing.

because i DO understand "the purpose, the reason, the status and everything else related."
the purpose is for the GM to ragequit the campaign and give as big a "Fuck you!" to the players as he can muster.

What do you keep in it? Because that's around 0.7 MB per file.
Which looks a lot like a stache of nudes you fap to

that's still pretty pathetic, user. Even by my broke-ass standards

user, not to repeat myself: Try harder when trying to convince everyone how hardcore you are in the hobby.

Change.
Group.

It's 99% hentai. I don't like video. I hate gif.

Might be because I actually run and sometimes play, rather than consoling myself with thousands of books I never use. But whatever makes you feel better.

Well were at the point of who can cheat better at this point and I'm losing

Funny, because I run games every Wednesday and Friday for past 12 years. Playing since '98.
Oh, and there is also the bi-weekly game I held in local culture centre for the kids.

I sure as hell should force a single system on everything or insist that everyone likes GURPS!

Speaking of GURPS - this shit alone weights 6 GB and my collection only has bare essentials

Isn't the standard protocol to execute the filth?

But also, it's up to the GM and players to make even failed rolls entertaining.

Or maybe you are just pathetic at lying?

While doing so on anonymous Vietnamese imageboard. What for? Have you even asked yourself that important question?

The roll is always 1 unless I, as GM, see it. If it falls off the table, it's rerolled.
If I'm rolling hot and it's prolonging an encounter or causing the players significant setbacks, I'll sometimes dial it back a bit.

So you are playing the same system over and over and over for years?

Sounds like 3.X pleb presenting sunk cost fallacy at full swing.

I have the signed collector's on my shelf, but I can never convince my players to play. Except once. For two sessions. I only buy splatbooks for games I've run. I do buy a lot of core books, though.

I've run (that I recall and in rough chronological order):

Exalted 2e
FUDGE
Burning Wheel
Changeling: the Lost 1e
Hunter: the Vigil 1e
Various other nWoD books (Mortals, geist, mage mostly)
BESM
In Nomine
Ars Magica 5th Edition
MaidRPG
Magical Burst
GURPS
REIGN
Legend of the Five Rings
Traveller
Eclipse Phase
Vampire: the Requiem 2e
N.E.W.
RuneQuest 6

>Still trying

...

Right? I mean, my 5th ed and pathfinder folder, alone, is almost 5gb and i barely even get to play. And this retard is trying to swing is tg-peen all around here.

user, your collection is pathetic, their is no coming back from this, just bow out gracefully and know that we are all laughing at you.

Do what anyone else would do in this situation and come back in 5 minutes pretending to be someone else.

I'm not sure you understand how anonymous boards work.
Why are you getting so personally invested into this, while people in the same time are baiting you in most obvious way?

What? You are new to the internet too?

It's broader than D&D, but it's still the D&D mindset, which is to say that it's gamist and adversarial. It could be remedied by playing something that can't really work that way, maybe.