Should the "charisma" attribute be interpreted as having anything to do with physical attractiveness as it classically...

I've normally run it as a metaphysical trait representing your strength of will on others. Sort of like how Con is strength of self, and STR is strength against others, WIS is self willpower and CHA is strength of willpower on others.

Like, if one were to equate the mental and physical stats in D&D is would be:

STR = CHA
INT = DEX
WIS = CON

But that was how I've perceived it for 25+ years. It solved a lot of problems in my games.

TL;DR - I treat it as intangible physically.

>Captcha - Select all images with tea

Appropriate for this NPC.

>A chubby girl with high charisma will awaken something primal inside of you.

Charisma is like coolness.

the higher your charisma, the better you're able to hide your autism

Depends partly on the game system.
Are attractiveness and Charisma separate attributes?
If yes, Charisma is not about beauty but leadership, power of presence, and how likeable your character is - Are they the cool guy or not.

If not, I'd split it both ways. Half representing attractiveness, half representing leadership personality.

Ah, this old argument.

It might help to be good looking, but it is by no means necessary.

Incidentally pic related is my go-to for when anyone asks this question - when you punch a colleague (over, I shit you not, a lack of steak) and a good portion of the general public calls for the punched person to be fired, when on being fired for said punch you are pretty much immediately hired by another company and given more money, both for yourself and your show, when you've already gathered a huge stack of controversies and been retained up to the point of the punch anyway, when you regularly party with the politico-media set, and you have at least a few affairs despite being as fat, old, unstylish, ugly and in such a low-significance field (seriously, he's just a car journalist) as Clarkson, THAT is some damn high charisma

> "Ugly: 4" trait that would be a negative modifier to seduction checks but changes to a bonus for intimidation checks
"Ugly" does not necessarily mean "intimidating". Hell, a lot of people have looks that at the same time make them attractive and intimidating if need be, like Vinnie Jones; on the opposite side of that are people like Danny DeVito, whose looks are a detriment to potential intimidation attempts. I'd make "attractive" and "imposing" and their opposites modular appearance traits, with players having to spend resources to make their ugly characters also scary.

Some games have CHA as a stat and also have Beauty as a trait that boosts or reduces CHA. That seems to work well.

> ugly
Please. He doesn't look after himself, and even if he did, he wouldn't be even just above average, but ugly? You're stretching it.

the best way to do it is to make it an aggregate level of general attractiveness consistent with the other stats. A high int high cha character is a genius at speaking, a classic pickup artist etc. while a high str high cha character is a sexy beefcake or cheesecake. A general high cha without much else could be pretty in a general way or just kinda friendly or commanding in personality.

Ugly sunovabitch rat bastard with a touch of charm gets more chicks than nice dude with hot body who is laid back. Watched it happen so many times I never fail to laugh at these threads.

>I don't think physical attractiveness should be a stat of its own.
Why not? Physical attractiveness is the single most important factor in social cues. For example, an individual that does not display strong bilateral symmetry is, perhaps unfortunately, naturally highly shunned, because it is a unmistakable signal about the individual's health.

We can dance around all the semantics of waist-to-hip ratios and tertiary sexual characteristics all day, but at the end of the day, mate selection is not just part-and-parcel of animal behavior, but also the single most integral aspect of existence, upon which all other biologically-determined societal structures necessarily follow.

Thinking that 'how good someone looks' is somehow diminutive to 'strength' or 'charisma' is a complete farce.

It has been before. Before a certain point, D&D had nothing related to physical appearance. Then it added a physical appearance pseudo-stat (Not a sub stat, but not really a mainline stat either) as an optional rule, then did away with that and started implying that it was related to charisma.

Charisma is about force of will.

It governs your ability to sway your audience, whether it's via artistic display or diplomatic persuasion.

So, yeah, beautiful appearance gives a modifier to Charisma, but it's in no way definitive in how Charisma is measured.

tl;dr Appearance is merely circumstantial modifier to Charisma.

And before you argue with me, remember that Charisma governs things like creating objects of art, or intimidating people.

An ugly appearance that radiates power and confidence is more likely to intimidate someone than a beautiful appearance.

So, again, appearance is only a circumstantial modifier. Sometimes, beautiful appearance is beneficial, but other times it isn't.

Yeah. Plus, not separating the two makes it impossible rules-wise to have beautiful-but-uncharismatic characters, or vice-versa. Gorgeous dames with all the people skills of a sack of bricks, or a hideous hunchback who can manipulate anyone. That kind of thing.

Charisma just tends to be 'social awareness'.

The fact that it's separated from INT and WIS is ridiculous in the first place, but that's another issue.

Having it separate from 'beauty' is perhaps fine and realistic though.

There ought to be a degree of seperation between the three stats, but they should all have interactions with one another. As should all stats really. Depending on the situation.

Or you can not have appearance tied to a stat in the first place.

Nah. It's not even as awful as the notion that you -have- to be musclebound to have high STR.

>Or you can not have appearance tied to a stat in the first place.

Physical appearance is already a stat in real life. Everyone knows the difference between a 10 and a 7.

>Should the "charisma" attribute be interpreted as having anything to do with physical attractiveness as it classically has been
I believe Charisma and Attractiveness should be two different things entirely (with the latter perhaps being delegated to roleplay with no real mechanics behind it). In D&D at least CHA governs bluff, diplomacy and intimidation. Please explain how you're going to intimidate someone with your tits. You can't, even someone who literally hates women isn't afraid of tits and I'm speaking from experience here. Charisma is above all the ability to move people. When some barely trained militiamen on the frontier piss their pants at the very thought of having to fight orcish raiders but the grizzled, scarred general in his 50s manages to inspire them to fight and die for him with his very presence, that's charisma. When his very glare makes the orcish frontline buckle, that's charisma. When he manages to just walk up to the orcish general and snap his neck unopposed because all the other orcs believe he can shit lightning and fart earthquakes, that's charisma. Being pretty doesn't contribute to charisma and to a very large extent can even be detrimental.

Physical attractiveness should be an average of Str/dex/con and Charisma. The first start determines how they're physically attractive, and the charisma would be things like body language and shit.

>When some barely trained militiamen on the frontier piss their pants at the very thought of having to fight orcish raiders but the grizzled, scarred general in his 50s manages to inspire them to fight and die for him with his very presence, that's charisma.

Going further with this, seducing the orcish general to make his band go away also takes charisma, and I'm guessing the scarred old general might find that task a little tricky no matter how high his Charisma stat is. Meanwhile, the sexy little Rogue (literally 5'3) won't have an easy time intimidating the Orcs, even if she's hot enough to make a Lich go hard.

There's a lot of interplay between physical appearance and your ability to convince people.

>intimidate with your tits

Depends on the setting. But supposing there is some fairly well known warrior woman god that is most commonly depicted and known to be a beautiful and busty woman, someone who resembles that depiction ought to get a bonus.

>Pure Cha = Conventionally attractive
>Str/Cha = Veeky Forums
>Dex/Cha = lean/slender
>Con/Cha = chubby/curvy
>Str/Dex/Con/Cha = Strong yet slender core with childbearing hips and breasts made for feeding
Sound about right?

What about if a high Cha character gets horribly maimed in a fire? Can your blushing anime girl reply to that one?!

Anime girls can answer everything.

That's pretty much what I had in mind, yea.

Depends on the system. Some include a physical attractiveness attribute independent of charisma, some don't.

You are aware that a high con indicates high general health and endurance.
If anything, Con would be fit and toned.
Str can be raw bulk, more likely to get your Zarya's there.

Shsh.
OP is obviously a hold out from the "comeliness" crowd. Before it was discovered that different dicks get hard for different traits and thus attractive can't be objectively quantified.
Their definition of Classic is likely 1st Ed.

Should Int have a physical effect on characters?

Balding, fat, clumsy, wizened and with British teeth? Not to mention his dress sense? Yeah, no. He's ugly. The only positive physical attribute he has is height.

Still charismatic as fuck though.

You don't seem to understand what "ugly" means.

Body language and physical awareness, maybe. Probably not the meme you were hoping for but it's something.

>classically has been,
People don't actually read the basics of the book as carefully as they think they do.

I've never interpreted it as physical attractiveness but it does have a lot to do with how much you value your appearance and some GMs I've played with have even made you roll for comeliness (not that it's ever really had an impact on the game).

I've always considered charisma to be an indescribable aura of authority.

Everyone knows that person that can talk all kinds of shit, but sounds like they know what they're talking about. They frame the conversation and deliver their input in such a way to make them sympathetic or coercive or whatever. Opposing them would just seem wrong or mistaken. The higher the charisma, the easier it is for them to make others doubt their own senses in favor of the speakers.

It's hotter to be able to say my PC is objectively a cutie.

neither. stats determine how likely a character is to succeed at a task based on that stat.

A warrior with high str dex and con doesn't need a stellar cha score to get the ladies. on the other hand, a nice rack is purely a physical trait, but some women got it, some fake it, and some are just bitter about it.

No they don't; we live in a world filled with idiots who think Taylor Swift is a 10. Alternatively, people who are turned on by heaping rolls of fat.

It makes sense to have INT and CHA separate in a world with hermit wizards who study magic at the expense of every other mortal concern. WIS and CHA could be more closely tied together, I think. But then, we could spend all day arguing about the details of how certain stats work. Like the fact that STR increases your chance to hit, makes it a bit hard to have a clumsy brute who doesn't know how to swing a sword.

>Please explain how you're going to intimidate someone with your tits
You could.

>people who disagree with me are idiots

Someone with high Charisma has a strong sense of self and willpower, and are skilled at displaying various appearances- if they want to seem alluring, they know how to do it. But they can also make themselves seem more meek, or intimidating and dangerous, present themselves as courtly or bonafide ruffian if needed. That said, the strong will associated with these traits often leads to them simply taking on one very pronounced visage that gets them far (persuasion focused) or being able to say whatever others need to hear to invoke a desired reaction (deception focused)
A hulking barbarian could still be quite intimidating, or a ranger have a bombshell body, or a bookish and frail mage be charmingly cute, but all could have awful charisma, leaving them unable to control how they appear, and those traits to expose their negative sides as well; the barbarian can't interact with people because his bad temper or misleading appearance thwart him, the ranger has now knowledge or attention of how to use their looks to their advantage, and the shy mage really gets annoying even if endearing.

>Please explain how you're going to intimidate someone with your tits.
Threaten to smother someone?
Hell if you go for a Str/Tits build you could threaten to crush their head instead

>Like the fact that STR increases your chance to hit
Pretty sure that's because AC is both Armor and Dodge.

Which is also ridiculous.

But I mean, try to imagine a low INT high CHA character. Can't even speak but can con twelve noblemen into fellating him with gold leaf tongues.

>Wis/Cha - motherly
>Int/Cha - smug

I'm imagining someone who doesn't have the slightest fucking clue what they are talking about but is really good at sounding like they do.

Freddy Krueger is charismatic as fuck, so the second one.

>They asked me how well I understood theoretical physics. I said I had a theoretical degree in physics. They said welcome aboard.

thats why i love my system, its easy in that regard:
being ugly or beautiful are traits in different degrees which can influence social skills and charisma is a stat defined as followed (roughly translated):

Aura/presence and empathie. charisma tells how good the PC can navigate society and how strong he influences others. it supports most social interaction skills bcs of that. charisma mirrors how fast people will trust him and how fascinating and attractive(non physical) he appears to be to others. also it allows the PC act more inspiring, autoritarian, compliant, erotic, submissive/subservient etc

D&D 4e and D&D 5e both excised "appearance" from the definition of Charisma.

D&D 4e, Player's Handbook 1, page 17:
>Charisma (Cha) measures your force of personality, persuasiveness, and leadership.

D&D 5e, Player's Handbook, page 12:
>Charisma
>Measures: Confidence, eloquence, leadership

If you are playing either edition, then Charisma is completely irrelevant to appearance.

Taking an ass-to-mouth cumshot isn't a feature of charisma, that's just fat girls being good girls.

there's also bacontits from that one Vn about cripples.

Also ridiculously unsanitary.

Man, when my monk dies i wanna play as remi. That'd be fun as shit. It'd also be MAD as fuck though.

The way I see it it's
>Players with high cha can choose to either be attractive or unattractive.
>Players with low cha are always buttfuck ugly.

If people don't want to choose we usually do D20+Cha mod and that's your bangability score.

/thread.

This is a better way to handle it from my own experience. People with high or higher than average CHA can choose whether it's because they're physically attractive, magnetic, charming etc. Whatever they like. People with low CHA are basically ugly (and unremarkable) or they're average (at best) and have something off about them.

In AD&D they introduced Comliness. Our group had arguments about wether this attribute would decline if the character avoided bathing, wrestled an Otoyugh, zombie or giant slug, or didnt clean blood of themselves after a fight.

Just give all characters Comeliness you fuck.

I agree, piggy girls are unsanitary.

Wouldn't physical appearance simply be a modifier depending on the test you are undertaking via your charisma?

Like if its a seduction then being attractive to the mark is an important factor, not so much if you are trying to intimidate when infact a fucked up appearance might be more useful

Have I got an ability score set for you.

By the 3rd time some munchkin uses Charisma as their dumpstat but claims their character is beautiful, just unsocial, it gets old. So we use the following:

Apearance is PART of Charisma. How big a part is up to the player until you get to extreme ends of the spectrum. If you've dumped Charisma to the very lowest level possible, then you are not only an abrasive shit, you are disgustingly ugly. Similarly, if you've maxed Charisma, you're probably beautiful and attractive.

But Charisma simply measures your social ability. You can be a perfect 10 in the looks department and still have all the people skills of a baked potato.

The beautiful, radiant, hideously spoiled Princess. The handsome-but-incredibly-irritating Knight. Whatever benefit their looks give them is canceled out almost as soon as they start talking.

>as it classically has been

[citation needed]

That's the trap. They only have to prove people that disagree with them exist and they win. Way to walk into it.

Should the "Strength" attribute be interpreted as having anythign to do with physical constitution?
The answer is not really, nothing is stopping you from making a character with 18 CHA and describing him as ugly, just like making a character with 18 STR and saying that he's a twig.
The thing is that it's always better when the character reflect its stats

Charisma is persuasive ability, magnetism of personality, and skill at manipulating others' opinions. A person could look awful and still have others firmly convinced they're a good leader because they can shout the best, look at the last US election. A strong person could have different body definitions- herculean heroic statuesque muscles, Schwarzenegger/Jojos build, heck, sumo wrestlers are massively strong. However, charisma is a mental stat while strength is physical, so of course it will (often) belay a certain appearance.
Of course, if there's a reason for a twig to be ridiculously strong, it's fine.

>Int/Cha - smug

You must've meant high INT, low CHA

This man was the sex symbol of his generation. Women flocked to him; men wanted to be him. He was the symbol of masculinity, acted in dozens of films across multiple genres, and is so identified with the film noir genre that to this date you can't have a hero in a detective movie that isn't influenced by his performance in some way.

He also acted in the greatest love/war film of all time, as a romantic lead.

He looked like this.

You think that's bad? Benedict Cumberbatch was declared sexiest man of 2015 despite looking like a fucking alien.

high int / low cha is bazinga man and other autismos

the key facet of proper smug is that you get away with it

>Olivia Wilde
>attractive

They should be outside the skill system, and be traits that add a bonus or penalty. Between two people of equal charismatic skill and bearing, one beautiful and one ugly, the beautiful one is going to be able to convince more people to do what they want or be more inspiring. If you want to get into cultural standards semantics you can have things like "Beauty (Human)" +1 charisma against humans -1 against trolls or whatever.

It's whatever the fuck you want, dude. We've had this thread a million times and the conversation never goes anywhere.

>the key facet of proper smug is that you get away with it

The problem is that smug normally has negative connotations. And while I can see a high int/high CHA character occasionally getting away with it, they've also got to know when to give it a rest.

How does looking alien subtract from beauty? Certain "Off" traits can often enhance other features. His tiny little eyes just call just the right amount of attention to his adorable little cheekbones.

It is in many systems; either through an attractiveness perk/talent, or separate derivative statistic.

Separate from physicality.

I like you user.
/thread

youtube.com/watch?v=HDOykb7WJz0

sauce?

No.

Some do and some don't consider physical attractiveness into Charisma, but I've always felt that it should be a separate stat that boosts Charisma rolls.

Then you'd also need another stat that determines resistance/vulnerability to an attractiveness stat to check against rolls.

The best option is probably a trait that specifies your character is very attractive, and gives a + whatever amount to charisma rolls; and larger boost to rolls made against the opposite sex, or anything that would want to fug your character (I don't know if the SJWs are still shitting up tabletop gaming).

>Its both and/or either.
This

>implying smug isn't sexy

>implying it is

And the thread's devolved into limousine liberal hipsteristic journalism now.

Should have died a long time ago.