/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

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>Mage 2e Errata
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This week's Monday Meeting Notes:
theonyxpath.com/chronicling-a-dark-year-monday-meeting-notes/
>Question
Alright pick your least favorite gameline, now what idea did it introduce that you enjoyed?

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Beast's Lairs are neat.

Seconded.

Chronicles of fagness

Manic Brutality (•••):Your character lashes out with a singleminded determination to destroy. Her all-out unarmed attacks
have a +1 bonus to hit specified targets. If she’s using a weapon
then she may substitute its Durability for its weapon bonus.
>Drawback: If she’s using a weapon, then all damage taken
by her opponent is also applied directly to the weapon’s
Structure.

This sounds like a lot of bullshit. By RAW the Structure of, say, a battle axe would be about 6 (steel's Durability 3 + Size 3). Therefore dealing 6 or ore damage (easily possible with a +3 weapon) destroys it.

Is it supposed to work like that?

The styles are overall full of stupid (like the dot in Bowmanship that lets you decrease the damage value of a bow to an arbitrary number for a fixed +1 bonus), but this jumped out at my group the most.

>Alright pick your least favorite gameline, now what idea did it introduce that you enjoyed?

The fact that i can reffer to Deviant as Deviant the artening.

And geist has a cool key mottiff i guess.

Best host coming through

I guess Mummy's idea of waking up powerful and getting weaker is neat.

I kinda wish all of Secrets of the Covenants had been like the Carthian chapter and explored what various domains across the globe looked like. You could basically play Hanoi right out of the book.

I don't think the person who wrote the San Diego chapter has ever read a single thing about the city, let alone visited or lived there.

I'm not terribly fond of Werewolf, but I absolutely loved Hunting Ground: Sumer and the campaign frame it introduced.

>not liking Mummy

How much time until we see some crunch from Hunter 2e?

They JUST asked if people would like to see a Hunter2e kickstarter. So maybe by 2030.

Honestly I would have preferred the kind of info Carthian chapter puts down, just without the in-character zine stuff. I think following the lead of the Clanbooks for the book's setting and fictional material was not the best decision for the first book in a new line. I always appreciate OPP/WW's dedication to making the rule books enjoyable to read, but I think when it comes to X and Y splats, it's better to write about them out-of-setting for dedicated splatbooks.

How would you pitch Mummy to someone who has no interest in it in 3 sentences or less?

It's a game that breaks a lot of the rules you've come to expect out of a roleplaying narrative and it lets you explore damn near any part of history all in the course of the same chronicle with the same cast.

Also, it lets you indulge your Egyptomanical tendencies, should you have them.

How would you pitch Egypt to someone who has no interest in it in three sentences or less?

>Alright pick your least favorite gameline, now what idea did it introduce that you enjoyed?

Since people already picked Beast and Lairs, I'll go with Mummy. I really liked the way in Mummy how they found a way to work in all the little pop culture details from shambling corpses that protect tombs who move so slowly but always seem to be right on you, to why Imhotep looks more human as the movie goes on, to GRAND PHARAOH MAGIC AND CURSE

So I'm making plans for running a V:tM game, and I want to make some clarifications about True Faith. Firstly, I want to make it clear that Faith scores for mortals are not dependent on their Humanity; True Faith will reasonably often accompany vile deeds (the Society of Leopold is a major enemy here, after all). Only vampires need Humanity 9 to use it, because it represents how tightly one's Beast is controlled; True Faith is anathema to the Beast, which is why it harms vampires.
As a corollary to this, there are also certain Paths of Enlightenment that will give access to True Faith with a rating of 9 or 10. The ones that use both Conviction and Instinct are all too selfish or too involved with embracing vampirism itself for Faith to manifest, but ones that use Conscience, Self-Control or both just use alternative ethical codes that Faith can find itself in; I don't think anyone's imagination would be taxed by a vampire on the Path of Blood, Paradox or Sutekh wielding True Faith. How does this sound?

As a sidenote, how do I weed out potentially problematic players early, since I need to find people online and don't have a ready stable?

But can I set my chronicle in a time where I can kill/replace the idea of Hathor with Isis or myself.

You absolutely can. Irem predates Egypt by a good long while. Egypt is a pale reflection.

Coolest gods in the ancient world and a pretty damn compelling aesthetic.

Irem predates Egypt significantly, though the Egyptians kind of misappropriate their gods.

And it's Het-Heru and Aset, if you're really being cool.I'm working on some pagan nonsense for myself with Het-Heru.

Structure is Durability+Size.
Breaking a weapon in exchange for hire damage is not a bad trade off, and also awesome from a narrative standpoint.
I love the fighting styles. The one that other archery one has a dot that lets you dodge a melee attack and hit someone with your bow, and Two Weapon Fighting is a creative solution to avoiding some of the flaws of multiple attacks.

>Coolest gods in the ancient world and a pretty damn compelling aesthetic.
You're going to have to pitch harder than that.

Trying to think of really simple ways to fuck with a martial arts Mage in my game.
The simpler the better.

Can anyone do better than increasing her clothing's Durability while also deceasing its pliability, so he can't even move?

Life Magic to give yourself Arcane Steroids.
Space Magic to open portals in space/time and hit guys across the street.
Forces magic to cover yourself in fire as you wrestle people.

>I kinda wish all of Secrets of the Covenants had been like the Carthian chapter and explored what various domains across the globe looked like. You could basically play Hanoi right out of the book.

Isnt the Carthian chapter reviled as it just paint the whole covenant anarchs and little else?

Speaking of which has anyone uploaded Secrets of the covenants or Hurt locker?

Something being reviled by this thread isn't an indicator of quality.

Narrator tone aside, Hanoi's section probably makes it the easiest of the in-universe chapters to use for your game.

No, I mean mess with the martial artist, not enhance her abilities.

Stuff like making her forget her martial arts skills (mind), rendering her incapable of feeling aggressive thoughts towards the target (mind), massively increasing the pain receptors in her hands such that one punch feels like breaking every tiny little bone in her hand (life), manipulating gravity to pull her into the middle of the room suspended in such a way as to not be able to touch anything (forces), manipulating space in front of you so her punches veer off at a 90 degree angle, making her trip over her own feet (Fate).

Nothing that's permanently crippling

Time Magic to create a miniature anomaly so everything they do is in slow motion.

I didn't find it terribly grating, and I loathe anarchism.

But yeah, Hanoi is basically playable right out of the book. I'd kill to play it, especially with flashbacks to the 60s.

>Structure is Durability+Size
That's how I calculated it, yes.

>Breaking a weapon in exchange for hire damage is not a bad trade off, and also awesome from a narrative standpoint.

It's utterly stupid. Are you suggesting that berserkers break their weapons in one-two hits? It's not even modified by durability, going straight to structure.

>It aint me intensifies.
Can I play Pic Related as an Invictus Knight and clean up those dirty commie Carthians?

Write a brief setting guide, short and sweet, that you want potential players to read.

In the middle of it, tell the player to add a certain word on their character sheet to confirm they read it.

Given that it would focus on native Vietnamese and that any American Kindred left in the city would likely be killed, probably not. Thought it could be fun to tie in some CIA fuckery, the Dreamers from Hurt Locker, Changeling, Hotel Mascaron, and Delta Green, but at that point things have gone a little bonkers.

You got a sense of Anarchism out of the book? New York's Carthians kind of struck me as overly idealistic, self-sabotaging direct democracy types applying an artificial punk edge than anything else. Granted I've only read the chapter once, so it's safe to say that I might not have picked up all the details.

>berserkers break their weapons in one-two hits

Yes yes they do

I think they're the sort of punks who like the sound of the word anarchism, but that could just be my bias against the Carthians sneaking in. There was a refreshing bit of cynicism wrt the Movement, which I appreciated hearing.

Never trust New York's Carthians, they'll just wait for your city to fail to live up to their high standards and then extract some of your people when you're not looking.

Granted all the examples in the book was shit that went way wrong but I'm just saying.

...Seriously? Have you ever seen a fire axe? It's extremely fucking hard to break that shit, especially on something relatively soft like humans. For that matter, have you seen a fucking tetsubo?

>Are you suggesting that berserkers break their weapons in one-two hits when using a fighting style maneuver specifically meant to be incredibly overpowering and pushing their weapons to the limit?
Yes.
Also, since improvised weapons use the lower of Durability or Size as their damage, you want to use it with that more so than a proper weapon like an battle axe (or fireaxe), which already has a Damage of 3. It's not that different from Breaking Point from the Improvised Weapon Style.

Anarchism as a political philosophy is all about democracy.
youtu.be/hFYwAmKZCbM

>Bias against Carthians
Carthians are the best, though.

The Circle is the best Covenant, silly.

>Also, since improvised weapons use the lower of Durability or Size as their damage, you want to use it with that more so than a proper weapon like an battle axe (or fireaxe), which already has a Damage of 3. It's not that different from Breaking Point from the Improvised Weapon Style.

I am not speaking from a meta standpoint here. It's a Berserker style that doesn't let you to make a typical norse berserker, with an axe (which is relevant, for instance, for the Dark Eras) which is what you'd expect the style to fucking model with some level of fidelity!

But you cannot be a berserker with an axe, mechanically, because your axe will break in 1-2 strikes. Awesome.

(Interestingly, were you to use this style with Mage and have a weapon made out of siderite, which is literally nigh indestructible, the weapon would STILL break, because the damage somehow magically bypasses durability.)

>berserks always have awesome weapons

Objective covenant ranking:
Ordo Dracul > Lancea et Sanctum (if played correctly) > Circle of the Crone >>> Invictus > Carthians >>> Lancea et Sanctum if played how most people probably play them (stand-ins for their fundamentalist parents)

>awesome weapons
>hardwood club with iron inlays
An exceedingly awesome weapon it ain't.

skill does not imply material
material does not imply skill

Yes, I meant the generic examples of the item. Obviously. My point is that it's (at some points extremely) hard to break a stout staff, piece of rebar, or a fire axe on a human body. Especially in two strikes -- the body would yield first.

I'd suggest saying that instead of the other ridiculous assertion you tried to pull

What fuckin Berserkers break using some nip weapon?

That's the one I remembered offhand. Imagine a morningstar or a flanged metal mace if you wish.

So I did a thing. Maybe you'll find it interesting
It all started, about 3 months ago with my DnD group complaining how bored they're become of their system. They've all been playing long enough that they know all the mechanics, all the monsters, and the game was becoming very rote. I'd never had the chance to play more then one on one sessions of requiem before, but it was rare chance so I jumped in with both feet. I set up a time to get them all together to talk about what it was they were look to get out of the game, which ended up taking like 6 hours because most of them were looking for different things. For all but one or two, the biggest thing they wanted to get away from, was their knowledge of the system and mechanics. So I helped them build concepts for their characters, then fill in the bare essentials of the character sheet.

I told them they'd be playing as vampires but they'd start off as humans first. I explained about the setting being a darker version of our world. I let them know there are supernatural creatures but that their character don't believes in them. I made sure I knew any topics that the player wouldn't be willing to play with.

Then I scheduled the first session.

I gave them no source book, no mechanics, and especially not knowledge about how vampires work in this setting. We've now played through 4 sessions, it's gotten really bumpy a couple of times, but over all I'd have to say it's going pretty well so far. Players all say they're having a lot of fun, I'm actually having trouble scheduling everybody together often enough to satisfy them.

Anyone else try anything like this before? Either way pointers, concerns, things I may not have considered. Any kind of constructive input at all. Questions also welcome.

>No one saying the correct answer, Belial's Brood

First off:
is 100% correct; they're the best thing about Beast

I also like the idea of a character that turns into a big monster, but Beast did a bad job of it.

Oh sorry I forgot about them
Every other covenant >>>>> Belial's Brood

...

The book explicitly says that it's not taking supernatural bullshit into account, so don't even try that. And you don't have to use that power.
But me, personally? I think smashing a big fucking axe on someone is awesome. I actually think it should *add* Durability, instead of use that instead.
The point is that you're a fucking berserker and you're beating someone so hard it bends the metal to the point of uselessness.

Neat. How are they doing their powers or getting to know how Disciplines or the Vampire template work? You might want to have them know a little bit of the system, though. When I first sprang a condition on a player who's never really played RPGs, she thought it meant her character was fucked up.

Does anyone have a PDF of the 2e core / any splat rules, except it's JUST the crunchy bits, the mechanical rules? Like "x check is done by y + z attributes" "forcing doors requires b successes over c days."

That kind of stuff.

You'd have to make one, there is no official 'no fluff just mechanics' version.

You mean a cheatsheet?
I have one for Werewolf, that's about it.

well they have experience with Dnd, so not totally new to RPGs
as for template and powers, mostly trial and error, they fell asleep hurt and woke up healed and hungry. they've also seen other vampires do things and tried to copy them. One of them got dominated and couldn't talk all night, but has sense figured out how to use the first level of dominate on people.

projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/kurieg/bellum-maga/#1
Would buy.

I got maybe half a page through and had to stop. I thought my writing was bad but I'm Shakespeare reincarnated compared to this..

I remember reading that reciew once. Aren't the supposedly evil patriarchs just taking their turn at ruling mankind after the witches did the same?

Yup! That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Thx user

Yeah. I've introduced two friends to rpg's via WoD. One of them was very sceptic at first.

It truly was my best chroonicle ever. I think both ran 9 sessions. I never got them together though, due to story reasons.

Best thing was: I started them out as mortals, with plans towards embracing them. Here's the thing though: they reactted very appropriate IC. As in: they their charcters thougght (both of them, separately): fuck this shit. They consistently ran away from/fought their prospective sires. And they were succesful as fuck.

Eventueally I got one of them, he got bit by a hollow Mekhet. The other guy burned the Daeva chasing him to a crisp, when he ffound out where her trailer was parked for the day.

It was fucking awesome. They outsmarted me on so many occasionns

What is gonzo?

>So I'm making plans for running a V:tM game, and I want to make some clarifications about True Faith. Firstly, I want to make it clear that Faith scores for mortals are not dependent on their Humanity; True Faith will reasonably often accompany vile deeds (the Society of Leopold is a major enemy here, after all). Only vampires need Humanity 9 to use it, because it represents how tightly one's Beast is controlled; True Faith is anathema to the Beast, which is why it harms vampires.
> As a corollary to this, there are also certain Paths of Enlightenment that will give access to True Faith with a rating of 9 or 10. The ones that use both Conviction and Instinct are all too selfish or too involved with embracing vampirism itself for Faith to manifest, but ones that use Conscience, Self-Control or both just use alternative ethical codes that Faith can find itself in; I don't think anyone's imagination would be taxed by a vampire on the Path of Blood, Paradox or Sutekh wielding True Faith. How does this sound?

Sounds good, but I'd say that the paths that make use of Conscience are far more likely to gain "access" to True Faith than ones that merely make use of Self-Control, since conscience and True Faith are closely linked if you ask me. If someone believes that there is no right or wrong (and more importantly, that there are no right or wrong actions for them to take), I find it harder to believe that they'd have the necessary faith to acquire *True* Faith.

So, I'd personally say that the following paths would have the *easiest* time of acquiring and using True Faith, though they obviously wouldn't be the only ones:

Path of Humanity
Path of Harmony
Path of Honorable Accord
Path of Redemption
Path of Ecstasy
Path of Penitence
Path of Tears
Path of Chivalry
Sharia El-Sama

A bit unrelated but I am now in a campaign of Ars Magicka and Mark Rein-Hagen is one of the players.
Played first session last sunday, hope that he will run Vampire for us one day.

>Bowmanship
Doesn't that allow even burst shooting?

Agreed.

Sounds cool. For freshly embraced characters this should work well. How do they manage not to solve everything DnD style (killing)?

>The other guy burned the Daeva chasing him to a crisp, when he ffound out where her trailer was parked for the day.
She deserved that for living in a trailer. What self-respecting vampire would do that?

>She deserved that for living in a trailer. What self-respecting vampire would do that?
>Not being aware of the lord of paradise lake
Granted, he's one of the Ven. But that shouldn't detract from the point made, far from it.

But yeah, the thing was that the vampires (I as an ST) consistenly and sincerely underestimated the danger of a determined mortal.

Are nazi-vampires a thing in cofd?

I can certainly see a fair few of them existing.
They'll likely have spent a reasonably great period of the intervening 71+ years in Topor.

In my game they are. Carthian fascists, equating vampires with the ubermensch.

It's a term for when games get wild and wacky with their themes and events. A good video game example is putting Fallout: New Vegas on Wild Wasteland mode.

Makes sense. I, personally, though, would say that the Path of Sutekh probably should use Conscience, since Theophidians clearly do believe in right (liberation and enlightenment) and wrong (the Aeons and spiritual slavery). Of course, I prefer to make a few tweaks to the Path anyway to make it more interesting and to add internal consistency. The main one I make is replacing the sin "Failing to take advantage of another's weakness" with "purposeless killing of another" (because death robs the chance for another to achieve enlightenment), in part because I think it's vastly too broad a sin to sit at Level 2.

Hold on, let me try.

Cause a stir among mortals with your cosmic powers and live to face the consequences.
Shape and lead your Cults across the ages like Dungeon Keeper.
Bring your order to the world through bronze age justice and worship of your dread gods.

That sounds really fun. How did their would-be sires think of them at the end?

Yeah. There is the example of one rather major Ordo Dracul bloodline who threw themselves along the Nazis. They liked the eugenics part.
There are also werewolves (Ivory Claws AND Predator Kings), and Mages (Seers and the Jnanamukti faction of the Mysterium).

Well, the Daeva was pretty dead. As I said. She was pretty determined to get him embraced, though. Right up untill the end. He had that fighter's mentality that would've made a great Lost Boy out of the guy.

The Mekhet was a scared and lost nomadic neonate. She tried to embrace the PC because she hoped he could help her make sense of the land she found herself in (She arrived on a ship, not wholly voluntarily, smugglers shenanigans). In the end she got him. But was a bit disappointed that he chose not to be a very big help. He thought he had other stuff to do and he was kind of mad at her. She, on the other hand, was loathe to bring him to final death. As her willpower was alreadyr unning quite low.

The changleing series idea of a power structire that relies on constant exchange of power is pretty interesting. Makes for an easy way to have power struggles without the simple solution of "taking over the big organization", since all the courts are required to keep the defense of the area strong.

Why do you hate Changeling?

.How do they manage not to solve everything DnD style

Well right now most npc's are stronger then them, so killing hasn't been much of an option

I don't understand how you can have Carthian fascists. Their entire philosophy is based on equality and anarchist thought during the French Revolution, and their magic powers are democratic. Fascism is a system with inherent heirarchies and the Carthians are against heirarchies. That would be like having Invictus--the group all about heirarchy and strict order--with an Anarcho-Syndicalist philosophy where the only government is ad-hoc and no man--or vamp--is another's master.

Like, if you want bad guy Carthians, it's not even hard. You don't have to ignore all the themes of Carthians, just focus on them. Democracy is kind of a shit show, and requires you to either convince, cajole, or cow approval, or you act on the united will of the people, which could just be based on antagonism more than anything else. There's also the way that similar but slightly different leftist movements will fight over minor quibbles, something the Carthians already have as one of their traits. Hell, Veeky Forums would be better as Carthian fodder than Nazis. Sure, there's not much difference sometimes, but instead of direct admitted fascism, you get things like shouting people into silence in the name of "free speech". I've seen plenty of times that Liberals have attacked people to the left of them, because pronouns/safe spaces/trigger warnings/criticism of video games are badwrongevil and must be stopped before ~censorship~ comes and we're all put into the Tumblr approved deathcamps, the reality of the situation be damned.

Of course, that kind of antagonist really only works if you're also a Carthian. Most internet personalities that spend their time railing on the evils of straw feminism don't tend to do much attacking of the people actually in power, even if they don't identify with them. But I'm sure you can find a different thing for them to kill over.

It's a lot more reasonable than the Revolutionaries to be dressed in Hugo Boss. Unless you divorced Nazism from Hitler, maybe.

Nahh. The key is that they believe in equality amongst vamps. Fascism can be democratic, Hitler rose to power because of it. Thing is that there is a very definition of what constitutes an individual with the rights to vote. It's about the definition of what is an equal. Also. Ubermensch. Hellloooo

Also: believing in equality =|= not believing in hierarchies. Even those French Revolutionaries had sergeants and corporals and what not. kbai

*a very narrow definition of what is an equal

>Ubermensch

Übermensch

>I don't understand how you can have Carthian fascists
The book explicitly explains that Carthians just have to adhere to a Human government and be extremely political. Why not have the Vampire 4th Reich. Hell you could argue that Vamparism is just a new type of human. A better human and to survive they have to feed on the Kine which deserve to be rounded up in Concentration camps.

Are there any "old" vampires in the carthian movement?

JaTavious Kendricks

He was born in 2008 and send back in time

What edition do you play? I'm curious if MRH has kept up with/approves of the way Ars has developed since he left it.

Fascism was born out of stapling right-wing nationalism and authoritarianism to Syndicalist thought, so it's honestly not that hard to see some Carthians eventually recreate Fascism from first principles, especially since their deal is that there isn't a form of government they won't end up trying if it means they can break free from the usual heirarchies, usually meaning Invictus heirarchies.

I'm sure some original Carthians who were neonates during the French and American revolutions are still around.

You should read the Fascist Manifesto of 1919

>I don't understand how you can have Carthian fascists

>TFW you forget people often are complete hypocrites, power corrupts, and Carthians view humans as the means of production, not the proletariat.

>Carthians view humans as the means of production, not the proletariat.
Actually the quote was
>There’s a difference between vampire revolutionaries who see humans as the proletariat, and vampire revolutionaries who see humans as the means of production. –Greg Stolze
So there are some who see the humans as the proles. But you're missing my point. Even if you ignore the humans (as you should, you blood sucking leech) fascism is all about having strict leadership. One of the core concepts of fascism is that democracy is obselete. It's all about having a strong singular dictator and a country that follows the will of the ruler.

Carthianism *is* all about equality among vampires. I've pointed this out before, but political anarchism is *not* against all form of authority, it's against authority that can't justify itself. Sergeants and corporals in a time of revolution can justify itself.

I'm not even arguing against "Vampires are better than humans". I'm arguing about specifically a fascist ideology for Carthians. There's more to Hitler's National Socialism than "Germans are best".

It's not even about hypocrisy, either. Although, I suppose it's likely for Carthians to *be* Fascist but not *identify* as fascist, which is more what I was getting at in my post.

If only the ideology didn't move from progressive to totalitarian. Or are you implying Carthians could do the same? I mean, sure, I said that or at least tried to, but I feel like it's more likely that they'd go the route of Tumblr or Anonymous and devolve into infighting and hunting shadows, lashing out at perceived threats. Or if they got into power, something more like Stalinism (duh)

>Or if they got into power, something more like Stalinism (duh)
As opposed to identifying with Nazis, I mean. Carthians by and large are practically emblazoned with the hammer and sickle, and wear red stars.
It's just super weird for them to be identifying with the poster children for fascism and right wing totalitarianism and being against equality.

Then again I suppose these are immortal parasites we're talking about, so I hadn't considered Carthians who are old enough to have been part of Naziism before it became a universal symbol. In the 30s, it's not like people were calling their politicians Nazis as a generic pejorative. Though it would still be weird for people with LITERAL DEMOCRACY MAGIC to be against democracy, which Nazism was.

I'm just saying, though, that even if you want Carthian bad guys, there are better ways to play to their strengths and themes.

We understand your point. It is still not difficult or impossible to imagine an openly Fascist Carthian wing, especially during the heyday of the early 20th century. Democracy is not the only form of system Carthians would want to consider, since out of all the Covenants, they are the most likely to change from Domain to Domain in terms of their core ideals.

Carthian Law can easily be changed into a form that expresses The Will to Vampiric Power or whatever nonsense this theoretical wing would develop. If it is truly powered by people agreeing on things, then it can easily shift its form to fit the politics of the masses, especially if it's actually some kind of strange blood magic the Carthians have stumbled upon.

The Carthians get their power from Democracy. If there's no Democracy, there's no Carthian Law.
It doesn't make sense that they'd be Fascist because their ideals are antifascist. Saying they might consider fascism simply because they're the most different between Domains doesn't give a reason for them to try fascism.

And it's not that they'll try any mortal political philosophy.
>The big picture: The Carthian Movement uses the ideologies of the living to bring democracy to the dead. Anyone who disagrees with that gets their haven firebombed
They want vampire equality. They're going to look to mortal philosophies that at the very least pay lip service to equality and democracy.

>If there's no Democracy, there's no Carthian Law

While the name might have to be changed, the power itself would probably still work, given that Carthian Law seems to work universally for the Covenant.

>They want vampire equality.

Given the nature of the vampire, it is not difficult to present an idea of vampire equality that is equivalent with Fascism. "We are all equal in our struggle against subversive forces" is just as good a rally for equality as any.

Though you're right after all, they wouldn't embrace just any philosophy. They certainly would avoid feudalism, considering that that's the Invictus's schtick.

Hitler payed lipservice. Look, I get your point with fascism being a strong man ideology. But the strongman usually legitimizes himself through some appeal to the will of a people. That suffices in my book, for a Carthian ideology