What's a good system to simulate intense shooting experiences?

Yup, it is. Which led to the loss of one of my cyberarms -- luckily, it was just the Grapple arm -- and the utter destruction of a target once. Razorboi, then Red Sam, then arm, then wall. Basically staggered out of a pool of redcurrent jam on that one.

OP here.

Are you saying your character would literally grapple someone and then hold a live grenade as a viable tactic?

Is this a regular Shadowrun thing or is your character a broken min-maxed special case

I mean, it's a bit wasteful, you could be just a troll adept and throw the granade so hard it goes through walls. Then you can pick it back up and throw it again!

It can be even used as an improvised explosive if you pull the pin.

4e here

Its definetly a min maxed special case.

But remember that it can make some sense, if you have a few layers of subdermal armour, kevlar weaved into your skin etc etc etc. ontop of actual body armour.

Its feasable, but this guy has 29 armour...which is fucking ludicrusly high

Two armor per limb, 3 Body, and an armored dress suit with an armored dress greatcoat.

So 4e SR is more lethal than 5e?

Your three options are Ops And Tactics, Ballad of the Laser Whales (despite the name), and GURPS. Which one you prefer depends on your tolerance to d20 Modern, unrivaled autism, and GURPS respectively. Personally, I prefer Ballad but I know a lot of people swear by Ops and Tactics.

>Gun autism
I weep tears of joy. Thanks yall. It's nice to see that everyone doesn't hate OaTs.

To be fair it's a long shot from D20 modern at this point.

Especially the combat.

Also I'm still working on it, i've been writing a campaign setting for Ops and I'll release it in a few months.

>I weep tears of joy. Thanks yall. It's nice to see that everyone doesn't hate OaTs.

Oh, believe me, I hate it. I just acknowledge that it is probably what OP is looking for.

Oh, sweet, the author posted in my thread!

So will your system offer me F.E.A.R. levels of nerve racking shootouts? I'm downloading the 6E books now!

Twilight 2000.
I have never dreaded the enemies initiative more than playing fucking Twilight.

I dont know, never played 5th.

I can say tho that in 4th gunplay can be incredibly lethal, even with lower-end gear.

The best defence is not getting shot, good defence prevents you from becoming a red smear.

His character could reasonably be expected to stand up to 3-4 turns of a random idiot with an assault rifle shooting at him if he stood still in the open.

thats about 20 seconds, halve that if you have any fancy shit

...

Would OATS be good for running a clone commando centric game?

As someone running a Stormtrooper centric game, I don't know why you wouldn't just use Age of Rebellion with a paintjob.

O&T is without a doubt the best autistic /k/ommand game our there, but that doesn't really seem to be what you would be looking for in a game about space commandos with laser guns.

I'd use their scifi stuff for more hard-ish scifi soldiers, even something like Starship Troopers. But I dunno that I'd use it for clone troopers.

You know I always forgot about age of rebellion

Ain't no biggy. Been wanting to run a Bad Batch clone game with it, but I'll settle for ferreting out seditious mongrels.

Seriously, GURPS. Get the basic set, high tech and tactical shooting. It's nerve-frayingly deadly, planning works and you can customize anything.

If you like DH, try out Halo Mythic

>Halo Mythic

Huh, I remember that from a while ago. How playable is the latest build?

How about Phoenix Command?

Pro: The entire game is built around shooting people with guns. There's pages upon pages of gun stats. Combat is brutal and deadly. It's kinda sorta public domain?

Con: Rules are poorly laid out and organized. Tactical options are emergent require some dedication by the GM to lay out cover and microterrain features. Not updated since 1991. Makes GURPS combat look quick.

kek
I luv da chans

Very. They're at the point where they're trying out fun expansions in other eras of history that are all compatible with their Halo stuff.

They have a Discord channel too. The community is fine enough, and you can offer suggestions and get more detailed answers on it.

The links and whatnot transferred over to Reddit, but I think that was mostly for the economy of having a sub instead of archiving a bunch of different threads. Vorked remembers that he started here, and every now and again posts about it here to try and keep Veeky Forums in the loop.

Is anyone running an Ops and Tactics game?

Actually, yeah.

Hints: Don't get shot. If you do get shot, wear armor.

Armor is indeed a life saver in Ops.

But why though.

This. Even though we do have "Lightsabers" and Plasma and laser guns, but clone troopers is probably a little bit out of it's wheelhouse.

>How about Phoenix Command?

How about no.

I'm Writing, otherwise I would.

I know there are some on discord, but you'd really have to ask around.,

>Gurps

I got no problem with gurps, not my cup of tea. If you don't like Ops and Tactics, you probably will like gurps.

Even if they did get some stuff wrong about guns, I understand why it's wrong(Playability, primarily)

Why put so much work into the gun autism and then next to none for actual realistic injuries, bleeding and etc.? I get that your game is a highly modified D20 modern, but it seems counterintuitive to have such detailed/extensive weapons tables and such without having those differentiations actually matter realistically in play as you would expect them to. Like, the weapons themselves are nice but the resolution mechanisms of the rest of your system (and stuff like levels and etc.) kinda makes the differences and nuances of the guns fall flat and feel like meaningless detail in actual practice.

>Feng Shui
>while the other handles action-movie shoot-outs flawlessly.

>Why put so much work into the gun autism and then next to none for actual realistic injuries, bleeding and etc.?

Realistic injuries slow down and complicate the game. I know this becasue there is a full ruleset on realistic injuries we playtested and it slowed down the game to such a crawl and caused a death spiral it wasn't worth using at all, and made the game unfun.

Bleeding is in the game. See below.

When a character takes more than 3 points of Slashing, Piercing,
Bludgeoning, or Ballistic damage to CHP or takes more than 6
points of Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeoning, or Ballistic damage to
XHP and they are not wearing armor to stop the type of damage,
they are now bleeding. When a character is bleeding, they lose
HP at the rate of 1d3 per 3 points for Core, or 1d3 per 6 points
of applicable damage taken per round. This damage stacks for
every wound.

Example: A character already has 1d3 bleed damage and
takes another 5 damage, they now bleed 2d3 per round.

Bleed damage is accounted for after the player has finished
their turn. In order to stop bleeding, they must receive first aid
(Treat Injury check [TN10]). This is a temporary fix and lasts for
5d4 minutes. In order to fully stop bleeding, a character must
undergo Surgery (Treat Injury check [TN25]). A character also
takes a −1 penalty to attack for each bleed damage die they have.

>Like, the weapons themselves are nice but the resolution mechanisms of the rest of your system (and stuff like levels and etc.) kinda makes the differences and nuances of the guns fall flat and feel like meaningless detail in actual practice.

People always complain about levels. I've never been able to understand why outside of "Well that's how we used to do it". I've been looking hard at a real true reason why levels is inherently inferior, but I can't find it. If you know of it, tell me.

>Meaningless detail

That's the exact reason I wrote SquATS(Attached), and why there are generic gun rules.

Furthermore, levels do not make the difference in Ops and tactics. I've run playtest with a level 2 absolutely destroying a level 7 character. The most significant difference between characters is what they can do; the feats. It is possible(though not as easy) for a level 1 to utterly murder a level 10, if the level 1 is properly equipped, and uses the right strategy.

>such without having those differentiations actually matter realistically in play as you would expect them to.

Two points to this.

1. I just wanted to have a game with a bunch of real guns that more or less realistically represented real firearms, and not generic firearms. This is 100% me. In this pursuit(And my subsequent purchasing of large amounts of firearms for testing), I've come to a point that the particular firearm only matters in the essence of caliber(Which dictates damage), barrel length and size(Which dictactes effective range and concealablity, for handguns), and the action of the firearm.

2. How would you expect them to? I'm serious about this question, how would you expect them to matter exactly?

To addres the problem of realistic injuries, it got cut down massive. Below is extremity damage, which is also in the game.

If a character is hit anywhere during a called shot attack with a Piercing, Bludgeoning, Slashing, Plasma, or Ballistic weapon and that weapon does more than 3 points of damage to that extremity, then the character takes extremity damage. A character can both bleed and take extremity damage.

• If the character is hit in the arm they take a −6 penalty to any skill or ability check using that arm.

• If the character is hit in the hand they take a −12 penalty to any skill or ability check using that hand and cannot use weapons in that hand.

• If the character is hit in the leg the CP cost to move is doubled.

– If both legs are hit they drop prone, can only spend enough CP to move 5' every round, and cannot pick themselves up.

• If the character is hit in the foot the CP cost to move is tripled.

– If both feet are hit they drop prone, can only spend enough CP to move 5' every round, and cannot pick themselves up.

• If a character is hit in the head the attack is automatically considered to be a critical strike and they are stunned for 1d3 rounds.

These penalties and damage stay until the character undergoes successful surgery and receives at least two weeks of long term care.

>resolution mechanisms of the rest of your system

I missed this.

What do you mean the resolution mechanics? Roll 3d6 +/- Modifier, check against a static score?

There is an actual Star Wars TTRPG out there user.

>Realistic injuries slow down and complicate the game. I know this becasue there is a full ruleset on realistic injuries we playtested and it slowed down the game to such a crawl and caused a death spiral it wasn't worth using at all, and made the game unfun.
Okay, but... isn't that also part of creating a 'realistic' tactical operations/shooting RPG? Having injury rules that stem appropriately from the uber realistic firearms that lend plausibility to the play concept? And a death spiral seems fairly in-genre to me personally.

>bleeding
Yeah I know you have them in general, I specified "realistic" injuries, bleeding, etc.

>levels
That is one example of several artifacts I would point to in your homebrew, and I would say that they specifically aren't so much of a problem in and of themselves aside from creating a kind of cognitive dissonance between what are supposed to be sim-based firearms rules but again, in practice, don't actually end up being appreciably simulationist at all in actual play and clash ideologically with things like "levels" and ridiculously abstracted called shots rules, etc. To be fair I've only played 3 sessions of your game so I'm fully willing to admit anecdotal personal bias here.

>Squats
This is more in line with what I would expect given the rest of the system, thanks.

Anyway, thanks for explaining some of your reasoning, sorry to say I guess I'm just not much of a fan of Ops and Tactics but you've put in a lot of nice work and research, so more power to you and your fans.

>Okay, but... isn't that also part of creating a 'realistic' tactical operations/shooting RPG?

The goal wasn't to make a realistic Tactical operations RPG. It was to make a Tactical RPG that was relatively fast, playable, and more or less was as realistic as I could get while maintaining the previous two.

> And a death spiral seems fairly in-genre to me personally.

That shit ain't fun. It's frustrating. That's what the data told me.

>That is one example of several artifacts I would point to in your homebrew, and I would say that they specifically aren't so much of a problem in and of themselves aside from creating a kind of cognitive dissonance between what are supposed to be sim-based firearms rules but again, in practice, don't actually end up being appreciably simulationist at all in actual play and clash ideologically with things like "levels" and ridiculously abstracted called shots rules, etc. To be fair I've only played 3 sessions of your game so I'm fully willing to admit anecdotal personal bias here.

See Previous notion.

>Anyway, thanks for explaining some of your reasoning, sorry to say I guess I'm just not much of a fan of Ops and Tactics but you've put in a lot of nice work and research, so more power to you and your fans.

It's cool. I love when people tell me what they don't like. I've fixed COUNTLESS things because of that.

>This is more in line with what I would expect given the rest of the system, thanks.

Squats is basically a cut down version of Oats, using only d6s, with one archetype, and no occupations. The game is pretty much identical otherwise.

Oh! And to have an RPG with a lot of guns.

Like a lot of them. I like choice. Choice is good. I hate generic guns.

>The goal wasn't to make a realistic Tactical operations RPG. It was to make a Tactical RPG that was relatively fast, playable, and more or less was as realistic as I could get while maintaining the previous two.
This makes much more sense having played it. I guess I went in with the wrong expectations. Still probably won't make a return to it, but that's more based on personal system style/philosophy preference than calling your system 'bad'. Hope that's not how any of my previous comments came off, I guess it's just a design philosphy that hits a niche that doesn't really appeal to me personally.

>death spiral not fun
Given your previous design goal statement that makes more sense now.

100% agreed, I hate generic guns and appreciate the detail and "sperginess"/ /k/ autism. It's what got me to at least try your game in the first place. As I said you have done a lot of great research, which I may lean on incidentally while running things in other systems.

>Hope that's not how any of my previous comments came off, I guess it's just a design philosphy that hits a niche that doesn't really appeal to me personally.

Not at all! I can't stand D&D(Or really any D20 system at this point), so I understand where you're coming from.

Also, try Twilight 2000 and 2013. It may hit your niche better.

>As I said you have done a lot of great research, which I may lean on incidentally while running things in other systems.

Feel free. That's what it's there for.

I was going to, but then it got put on hold for a long time because a member of the group went off to the navy. Now I'm considering using GURPS instead. Anyone want to convince me otherwise?

GURPS is very good at this type of thing, particularly with the benefits of High-Tech and Tactical Shooting.

GURPS is also not nearly as scary as people make it sound.

>GURPS is also not nearly as scary as people make it sound.

Trueish.

My issue with gurps is that it relies on you knowing the system. Lots of options, lots of things you can do.

I can already into GURPS so that part is no biggie

I love how in GURPS you can murder the shit out of people spraying ammo wildly at 50 yards by taking cover and making calm, aimed shots.

>29 armour...which is fucking ludicrusly high

29 is high for fresh out of chargen, but if you're a troll or get the medium-high end stuff it's a lot more plausible.

For example, my sammy is going to have armor 24 and soak pool of 27 once he gets his hands on full-body armor (18 for the full-body armor set, 6 for cyberarms, 3 for body). If I was willing to put in higher stats or start an OOC arms race with the busted-strong Run & Gun armors (sleeping tiger, executive suite, milspec), the soak pool could absolutely hit 30 or higher.

I think it's also important to note that just about anything giving you such a high armor is going to be very conspicuous. Meaning that it won't always be a good idea to wear it. You might not want to stroll through the barrens in your 10k armored business suit for example. Bring the right tool for the job, and all that.

If you liked Dark Heresy's combat, you'd love Delta Green. Their combat systems are very similar, only Delta Green is like 10x more lethal because your character has no negative HP, and dies at 0.

However, it's not anywhere near as in-depth as OaTs, and it shouldn't generally be played like an operator fantasy as it's more about investigation and horror (and I suggest you emphasize on investigation because the lore is very well written and creeping out your players is fun). If you really, REALLY need your operating fill, you can just make your players high speed specops, plop them innawarzone, and throw in some Mythos creatures every once in a while so Delta Green has a reason to keep them there.

>My issue with gurps is that it relies on you knowing the system. Lots of options, lots of things you can do.

To a degree - though I'd say that most systems rely on you knowing the system.

GURPS handles a much wider range than most systems - so if you treat like DnD, where all the splatbooks are basically just embellishments on a theme, then it's definitely going to be a little overwhelming.

Which is why typical suggestions are "Gear Book, Genre Book, Appropriate Niche Book". In this case: "High Tech, Action, Tactical Shooting."

Delta Green's biggest contribution is now its new Kill Damage stat, where certain weapons have a chance to just kill you outright. Almost all of those weapons do enough damage (and players are fragile) to possibly outright kill you, but the chance to not even get to roll for it or have your armour matter scares people.

A full-auto burst from a rifle has a 10% chance of just instantly killing you if it hits, unless you are in cover. Whereas a near-hit from a Tomahawk missile has a 50% chance of instant kill, but that is just for show because it has so many damage dice you have to build an extremely tough character with good armour to possibly survive and even then you must roll the lowest possible damage.

Can we get a link to Ops and Tactics here, so I can see it first hand?

Might wanna wait for the Dev "SweetSoulBro" to post his latest build files, as I understand it he updates it frequently.

lmgtfy.com/?q=ops and tactics

You physically disgust me.

>But why though.

Because any sort of autism (be it guns, survival or monetary type shit) is boring and pointless to me, and games perpetrating that sort of simulationist garbage, instead of finally letting it die out and give way to superior designs are fucking cancer.

In my opinion, of course :^)

>projecting the dark lords of the Forge this hard

It's free mate

Also if by some chance you're reading this thread SSB, can you please post previous editions of your work so we can see how the game has progressed through the years?

What version of Delta Green should I get? Is there a stand-alone system, or do I need to get CoC too?

Thanks for all the info, I'm definitely checking the system out. I might put together a one shot using Squats this weekend to try it out with the group and see how they like it.

So all of those big game-breaking combos can be put in check by a GM using common sense logic, right? Or is this kind of crazy stuff encouraged by the game?

>So all of those big game-breaking combos can be put in check by a GM using common sense logic, right?

It's SR. You don't play SR if you want common sense, I think.

>What version of Delta Green should I get?
There's two versions: The original that came out in '94 that was a supplement for CoC, and the new one, which consists of Need to Know and the Agent's Handbook as of now. The old one and it's supplements have some really good lore stuff in them but you need to have an old version of CoC to play them. Good luck finding any of those in print. The new one, known as Delta Green: The Roleplaying Game, can be played with just the Agent's Handbook. The only drawback to the new one is that the full book of the actual RPG hasn't come out yet, and the Agent's Handbook only contains the game's mechanics, not lore or scenarios or enemies or anything like that.

Personally, I'd just get the new ones and pirate the old books for lore and scenarios. I also preordered the full book on their Kickstarter.

I'm running a modern military campaign set in Afghanistan with slightly modified Runequest/Mythras ruleset. Biggest changes to the rules concern the combat round turn cycles, burst- and automatic fire and some little tweaking of the special effect rules, but most of it is just rounding off some gameplay slowing side effects. For example automatic fire rules I borrowed a little from Dark Heresy and made it fit this system.

Even though the original ruleset is kinda slow to play, a little bit of tweaking of rules has made our game flow really smoothly.

Why would you use a system made specifically for detailed medieval combat and fantasy for a modern military adventure?

>How about no.

It fulfils almost every criteria the OP gives to the utmost degree. That doesn't mean it's what they actually want, but it's a superb candidate.

>So all of those big game-breaking combos can be put in check by a GM using common sense logic, right? Or is this kind of crazy stuff encouraged by the game?

A soak pool in the high 20s is not a "game-breaking combo". It just means that it's not easy for gangers and mall-cops to kill the character with small firearms. Runners are supposed to chew through those guys like bubblegum anyway. The serious threats involve being cut off and boxed-in by comprehensive HTR measures, or being backstabbed by a client. And of course, not all missions are conducive to wearing enough armor to shrug off a grenade.

There's also the fact that a soak pool is just one defense out of many. It doesn't do jack diddly for toxins, magic, matrix-fuckery, tracker-bullets, being screwed by your johnson, or having any number of bad things happen to your character. If the GM is stumped by a PC with a 27 soak pool, that is a sign that he is relying far too heavily on just one small aspect of the game.

Also, it's a point that many miss about the philosophy of the game, but combat is just one part of SR, and there are so many other crucial factors in play. It's not D&D where violence is consequence-free and the only thing that matters. A runner has to keep a lot of balls in the air, including things like hiding his identity and armory from authorities, gathering information, maintaining relationships with contacts, remain hidden as long as needed for the mission, minimizing collateral damage, fleeing mission areas before shit hits the fan, and enjoying a life when he's not running. If he can't maintain that delicate balancing act, he's just as screwed as the guy who takes a bullet while wearing nothing but a t-shirt and jeans. Being able to survive gunshots is certainly important, but it doesn't take you very far on its own.

It has decent and free supplement rules for gunfights and guns. Also it's the system I'm most familiar with, so there's that. Also because my players too like system and its lethality because it forces them to play smart.

Cyberpunk 2020

>So all of those big game-breaking combos can be put in check by a GM using common sense logic, right? Or is this kind of crazy stuff encouraged by the game?
You're talking about a game in it is perfectly acceptable to have one of your team-mates being an Indian man with four arms dual-wielding heavy machine guns while your Face has a dozen hair extension drones which are each independently able toss out 8 dice to shoot with their integrated light pistol, while the troll throws bricks through walls and people, while your Adept is a whiskey-swigging cowboy who says yippe-kiyay every two sentences while having a conversation with a Thunderbird.

You don't play Shadowrun for common sense. You -can- if you desire, but even if you wanna play black trenchcoat, the rulebooks contains all of the jank and wut for playing pink mohawk.

Hell, you use my razorboi as an example, our run last night got hit with a major hang-up and it went from a relatively professional tactical B&E to our infiltrator tossing out three high-explosive grenades in tight, enclosed quarters, my character using a reinforced steel door as a ballistic shield and pulping a security guard into bone shards and meat paste, and then us making our escape from the rooftop as they ziplined down my grapple arm's cable before I bugged out.

Dude, congratulations on your combat mechanics, I'm working on my own system as well and I'm finding this extremely helpful.

Only one thing to add to the autism, I believe movement modifier to defense could be inversely scaled with the range penalty, after all, the farther you are from the target the more it has to move in order to evade your line of sight/fire. And it makes movement more effective against people with Telescopic Sight, what is indeed a thing.

C'mon, we practically got a team waiting right here!

I'd run it myself if i wasnt busy.

Also i'm skeptical about GURPS. I'd like to play the O&T Core.

Holy fuck you are a shitty person and your opinions are equally shit.

>posting in autism thread how he dislikes autism
>should just die so other, better games can rise up
Why don't you make one you faggit.