In a magic system where every kind of spell fits under one of the 4 classical elements...

In a magic system where every kind of spell fits under one of the 4 classical elements, where would you place necromancy?

Earth, for its connotations with the cold and material, the underworld, burial, etc.

I'd say earth magic. It's natural for the dead to return to the earth. Using magic to keep them here or pull them up from the dirt and dust sounds to me like earth magic. I could see fire magic though, if you consider the soul a type of symbolic flame such that manipulating it through necromancy counts as fire magic.

Air because formless spirits belong there.

Yes, Earth seems the most logical to me for these reasons. Assuming that the culture of the setting has most people be buried in the ground earth also seems reasonable. Other forms of burial (or in-setting lore surrounding death) might mean you choose fire (cremation?) or another element.

Air, for its connotations with the immaterial and distant, the afterlife, sky burials, etc.

Depends on whether you're raising zombies or summoning shades from the underworld to talk to. Zombies I'd say would be earth, shades air.

It could be under any of them, depending on the sort of undead you're making. There are myths of undead associated with all four of the elements. Necromancy would be some sort of dark perversion of "buffing" elemental magic, infusing a dead thing with the energy of the element until it takes on a crude mockery of life.

Depends on the culture, it can be water or earth. In some cultures earth could be very well associated with the underworld, the deep, etc.

In others like the aymaras earth would be more associated with the ground and soil we tread, which makes lakes one of the main links with deep underworld, like a portal So it would be water.

Seconding on undead being water-related. Water is life-giving and necromancy is perversion of that.

I could see an argument for water, as well. Being one of the most logical places for something like healing magic due to water's heavy connotation with life, it could be argued that the element associated with life could also be associated with unlife.

An argument could be made for any of them, really, depending on how you plan on fluffing it and what kind of necromancy you're talking about. Despite being made mostly of water, human bodies usually get classified as Earth-aligned, given how many origin stories have humans being made of dust or clay. Bringing those bodies back to life, therefore, would be tied to Earth. (It's also how Final Fantasy tends to do it, considering Lich from FFI and Scarmiglione in FFIV). Fire could work as a sort of "providing the spark of life" aspect, as could Air, depending on where you have lightning falling. Lastly, Water doesn't work terribly well as from a fluff perspective, since most undead lack the more watery parts of the body, but it could work as an extension of the fact that Water usually gets access to healing magics. (Which could also make a decent argument for Fire, come to think of it...) If you're referring more to ghosts and spirits, it would probably best be consigned to something like Aether, as they are inherently outside the "natural" world.

Either Earth, for the obvious "underworld" aspects, or have it come completely outside of the elemental aspects - much like how Japanese elementalism goes Earth/Air/Water/Fire/Void.

I like this

Necromancy is that which divides the elements, for the elements are divided by the spirit.

There is Earth Necromancy, which rules the crypts and the underworld; Water Necromancy, which controls what lies in the deepest parts of the ocean, and the souls of stranded ships; Air necromancy, which rules the Heavens; and Fire Necromancy, who controls the death of stars and, eventually, the heat death of the Universe.

You could take this a step further and relate each element to certain asects of Necromancy

Earth - the raising of corpses, such as zombies and skeletons

Air - Binding and summoning the souls of the dead

Water - Magic involved in corruption and curses

Fire - Offensive Necromantic spells, 'burning' the soul of your opponent.

Earth, if you ask me. People are dirt, they return to dirt when they die. They even get buried in it.

This. "Cthonic" is a thing.

Water is probably the most magical element of them all. There's barely any kind of magic out there which hasn't been associated at some point to some degree with water. Necromancy? Easily water. Healing? Water. Illusions? Water. Emotion control? Water. Shapeshifting? Water. Divination? Water. Weather control? Water. Just about everything that doesn't directly involve fireballs.

>Illusions
>Not fire for mirage
>Emotion control
>Not fire for the flames of anger or passion
>Weather control
>Not air

Seriously?

I'm not even making that shit up, I'm talking actual associations from mysticism and folklore and what not. Illusions for the reflections in the water, I guess (generally speaking, like the moon, water is all about being several things at once or being everchanging or what have you, it's kinda deceptive), emotion control for I guess the same association with the moon or changing phases. Weather because yeah, in many places it did seem like weather mainly consisted of what water was doing in the sky.

> Water
Blood Magic

Earth and fire for physical deadites.
Fire and air for solely non-physical.

Earth for remains, air for spectral, fire for (re)animation.

None of them, and that's why it's terrifying to contemplate. In a setting where magic nearly falls into one of four categories, that there is a powerful kind d of magic that explicitly "doesn't fit" would be astonishing to most.
That's why it's feared: because it doesn't fit
That's why it's shunned: because it's a power that's beyond the natural
And that's why you'll have cultural tropes around the hubris of necromancy: because it's magic that dares to tread in God's realm

Fire. Think about it - what is a corpse missing? It has bones filled with earth, flesh and blood filled with water, and lungs filled with air. What's gone? The fire - the spark of life. Rekindle that spark, and it walks once more.

Fire, because of the spark of the soul, the fanning of the embers of a lost life back into a fire.

Alternatively air, for the breath of the living.

The idea is generally that magic is, fundamentally, always about "change" and water is the element of change. A very similar argument could be made for air, however (although water retains a connection with divination and knowledge in general that I'm not entirely sure air does) and Promethean: The Created for example bases all its "magic" around fire on the logic that fire is the element of energy, therefore dynamism.

Only earth gets left behind on the magical philosophical race, being too static, though it's occasionally saved via its connection to the living world/nature.

I like Earth for Conjuration and Abjuration.

It doesn't fit because the idea of something transcendental like magic being limited to four physical elements is bullshit.

Necromancy is the breaking of life magic's taboos. That's all there is to it.


t. Mexican warlock

The association between water and death is as old as (if not moreso) than human civilization. Throughout most of human history water was seen as mysterious and scary and the depths of any body of water essentially unreachable. Many cultures believed the land of the dead was underwater.

Same with water and life, though. A source of good water was the difference between survival and extinction. It's the ocean that's death, and the river that's life.

Fire needs to eat, it needs to breathe, and it replicates tirelessly. I'd say out of all the elements it resembles life the most, which you can loop back around to reanimating the dead.

Who said the same element can't be associated with both life and death? user's whole thesis was that water is the "most magical element".

If you associate every kind of magical creature with an element, where does that put ghosts?

That's basically the same question.

Depends on temperament of dead person you want to talk to. Earth magic for melancholic, water for phlegmatic, fire for choleric, air magic for sanguine.

I like this

Ghosts can be interpreted either as fire (ignis fatuus), water (ectoplasm), optical illusions (air) or dirt in your eyes (earth).

Spirit of Winter (Ice)
Spirit of Summer (Fire)
Spirit of Spring (Earth)
Spirit of Autumn (Wind)

Four different wraith, each with their own elemental affinity

Ghost, not spirit.

I agree that it's a cool idea, but I kinda really want the whole elemental deal to work out for an upcoming game and how I see it if I break it for one type of magic I might as well discard it. It's good, but it's not useful for my particular purpose.

A mix of everything if you have to limit yourself. Is a generic arcane energy present, too? If so then that.

Air to breathe life into the dead, lightning to shock them back to life if they have hearts still, galvanizing undead to action. Depending on what a soul is under your system, air could manipulate them or carry their voices so that you can speak directly to the dead.

Earth to raise corpses from the dirt, mend the dead bodies and restore minerals to the bones and strengthen them. The Earth decomposes dead things and takes their nutrients, so you can use this power to put them right back.

Fire to represent fervor and leadership to control the undead. Alternatively, use Fire to cremate bodies so that their soul is free and capturable so that you can direct it into a new vessel (a fire spirit, stone golem, etc.). You can also use the power of the dead's ashes or use fire in your sacrifices.

Water/Cold for the spreading of sickness and disease or to represent the cold bitterness of the undead. Also as other people have stated water magic is usually a healing element.

This.
Although I could see a sort of Frankensteinian use of Air/lighting.

Depends on the kind of necromancy.

Raising zombies and skeletons? That's associated with Earth- material things that are solid and physical.

Calling up ghosts and specters? Probably air. In ancient times "spirit" (as we know it today) and "breath" were the same word, differentiated by the context used.

Contacting and asking your long-dead grandpa where the fuck he put the key to the shed for fuck's sake? Probably water (since water has had a long association with communication (rivers being the fastest travel routes) and has also been used in fortunetelling for a long time.)

I feel like all but the most literal evocations of elemental energy could be represented by any of the four, and that non-explicitly elemental spells should be influenced by their element instead of restricted to one or another.

You could have different forms of necromancy based on several elements.

Air: Air = breath/soul. Air necromancy is worked by binding a soul to a dead body, either the soul of the deceased or another one the magus has been able to bind. The creations of air necromancy have souls and therefore have intelligence, personality and free will. However, the body is still dead and will decay over time, and its physical abilities are impaired proportionate to its state of decay, though it can still move as long as its muscles are intact enough. A soul can be bound to a body of any species, even a species less intelligent than the one it originally belonged to. A cadaver animated this way also has no sense of touch, smell or taste. If the magus is not also adept at fire magic, he may be able to only harness the airy half of the soul, so its will and emotions (including loyalty to him) will be deadened and its spiritual energies will be greatly diminished.

Water: Water = life. Water necromancy works on a physical and biological level. By infusing a dead body with water of life, a magus can make the body live again, restoring it to a state of health equal to its condition just before dying, or even superior if the magus uses an especially large quantity of aqua vitae or the aqua is especially potent. The body is alive, but it does not have a sou or intellect. It may still act on instincts appropriate to its species, but has no free will or memories, and is unable to tap into any form of spiritual or magical energy. The magus can manipulate the animated corpse by exercising the water of life contained within. If the water is removed from the body, the body will die.

Earth: Earth = matter. Earth necromancy works through simply manipulating the body of the dead directly. Inexperienced earth magi will be unable to do this without covering the body in soil to act as a conduit for their developing skills. Earth magic can be used to exhume buried bodies and to repair damage. An especially talented magus may be able to transmute earth (or other matter) into flesh to replace lost body parts or even augment the body by adding additional parts. There are legends of extremely powerful earth necromancers able to reconstruct bodies long since decayed to powder. Earth necromancy does not create any semblance of life in the affected body: none of the body's organs function independently of the magus's will (unless the body is infused with aqua vitae), and the body has no soul or intellect whatsoever (unless one is added by use of air and/or fire).

Fire: Fire = genius. There are two kinds of fire necromancy. The more common kind, known as the Spark of Life, involves channeling her spiritual energies and passions (as well as those of people around her if she is able) into a body, giving it a soul, but only for as long as the magus is able to transfer the requisite energies into it. This form of necromancy requires intense concentration and willpower to use for any considerable length of time. A body animated this way is spiritually alive, but physically dead as with air necromancy, kept alive with a makeshift soul. If the soul is purely or predominantly made of fire, the body's actions will be out of the magus's control and it will likely have little to no intellect, but it may have considerable magical abilities, perhaps even greater than the magus herself.

The second kind, the Spark of the Soul, is highly obscure and known only to the most advanced of fire magi. This school of necromancy involves the creation of an entirely new soul, a process that is extremely lengthy and taxing, and infusing it into a dead body, though it is possible to animate other objects in the same manner. Since the soul is entirely new, the magus has only as much control over it as a parent does over a child. Unlike the Spark of Life, the Spark of the Soul does not require sustained exertion to remain active. Very few magi capable of using the Spark of the Soul do not also have extensive knowledge of air magic, and many also are advanced in water magic to ensure that the new soul is not in agony as a result of being trapped in a barely functional decaying body.

Earth is the most probable option.

Fire: fill corpses with the essence of life and energy: fire.

Looks like you need to master all 4 magicks to become a master necromancer - a feat not possible for a mere mortal i assume.
Or maybe there is no such crude termin as necromancer - necromancy is just an another ability elemental magician can learn and master.
Anyway, i like it.

Thanks.

Only a master of all the elements could raise a dead body and have it pass for a normal living person, but for most necromancers that's probably not a high priority. I think that a system based on elements is more interesting if all the elements can do the same basic things, just to different degrees and in different ways.

I came up with this mini-system just now, based off of the ancient Greek conception of the body made of earth and water, and the soul made of air and fire. But I think that the elemental associations with necromancy depend a lot on cultural practices and afterlife mythology. If the souls of the dead are in a Hel/Hades-like cavern, earth might be more useful for retrieving them, but a more Christian-like mythos of a "fiery" Hell and "celestial" heaven might require fire to retrieve a damned soul and air to retrieve a saved one. Maybe cultures that bury their dead are more proficient in earth necromancy, while ones that practice cremation would see fire as the most natural element to use. There are a lot of ways this can be spun.

What monsters are associated with what element?

Water. It has ALWAYS had a Death symbolic - I mean, even before fantasy even existed.
Water is deep, slow, amorphous, dark, cold.
Water is the last resting place of many people.
Water is a point of passage to the underworld.
Water also has links with life, so it is only natural it has links with death.

Replace all instances of water with earth and you have yourself a deal.

Earth or wind. Earth for things already mentioned, and wind because of breathing life into the dead.
So depends on the flavor of necromancy in the setting.

I would have said fire before reading this thread.

In our own ancient times, when man literally divided elements into these four groups, fire is what they labeled energy. All animate things have energy, and to give life to something lifeless would be to give it energy (spark of life).

The creation or resurrection of life is only possible by combining all elements: water in bodily fluids, fire in the soul, air in the lungs, and the earth that is the clay bodies we're formed from. Necromancy is the result of mortal efforts to recreate this process without one or more of these parts being made properly. Soulless creatures, deformed abominations, Frankensteined horrors, and seemingly mummified undead are the results of these failed attempts at new creation, using slight shortcuts, or disproportionate application of each element. Nobody has yet succeeded in the effort to bring a man or animal back to life or create new proper life and the effort is considered a taboo, though several once great universities destroyed themselves in this ultimate quest for knowledge.

Id say somewhere between earth and fire. Earth for all the reasons people already said. Fire for its representation of human spirit, spark/flame of life, etc.

If the setting allows for in-betweens, I'd say Earth and Water to signify rot. If not, probably just a more evil form of Earth magic.

Water. You're messing with the flow and cycle of life (humans are 70% water and blablabla)