How much (in credits) does each of those guys cost for the republic?

>the most autistic pair of posts on Veeky Forums today

the price in the FFG book is listed as 120,000
the price in the wiki is 150,000, closer but still less

This calculation is incomplete: the Kaminoans must be paid. As the best of the best genetic engineers in the galaxy they would almost certainly charge a significant sum for their services.

A soldier, particularly a high-tech one like a Clone Trooper, also has far more kit than just their weapon and armour. If one considers the logistics involved in delivering them to a distant battlefield the cost quickly soars to astronomical numbers.

The Republic wouldn't pay more for a single soldier than they would for a high end fighter. Therefore, there must have been some fudging going on that resulted in that not being the case. Your calculations are wrong because there's something that you aren't taking into account.

But were forgetting the superior training clones got

Really the CIS had the better navy while the republic wrecked in ground warfare

It doesnt really matter since palpatine was playing both sides

It's almost as if the monetary cost of a clone is an irrelevant and pointless calculation that no armchair autist will be able to come up with given the myriad details that aren't known and the simply fact that could no more accurately price the cost of a box of Kraft Macaroni and Cheese than he could a clone.

either the clone is really good, or future inflation is really bad

Probably economy of scale. The clone orders are basically guaranteed to keep coming in for as long as the republic is still around,and after the initial batch, things can get streamlined quite a bit and the ongoing relationship between the Republic and the Kaminoans would bring the prices down. Controlled utility (Power and water) prices, tax breaks, preferred status for other bids, ect can add up pretty quickly to bring the direct cost down and defray it into the government budget.

What he's not taking into account is economies of scale.

I guarantee they aren't paying market price for equipment if they are buying in batches of 200,000. Ditto for the rest of the costs, there's probably an inherent discount for scale.

> better training
> implying that matters when the confederacy can field 90 B1's or 54 B2's or 7 Droidekas per clone

Clones were really good even the basic troopers were pretty amazing

The special forces clones is where everything gets even crazier

>not understanding how stupid B2 clankers were
>or that a B1 pops as soon as the control ship gets fried

You know what's ridiculous? The suggestion that they could fight a galactic war of any significance whatsoever with less than ten million troops.

In Rogue One, the ENTIRE REBEL FLEET is like 10 ships and 30 fighters.
Star Wars is fucked, and you should stop putting any more thought into it other then it being decent entertainment at the time.

Why did clones have that retarded half skirt

Why did you think the empire didn't reaaaaallly take them seriously?

What? No it's not, that's just that one admiral's fleet. The rebellion at that time is not very organized despite the council coming together. He literally took his own ships and left to go on that final mission on his own initiative. They mostly get wiped out and the rebels still have all of their shit for A New Hope to roll around.

I found the blue ARCs cooler than the leader ARC.

dual pistols is just too far for me

...You do realize that the Alliance pre-Battle of Yavin really was just a tiny little group of seditious politicians and freedom fighters with little to no real central organization or command? That the destruction of Alderaan and the Death Star legitimized the Alliance and led to their increased cohesion and unity, along with the full support of planets and other rebel groups?

This.

>not wanting to blast clankers like a Wild West cowboy
Shameful.

consider the quantity of skill per unit as well as non-quantifiable additional forces.

whats the equipping cost of a gungan warrior for example?

nah, his calculations are right. it's just that most of the time, when calculating the cost of a soldier, you do not have to count the cost of their growth to maturity, basic education, basic neeeds, etc. BEFORE the cost of training.

because unlike the republic, most armies recruit from an available pool of such individuals. the cost difference between free recruiting and cloned soldiers is there and just the price of buisiness.

additionally, weren't X-Wings from a different(later) time period? economic forces like inflation could have had an effect.

sometimes autism of this scale is interesting.

>If one considers the logistics involved in delivering them to a distant battlefield the cost quickly soars to astronomical numbers.
that cost would be the same regardless of how they recruited for most human or human-ish creatures though, and for a regimented group like the clones it might well be less due to them being fine in confined spaces and close quarters.

>Yee-haw, dem tin soldiers are good shootin, took out 20 o'them clankers this mornin, just like shootin them varmints on my tatooine ranch

nah, even at a high initial purchase cost, clones excell at many things:
> no political representation
> therefore no fuzz over casualty rates
> no human rights for clones
> no monthly salary upkeep
> no benefits to be paid out in case of death or injury
> no retirement fund needed
> perfect unquestioning soldier
> still blessed with human ingenuity

If you accumulate salary costs of a regular soldier over the course of his service life, the social benefits, retirement and healthinsurance as well as legal obligations...

a clone trooper is cheap. 160k credits is basically nothing to pay for a soldier, if you compare with modern western nations
> Germany
> monthly wage: 1.800€
> social benefits: 1.800€ worth
> service time: 12 years
> passover payments for 4 years equaling 70% of the salary
>>> 518.000 € investment for plain service
>>> 120.000 € paid in passover to civillian life
ontop of that add:
> Bonuses to be paid out for overtime
> compensation if he gets maimed
> compensation for family if he dies
but most importantly
> he goes into deployment for 4 months
> 10.000 € compensation for increase danger minimum
Now let him wage war for 10 years after having educated him
>>>> 300.000 € paid for combat and deployment

A modern soldier would clock in, during his servicetime, assuming he was JUST and only enlisted prior to the war, educated and then kicked out, at about 1 Million € easily.

Compared to a clone trooper as a one time payment of 160k credits with upkeep ( food, ammo etc, everything our western soldier above would also receive ), and suddenly it is obvious that you can buy 10 clone soldiers almost for every single regular enlisted human.

But we're not done.
With a Clone army, as in the Grand Army of the Republic Style, they were created just prior to the conflict, got into service just as the conflict escalated, and left service just as the conflict ended. (cont)

>commando without a rifle
don't feel it, boss

Ladies Ladies

>Not posting the under barrel GL blaster

... cont:
Now, with this clone army, for getting them online, equipped and trained, having them fight a war, you clock in
> 160k credits per Trooper
> plus Upkeep

with a regular military, as in the west, you cannot get an army ready just for a single conflict. You also cannot program newly enlisted men easily, you need a training regiment, you need to keep your forces up ALL THE TIME.
So while a wartime regular enlisted man in todays western army would be ~ 1 million € in the span of 10 years, reality in the west is this: We had almost 100 years of peace. The republic had almost 1.000 years of peace before the outbreak of the clone wars. Now you accumulate the upkeep cost of wages for a standing army over 1.000 years, only to be ready for this ONE conflict of 10 years.

> Republic keeps up a standing army
> for 1.000 years
> so it's combat ready for a 10 years engagement
> in the clone wars
> accumulated cost over time per one pair of boots on the ground
> 100 Million €
> plus upkeep

compare to
> Republic only gets a clone army
> once political tensions rise
> accumulated cost of one pair of boots on the ground
> 160 k credits
> plus upkeep

Suddenly a clone trooper is more economical by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDED as compared to the upkeep of a regular military standing army.

The Republic can literally budget:
> 1 regular enlisted soldier for 100 years
or
> 1.000 Clone Troopers for the 10 conflict years.

this is how you need to compare it.

Well, the costs have to be relative. As you mention, a modern soldier can easily be worth millions of dollars alone. I think a standard US infantryman is about 2 million on average. That said, an F-22 is potentially 300 Million per aircraft. An X-Wing is 120,000 credits, which we can assume is similar to an F-22. So the Clone still costs more than a soldier does now, relatively.

Clones were really the best things about the prequels werent they?

The seperatists had their production facilities spread across the edge of the galaxy and easily knocked out.

yes

that is true. in my last post I made an error.

You need to make it: 10.000 clone troopers per 1 enlisted man, because the republic did not enjoy 100 years of peace, but famously enjoyed 1.000 years of peace prior to the clone wars.

Whichever way you turn it, clones are much more economical than a large standing army.

No, that animated series was the best thing about the prequels.

The storm troopers had to come from something

A clone is not comparable to a starfighter as a military purchase. First of all, when you want a secret army you can not recruit from the general populace. Also, an army of clones, while expensive per soldier, is well within what a galactic government can afford. One should also not discount the political convenience as factor: the only person who gives a shit if the clones get killed is the treasurer.

Of course, when you get to the Empire it does make sense to switch over to regular recruits for the Stormtroopers. You need way more of them because you need a garrison on every world, and political convenience is way less important in a dictatorship than it is in a democracy.

If the Republic could afford to finance so many clone troopers, even if they were cheaper than real people, how did they not just clog the sky with X-Wings or the wartime equivalent given they cost less?

It's probably more a case of ships being ludicrously undercosted. X-wings in particular are made for the Rebellion out of a moral obligation, iirc, so they're probably sold at cost, if not a loss.
Star Wars ships still perfectly good after literally thousands of years in service probably fucks up the industry and economy a bit.

That show felt more like 40k than star wars to me

youtube.com/watch?v=THFxKwUrBYY

I mean look at this shit

The separatists had crap leadership, except for a few generals

A potentially millions of credits loss? Because state of the art fighter jets are really fucking expensive, way more expensive than a soldier will ever be.

The Clone Wars in general, really. The various droids, the various clones, all those beautiful vehicles. And then shit like Commando Droids and the like in the cartoons. Other than pod-racing which gave us the best N64 game ever made, the Clone Wars were just fucking filled with great shit.

They didn't build them yet

>Ships coming from warp space and ramming into one another
>General is told ship is lost
>orders no one to the escape pods but instead tells everyone get to the hanger and prepare to board though space

The first episode of the second season was such a wonderful thing.

>when the gunship crashes through the wall to fuck up grievous

yes indeed. The Empire, we can bet, also wasn't as "western" and "civilized", while a Republic Era Soldier would surely equal the costs of a modern American / European / Japanese Soldier in accumulated financial benefits,

the large army of the Empire would not need to pay so well, and would not need to take care of their soldiers as well. Being drafted as a stormtrooper surely was a shitcake for everyone, meager pay, no benefits, no retirement, all the danger, lousy equipment, lousy training.

This is a theme in starwars:
The Rebels are: High Quality Expensive Elite Troops, which goes for groundtroops as well as spaceforce.
The Empire is: Cheap disposable one use troops both on the ground as in space supplemented by few and far between elite units. (which is the middle eastern arab approach to how an army is run nowadays)

Trench was a dangerous foe for the republic during the war

I'd say the Gendy one was definitely more 40k than Star Wars, but the second was probably the most true-to-tone Star Wars we've gotten since the OT.

I dunno if the new canon still supports it, but there actually is a regular imperial army separate from the stormtroopers.

>I don't know about the Imperial war machine other than Rebel propoganda: the post

>Not posting the scene where Windu fucks an entire droid army with just the fucking force

Windu became my favorite jedi in the cartoon and then when 11 year old me goes to watch the 3 movie and you see windu you think to yourself man this is gonna end quick.....

youtube.com/watch?v=mj07qh51zPI

Because war economy is not like the economy of an RTS. You can not just pay money and buy equipment. You have production facilities that you tell to build you stuff. You probably then pay them for their output. When a nation is engaged in an existential struggle the required money gets raised, one way or another.

Is Spaarti style cloning still canon? If so, what does that do to the cost calculation?

>Meanwhile, at the TIE Fighter planning session
Shields? Who needs em
Life support? Too expensive, just wear spacesuits.
Armor? Too heavy and too expensive, leave it off.
Power plant? Small, light, cheap. Tick off all the boxes.
Guns? Quick, find the cheapest, lightest thing that will fit in the front of the pod and not cause brownouts from that shitty little power plant.
Engines? Same as guns, but the other way and less focused.
Landing gear? Nah, just put grabby arms in the bay of whatever will be carrying it. And make sure they're shaped so you can stack as many as possible in a row.

Arent those the insane clones?

yet exactly what I wanted to read

Only if you grow them in under a year. Most of the time. Still, if you want cheap, disposable cannon fodder, they're much faster to raise and train than Kaminoan cloning.

If a production facility takes longer to make something, it is more expensive. The US can't just manufacture thousands of F-22s because they take a long time and require large materiel and talent investment. That's why they cost 330 million USD each. The monetary value reflects all the costs that went into making the thing. The financing of a US soldier including all his pay and compensation after the fact is only around 2-3 million USD. A clone trooper apparently costs 40 thousand more credits than an X-Wing, and I would assume the Republic war time equivalent, and takes even longer to produce. So why do they have so few ships?

...

Checkmate SEPARATISTS

If it costs that much to train a largely disposable grunt infantryman, imagine what it costs to train a pilot.

Did someone say Star Wars: The Clone Wars?
youtube.com/watch?v=EwkNO8DDV1U

The entire life of a TIE pilot was intentionally designed to make them as semi-feral as possible. You didn't need shields or armor or a hyperdrive or life support, you put all of that power and cut all of that weight to end up in one of the most maneuverable ships in the galaxy. You rarely ever flew the same ship twice in order to prevent yourself from becoming attached to the vessel. Your quarters were constantly being blared with random sirens and claxons in order to prevent you from ever getting fully rested. Your superiors were constantly setting up rivalries between you and other members of your wing, pushing you to risk your life to outperform them.

And if you flew out into the screaming dark and sent those rebel vermin to the grave, you had a chance at getting to fly the best dog-fighter in the entire galaxy.

And you were utterly and completely reliant upon your carrier, upon your Empire. No landing gear, no hyperdrive, no life support. Everything you are depends upon them, everything you can become is thanks to them. There's no leaving, there's no fleeing. You fight and you die.

Remember, once the Imperial Navy began to be composed of primarily non-clone pilots, there was actually a movement by by officers to improve the defensive capability of the TIE/LN but it was shut-down not just by the Imperial Navy but overwhelmingly dismissed by the pilots themselves.

There goes my night

The CGI series was pretty cool but man Tarkovsky went crazy with this series

Where did you intend to get those fighters from? This is a galaxy that has been at peace for a thousand years. The number of manufacturers that offer military grade star fighters is probably limited. Once you buy all of the star fighters on the market you can't buy more star fighters, no matter how much money you throw at the problem. Only once the industrial base responds to the demand will the supply increase.

Okay, so the logical Plan B is to buy more star fighter manufacturing equipment then. But with an enormous expansion in capital ship construction, military ground vehicles and all other war material production, that manufacturing equipment will also be subject to limited availability.

F-22s don't actually cost $330 million each, that's (total cost of the entire F-22 program going back to the early 1990s)/(number of F-22s built). And we can't just manufacture thousands of them because the program got scrapped because some politician(s) had a hateboner for it. There's also the fact that for other political reasons production was more spread out than necessary.
Incidentally, the F-35, which is supposedly so much cheaper than the F-22, uses a lot of the same technology, but the cost of developing said technology is added to the cost of the F-22, but not to the cost of the F-35.

I love how Windu just contemptuously bats away blaster bolts and droids alike.

Which is why it's not Canon.

>overwhelmingly dismissed by the pilots themselves
TIEboys bestboys

Almost. Vacheads the best. Groundhogs are just a waste of resources and not much better than backwater bumpkins in Skyhoppers.

t. Superior Vachead Master Race

>This whole scene
My fucking DICK

actually, garments like that would protect from minor shrapnel and spawlling

good, now according to you are behind schedule and need to kill 20 more before dinner

question asked from the non SW buff in the room, what was the plan with the surviving troopers?
ground up for clone biomass?
what?

actually, this brings it back to

where is the 120,000 credit cost coming from and when?
if it's coming from an RPG source book it was listed as that price to allow it to be reasonably purchased by a player or party

for a while, in the US the price of gas was tiny, around a $ per gallon, then it exploded to 5 or 6 $ per gallon.

the reason is that one of the refining companies had signed a price-fixing contract with OPEC nations for a set period of years. once the contract was up so wen the price per barrel of oil.

barrels of oil or space-fighters sometimes a contract will FUCK you rough and force you to thank it after...

sometimes, just sometimes, I regret not getting into the expanded universe of Star Wars...

scarcity of supply of trained pilots?
logistics runs under attack?
Military industrial complex wants ground-war over space-war?
eventually you also really really NEED feet on the ground for ANY war.

>citation requested
not actually questioning you, just curious.

Holy shit that was pretty fucking cool, not gonna lie. This is what IG circlejerkers can only dream of.

Also, I need to check out that series. How many seasons did it go? Was this just an isolated clip or is the rest of that series as good?

The entire "show" is only 2 hours

and yes the entire series is fucking great no one posted the Greivous of Ventress scenes yet

Each episode was like 7 minutes long so they needed to jam pack as much action into it the second set of episodes were longer since everyone loved the shorts.

youtube.com/watch?v=aXlPI2XSFrc

>Jousting battalion used to be actual cannon
>Had an 80% mortality rate

>only two hours
I'm a little disappointed, but it's probably for the better. I'd rather have 2 hours of good versus X seasons of just okay with a few good clips like most cartoons.

>what was the plan with the surviving troopers
They fact they die in ten years or so from accelerated aging.

>TIE facts
I can't give a singular source, it's just from all of the material that came out about TIE pilots and their ships over the year. I'd assume most of that info comes from the books about Fel, though. The fundamental dependence is simply a part of COMPNOR principals for minimizing dissent, though.

well, troopers had axxelerated aging,
they went from foetus to fully grown and trained within a maximum of 5 years, the war lasted some 10 years or so maybe, and they were simply expected to die off afterwards due to accelerated aging.
Add to that cmobat casualties, and the concept of "surviving clone troopers after the war" really was not a concern.

Unless we throw in the Dark Troopers

Each episode is just a tiny little clip that was put out in between other content on Cartoon Network, so they tend to be action-packed as hell because they were over as soon as they began. I think they were also considered to be in-universe Republic propaganda, too, but I can't remember where I got that from.

There's also the other series which is fucking majestic as well, giving you all sorts of radical shit like the Maul arc, the coolest bounty hunter in the entire franchise CAD BANE, clones with actual personalities, the Deathwatch, and the pure nightmare that was the Battle for Umbara.

Fucking Pong Krell, man.

>There's also the other series
What's the name?

Problem with the Star Wars clone wars 2012 show was you have really good episodes and then really bad episodes

Season 6 was amazing all the way though

>They fact they die in ten years or so from accelerated aging.
neat, and I bet they probably would have an implemented enzyme release upon death to break them down reasonably quickly into environmentally non-harmful sub-component chemicals....or at least if I was a conscientious creator that's what I'd include as a standard feature...

I wonder if you could deliver a bunch of the dead ones back to Kamino for a return on the initial deposit, like the nickel you can get back for glass bottles in some places...

>90 posts in
>people mention ARCs
>no mention of best commandos

The Clone Wars. Not to be confused with Clone Wars. Or the movie, the Clone Wars.

Nah, the first season is really the only wash, and even then you've got Plo Koon's arc, the introduction of Grey versus Grey in the Republic versus CIS fight, Windu being Windu, Clones getting personality, Greivious backstory, and CAD BANE.

And if you don't want any of the fluff, you just use this.

If I ever run a game where the players are clones, that last line is a thing I will have an antagonist ponder aloud.

generic genndy ARCs are cooler than Delta squad

fight me

Pity that the Mouse got a hold of Star Wars and thus the Clone Wars got canceled. They were actually prepping a Bad Batch arc featuring totally-not-Delta-Squad.

The problem with the commando lore was that Delta were the only good/non gary stu troopers

The mouse erasing the NULL ARCs is the best thing in the cannon erasing

you are genuinely welcome.

requesting either he or a named subordinate is Duck-Billed and fuzzy, and walks with a staff. vest covered in pockets totally optional...

Age of Rebellion, using this. ez pz

This. That autism was truly intriguing.