Make a charisma-based character

Go fuck yourself.

Roleplaying is about playing characters who are different from you, and people should be free to play what they like.

There are plenty of ways to play a character smarter or more sociable as yourself. As a GM I don't demand good roleplaying- I might give a bonus for it, but if someone is struggling I'm fine as long as they give me a simple description of what they're doing. That is all they're obliged to do.

If someone playing an ostensibly low Cha character makes a grand speech, I'll ask them to roll because their actions exist through the lens of their character, and like as not their character would fuck up the delivery and make it worse.

Meanwhile, if an unsociable guy wants to play a Bard but isn't sure how to phrase something? It's fine. I ask what he's trying to accomplish, make a roll and then go from there.

It's not hard. It's fair, it's reasonable and above all it's fucking fun.

maybe you just play with retards
I roleplay out what my character says plenty while I'm playing and I still don't want to write an inaugural speech every time I want to barter a price on something or get a random gnome to stop crying.

>maybe you just play with retards
I'm pretty sure he is the retard.

In roleplaying games, for almost everything else you want a description. Fluffing how you're attacking or making something or casting a spell isn't the same as performing the action itself. It can be the same with social stuff.

If someone can roleplay it? Awesome. If not, as long as they describe what and how they're doing, I don't think it should be treated any differently.

Basically any player can say something like, "I open the chest to see what's inside," or, "I tap the bricks on the east wall."

But to save longwinded nonsense like:
"I look under the bed!"
"There's nothing there."
"Okay, I look behind the headboard."
"Nothing."
"All right, under the nightstand?"
"Nothing there either."
"Hmm, how about in the mattress?"
etc.

You can just do:
"I search the room."
"Okay, make a Search roll."

Or even:
"I try to convince the guard to let us pass."
"Okay, give me a Persuasion roll."

So it's a fallback for more abstract actions like "I search" or "I negotiate" or "I force open the door". Any character could spot the hidden key, flatter the king, or pry the hinges from a door, but that's different to a Search, Charisma, or Strength roll.

Being specific does not exclude the need for a roll, doing something that's not challenging does.

This. An inobservant character shouldn't notice the key, and an uncharismatic character shouldn't flatter the king, or at least not effortlessly. The numbers on your sheet aren't just things to fall back on, they're representations of your character and should be used to guide your roleplaying.

I usually just play it as we talk about it in character, then we just assume the intelligent PC figured it out in character.

Or if the mental dumpstat guy did it, he said something dumb that gave the smart guy an epiphany on what the answer.

>Wizard: Hmm, what walks on four legs in the morning, two in the evening, and three at night. Quite a brainteaser.
>Barbarian: Stupid beardy man think too much.
>Wizard: Oh hush you illitera-wait.....what did you just say?
>Barbarian: Uh..stupid beardy man thi-
>Wizard: Beardy man..man..MAN, OF COURSE. Grobnarak you're a genius!

Yes, because roleplaying is a socially-based activity.

Don't like it? Go play football.

>I still don't want to write an inaugural speech every time I want to barter a price on something or get a random gnome to stop crying.

This is an impressive level of exaggeration.

All you need to do is say something like "Well, hmm, perhaps this weapon should be a bit cheaper than that, don't you think?"

Even that is enough. It doesn't have to be that fucking fantastic. Just put in a goddamn effort you little mongoloidal fuck, instead of just "I roll to try to barter a lower price." That isn't roleplaying, that's a goddamn board game.

I'm pretty sure you're a fucking moron with no counterargument to what I just said.

>Even that is enough. It doesn't have to be that fucking fantastic. Just put in a goddamn effort you little mongoloidal fuck, instead of just "I roll to try to barter a lower price." That isn't roleplaying, that's a goddamn board game.
This is one of the things DW got right.
Players should talk about what their character is doing and the DM should initiate the mechanics.
"I roll for ______ " is garbage play.

>you can only roleplay yourself, otherwise you're not roleplaying
This guy.

You can tell he's full of shit by the way he ignores most of the actual points made against him.

>Roleplaying is about playing characters who are different from you, and people should be free to play what they like.

Sure. But if you don't even bother to ROLEPLAY your character, why are you allowed in the game?

Roleplaying has two main components: actual roleplaying of dialogue, and description of action. That's just part of the way people have been roleplaying for years. Your group is free to do it differently, but that is the standard. Sorry. Yes, that means a charismatic character needs to put in effort to actually ACT charismatic.

This does not mean you need to be clever.

This does not mean you need to be a good orator.

This does not mean you need to be charismatic in real life.

I am none of those things and I still pull off a bard or paladin or whatever just fine. Not spectacularly, but fine. And yes, a character who is good at roleplaying will roleplay a charismatic character well. Because social interaction is one of the things that is actually taking place in the game. Not the lifting, or fighting, or else HEMA addicts would be the best fighters like they are in a LARP. That's not the way tabletop RPGs work.

Don't like it? Go play football.

>Not rolling social skills first and roleplaying the attempt based on the result afterwards
I bet you plebeians do critical success/failure on skill checks too.

You really are an arrogant, condescending cunt of a gatekeeper. Do you even have anyone you actually play with or do you just spend all your time telling other people they're having fun wrong?

Are you autistic? You cannot escape who you are in terms of roleplaying. Your characters will always be affected by your own personality. You can certainly roleplay someone different from yourself, but you have to actually ROLEPLAY them. That involves expanding your roleplaying skills. Again, no one is asking for a moving speech just to negotiate. Only that you actually talk in character. You don't need a clever gimmick. You can do a shitty job at being "charming" but it at least keeps some semblance of immersion.

Exactly which points have I ignored you stupid fuck? Post them.

This.

Well if the GM says it calls for a roll then it calls for a roll (e.g. busting down a door), but myself as an 8 Strength person could still easily remove the hinges and make my way inside the next room. That's not challenging.

What if the unobservant character said, "I look under the pillow," and the key was there? Would you really make them pass a DC 15 skill check to notice a key under a pillow they just looked at?

Of course the numbers should fit your roleplaying, but they shouldn't break common sense. D&D 5E makes the point that it doesn't take a Dexterity check to walk across a room or a Charisma check to order a drink.

The gist is that player skill matters since it's a game. You can solve the riddle or know what will please the king or how to open that stuck door. But if you don't know these things and your character is particularly intelligent or charismatic or strong, you can fall back on ability/skill checks. You don't have to make it an ultra-specific acting exercise.

One of two things is true
A. You are actually just bitching about roleplaying and should probably just be honest with your DM and say "I just play for the rules, not to role playing" or "yeah I can't think of what to say" whichever is true
B. Your DM is a retard and you shouldn't bother playing charisma characters if your success is up to your actual charisma and your DM's whims
I am not sure which is true but deal with it appropriately.

Why is the unobservant character looking under the pillow?

Fuck i am glad I do not play with /trg/

> Do you even have anyone you actually play with

I do, and they actually put effort into their roleplaying. None of them are particularly charming or clever or brilliant. They are great people but my point is that they are not exceptionally talented roleplayers or actors or anything of that sort.

RPGs are not a hugbox or a safespace. It is not too much to ask that someone actually roleplays your character. If you don't want to actually roleplay, instead just "I roll for X to get a lower price on my sword" then you should go play Skyrim or Diablo and pick from prepackaged scripted responses because that is clearly the extent of your roleplaying talent and ability.

>you have to roleplay yourself or you're not roleplaying
I don't understand how someone could miss the point of roleplaying this much and also insist that it's the way everybody else does it. Please play a tabletop game before you talk about them.

> I am glad I play with a group that replaces actual roleplaying with Diplomacy checks

I'm glad I don't play with you, either.

change INT to MAG or something, pointless problem solved

This.

Oh, don't get me wrong, the groups I'm in all roleplay our characters and such.

I just think you're a cunt for labelling anyone who doesn't as having badwrongfun.

I enjoy roleplaying, and I do think it adds to a game experience, but you just come off as being a cunt to people who might struggle or not otherwise be comfortable with it. And being a dick about it is just about the least effective way of actually helping people learn or encouraging them to step out of their comfort zone.

>Make post getting angry at your DM for having badwrongfun
>Other posters try to defend them and explain why often this style is preferred
>WOW AUTISTS WHY CAN'T I HAVE FUN MY WAY

Are you okay?

>Promised that the game is going to be full roleplaying with puzzles, intrigue and little to no combat
>Make a character accordantly
>Day of the game
>Rest of players make retard combat beasts
>Game shifts to full combat
>Ask for rerolling my char
>"Nope"
>Have to beg to use my skills
>Ask GM for help
>"If you don't know how nuclear science works irl then you can't roll even if your character is a genius at it" and similar
>Leave
>Get gmails from the GM asking why did I storm out

Holy fucking shit, you are retarded. You think if you repeat the same shit I literally just addressed over and over, and claim to have some lofty incomprehesible standard of what roleplaying is, you'll somehow win the argument?

Again, anyone can roleplay whatever they want. They can even do it well. You can be a total sperg and do a somewhat decent bard. You don't have to be a talented actor. Just say something that isn't total shit. It isn't that hard.

This has nothing to do with "roleplaying yourself", it has to do with whether or not you are roleplaying. Period. And, if you are not capable of roleplaying something, you should be roleplaying that thing. That does not mean "you are restricted to roleplaying yourself" at all, and the fact that you think I am saying that demonstrates how incredibly narrow-minded and dogmatic you are.

I'm fine, if a little worried about your degree of reading comprehension. Nursing a NYE hangover?

>the groups I'm in all roleplay our characters and such.
> I just think you're a cunt for labelling anyone who doesn't as having badwrongfun.

I don't think they are having badwrongfun (well, I do, actually, I think that's fucking retarded), but if you are not roleplaying in a roleplaying game, you aren't playing a roleplaying game, you're just playing a game.

And I came here to play a roleplaying game. So if you're not willing to roleplay, get the fuck out of my house.

Simple as that.

>but you just come off as being a cunt to people who might struggle or not otherwise be comfortable with it.

That's because it is not my responsibility to be your hugbox, or safespace, little snowflake. That's not my job. I am not a fucking babysitter. I will certainly do my best to help new roleplayers but if they won't even put in the fucking effort, or just whine about their "social anxiety", then they can find another way to spend their Saturday evenings. Sorry.

Let me tell you something. Like many RPG players I did once have some trouble with social anxiety. Not "all" or even "most", by the way, just "many." A lot of people have these issues. But do you know what I did? I grew the fuck up and got over it. Leave your comfort zone. There is no excuse for staying in it.

Because the player decided that's their character's course of action. Call it intuition or luck or something if you don't like the idea that the player is controlling their player character.

Again, talk to the players and ask what they want. Chances are it'll be the guy who loves puzzles who wants to solve puzzles.

If you're gimping charisma-based characters because of the inability of their player to make convincing arguments when persuading someone as the character, you should also gimp strength-based characters if the player is unable to fight well. Otherwise this is a strange exception to an already arbitrary definition of roleplaying that nobody actually agrees with outside of your circle of friends, and makes several character archetypes much weaker than they should be.

You ever get penalized in character for your real life deficiencies? I got points taken off for stuttering

>you should also gimp strength-based characters if the player is unable to fight well.
They're certainly gimped if they can't figure out how to fight people in the system (i.e. go up to people and hit them).
If they employ stupid strategies, they get stupid results.

Oh look, it's the same with diplomacy. Fancy that.

>go up to people and hit them
>Oh look, it's the same with diplomacy.
>go up to people and convince them
>NOOO THIS IS NOT THE SAME THIS IS NOT CORRECT ROLEPLAYING REE
Okay friend.

>I run through fifteen threatened areas to hit the iron golem with my wooden club
>Roll to see how hard he makes you suck his iron prong
vs
>I buddy up with the rogue to absorb the monster's attacks on my armour while he and I cut the beast's tendons
>You rule, here's a fountain of XP and 1d4 elven concubines
Looks like doing it right works out better than doing it wrong, cockslap.

>gimping charisma-based characters
Except that user wasn't talking about that. Unless I've misunderstood, it looks like he was addressing his frustration towards players who don't try to roleplay charisma and instead believe that rolling high numbers on the die will justify any and all "charismatic" actions

Yeah, he seems to have a reasoanble point, just one that's rather poorly communicated.

I'm not sure how you got that from his insane ramblings. He has literally said that you shouldn't roleplay things you yourself can't do, unless it's about being a good warrior, in which case it's fine because he says so.

More like: if you're boring as shit describing things, gtfo the hobby.

He didn't say that anywhere you mong

>Again, no one is asking for a moving speech just to negotiate.
If for just a moment you ceased your autistic screeching about some weirdly niche and specific scenario that isn't even that big of a deal even if it does occur, you'd realize that this thread is about GMs who actually do ask for that kind of thing.

Which is, of course, dumb as all hell. "If your descriptions are boring, here are some ideas about how to get better" would be the reasonable response to someone being shit at descriptions.

Where do you think we are?

> you'd realize that this thread is about GMs who actually do ask for that kind of thing.

Except those GMs don't actually exist, except as a strawman for the benefit of lazy players who don't bother to roleplay.

Your DM should kill himself.

>If you're gimping charisma-based characters because of the inability of their player to make convincing arguments when persuading someone as the character, you should also gimp strength-based characters if the player is unable to fight well.

Nope. Because roleplaying games are about talking, not lifting weights. It's inherent in their nature. It's unfortunate, sure, but as I described above, it's not that hard to play a high-charisma character decently. And yes, if you are negotiating as your character, you have to have actual arguments. That's why OP's whining is bullshit. You can't just roll a 47 Charisma check and convince the king to suck his own dick.

If you don't make your fighters act out every attack they perform, then you shouldn't need anything more than a stated goal from the bard's player when he tries to negotiate. Most GMs, however, are dumb enough to demand that the bard's player says word for word what his character is saying, and then determine if what the player said is convincing enough to warrant a check or penalties on that check. This is extremely common and makes mechanically charismatic characters useless.

And that's the fucking problem, not whatever is sperging out about.

I'm sorry the game isn't casual enough for you.

>And yes, if you are negotiating as your character, you have to have actual arguments.

ALRIGHT FAGGOT DM STORY TIME I SAY IN MY BACKSTORY TEN FUCKING TIMES THAT MY CHARACTER IS AN EXPERT TACTICIAN AND I HAVE THE SKILL RANKS TO PROVE IT BUT THE DM DOESNT LET ME HAVE DO OVERS WHEN I MAKE A TACTICAL MIUSTAKE TJUHIS MISNT FAIR AST ALL WHY THE FUCKING HEKLL DOES THE FUCIKNIBG PEODPTIHLE BARD GET TO ROLL HIS FANCY TUNGOLFUSDA WHILER IA HAVE TO DO LRA TACTICS IM NOLT OLKMN E OIN REAL LIFE WWWAAHHHHHHH!! WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!

This is a give and take scenario with no strict line to draw.

On the one hand, as a DM, if a player just says 'I persuade such and such to do so and so' and throws some charisma rolls, I'm gonna be righteously pissed. As a player, if the DM expects me to make a rousing speech to persuade such and such to do so and so, and then fails me when I don't, I'm gonna be righteously pissed.

The solution is pretty obvious, you just have to be reasonable about these things.

>He has literally said that you shouldn't roleplay things you yourself can't do, unless it's about being a good warrior, in which case it's fine because he says so.

I didn't "literally" say any of that you stupid fucking moron. Quit putting words in my mouth to justify your bullshit.

> He has literally said that you shouldn't roleplay things you yourself can't do

No, but I am sick of this argument that just because you have meme disorders like social anxiety, that that excuses you from at least trying to act somewhat charming when playing a character who is supposed to be charming. You don't have to be a genius, just make an effort. Pretty much anybody can pull off a charisma character just fine if they actually have the slightest semblance of personality and actually speak in character.

Your argument is that you shouldn't roleplay in a roleplaying game unless you are a blackbelt in martial arts to justify you being able to shoot, completely ignoring RPGs' inherently narrative and social nature.

Is it fair? Not particularly. But it's the doctrine of RPGs and you can either like it or leave it.

>If you don't make your fighters act out every attack they perform, then you shouldn't need anything more than a stated goal from the bard's player when he tries to negotiate.

False equivalency you retarded faggot. Roleplaying games are a conversation. You speak in character, do you not? Yes, I expect you to say word-for-word what your character is saying. If you are not capable of giving at the very least a shitty excuse for acting persuasive (hell, be corny and straightforward about it, it would never work in real life but that doesn't matter because it works for your chaacter), then you literally deserve to die. In real life. Full stop. People who are that incapable of basic social interaction, should be taken out in the street by the police and shot. There is no excuse for this shit, especially when you signed up for a roleplaying game, which is a SOCIAL activity.

Just admit you're a casual that wants a power fantasy rather than a game. Maybe freeform roleplay on a #safespace tranny forum is more your speed.

If you want to play the strongest methods, then I will hold you to higher standards and spread rumors that you're a creepy pedophile at the table if you cross me.

You're a 3e baby aren't you? Prior to that, the game outright said "You better start talking if you want to convince the king to suck your dick" but you started crying crocodile tears, just like a toddler, because you didn't get your way with your character who is from your favorite shonen jump anime.

Death camp for you all.

False flag, pls ignore.

> Oh look you rolled a nat 20 on persuasion, you can make this guy do this even though there is absolutely no reason he would, because your persuaded him with persuasive persuasiveyness! Good for you! Now the story makes zero fucking sense

You can't negotiate with nothing, dumbfuck. Your persuasion determines whether they agree to what you want but there better still be a potential reason for them to do it.

This. Also nice dubs.

>>I'm fine as long as they give me a simple description of what they're doing. That is all they're obliged to do.

You're not obligated to actually be super charismatic and charming IRL to play a bard, but I think you're obligated to at least make some effort at roleplaying, and the DM is obligated to not penalize you for not being great at it (but possibly to give you bonuses for doing a good job, which is to encourage good roleplaying).

The purpose of CHA checks is to help shy players role-play without putting a lot of pressure on them not to fuck it up.

Well, perhaps my opinion is a little extreme at the end there, but the rest of my point is valid. These stupid cucks will never see it, though, because they think they are entitled to play whatever kind of character they want, even if it produces a shitty roleplaying experience for everyone else because they cannot roleplay for fuck.

One last point for you thick fucks who can't seem to comphrehend this inherent aspect of roleplaying games:

How do books describe a sword swing? By saying what happens.

How do books describe dialogue? By writing the fucking dialogue.

It's the same in RPGs.

You can have some dialogue off-screen, sure. But what 's the point of even playing if you don't roleplay the important interactions, if you can't even do that, why the fuck are you playing a charisma based character? It's not for you. Play a fighter.

Or better yet, go play football.

>Is it fair? Not particularly.
wew

>he purpose of CHA checks is to help shy players role-play

Except these "shy" players need to get the fuck out of the hobby. Their "social anxiety" is not real. It's called being a pussy. Get over it. Stop being shy. There's no reason or excuse for it. Roleplay online over text if you can't handle actual social interaction. But do not come to a game, play a charming bard, and not even try to act like one and be silent and fuck up everyone's suspension of disbelief. If you do that, you are an asshole. Period. Full stop. The game is not about you, you are there to help contribute to other peoples' enjoyment, as they are to contribute to yours. But when you don't hold up your end, you don't deserve shit. End of story.

"wew" does not change the inherent nature of roleplaying games. You don't like them? Play skyrim. You can play a high Charisma character in that without opening your fucking mouth once.

>"ok i want to diplomacy roll this!"
>ok, what are you going to counter his offer with?
>"what? I dont know, thats why im rolling for it"
>So you have nothing feasable to pursued him and just want to jedi mind trick him?
>"My character would know!"

Thats not how that shit fucking works. You dont have to say it all out, but you need to fucking give me an idea of what your going to try and roll for. The charisma checks are just convincing someone of somthing, not just forcing them to say yes.

Never stop posting. Your sperging out is really great.

Did you send this greentext to him?

If not, do so and post results.

I punish players for being clerics and not knowing shit about their god. One guy ragequit because he was put on "probation" for referring to his patron archdevil as a "demon".

>Make a dexterity-based character
>Have to shoot the DM myself to get a chance to shoot an enemy

>MUH SHELL
There is no such thing as "shy", I'm fucking autistic and I don't have a problem roleplaying, so you need to just lock yourself in a closet like the faggot you are and STAY there.

You have no fucking argument.

Not everyone can shoot a gun, everyone can communicate.

Unless they're someone who should be put in a looney bin.

>Except these "shy" players need to get the fuck out of the hobby

Wow, you're so dedicated to being a gatekeeping dickweasel that you didn't even read my sentence to the end.

Charisma checks exist so that people who are new to role-playing or bad at it can still play charismatic characters as long as they make an *effort* to role-play. That is so that they can *play* a *game*.

>play a charisma based character
>hope to just roll and force my DM to come up with an argument and an intended outcome for me
>probably will still bitch about it

Unless you've got no fingers then you can, in fact, shoot a gun. And at my table no goblin's dead and no experince is gained until you kill somebody. We really roleplay out here, we're not fucking pussies.

Buddy I think you need to calm down. You're having a discussion on Veeky Forums about tabletop games it's not that big of a deal.

Them's fightin' words, boy!

Oh hey, the asshole gatekeepers have stopped even pretending to not be petty dickwads trying to keep the hobby closed off and niche by being assholes to anyone who actually struggles getting into it.

>Their "social anxiety" is not real. It's called being a pussy.
Yeah, the scans I had at the hospital that show my brain lighting up like a forest fire when I get stressed aren't real.
Guess these are placebo pills I get from the doctors, and it's coincidental that I was a fucking basketcase before they started giving me them. My testable neurochemistry is all fake too, right?

Please use the term overdiagnosed.

>RPGs are not a hugbox or a safespace.
That's the buzzwordiest thing I've ever read.

When freaks weren't chased off we got tranny shit and furry races in our games.

Your stats represent a lack of intuition. A high Investigate stat indicates that your character would think to look under pillows and the like; a low Investigate would indicate the opposite, that's the point of stats.

"I train my rifle on the bad guy and fire when the cross hairs andre over centre mass" is an abstraction of having a high shooting while "I pull the trigger repeatedly in panic" is an abstraction of having a low skill much in the same way.

So yeah, you're literally just an asshole. Good to know you're safe to ignore and disregard. Fuck off and stop making our hobby a less pleasant place to be.

Its real, its a problem, you have to deal with it.

Deal with it.

>X isn't real
>I have X
>X is real and is your problem to deal with

>The charisma checks are just convincing someone of somthing, not just forcing them to say yes.
This is a reasonable and, I believe, correct stance.

>I diplomacy at the guard
Is about as useful as:
>I perception at the room

A check follows a chosen course of action. Even attacking you're still choosing to either full-attack with the weapon you have in hand, or maybe to trip, or grapple, etc. Shit, at least specify that you want to convince the guard to let you pass or something.

I'm pretty sure that's been around since the beginning, friend.

>Shit, at least specify that you want to convince the guard to let you pass or something.
Why do people keep assuming that this is somehow the issue at hand? The problem is that for a lot of GMs "I persuade the guard to let me pass" isn't good enough. They want you to get into the nitty gritty of what exactly you say to have him let you pass. Of course nobody just does "I [skill name] at [object]" out of the fucking blue for no reason.

>everyone can communicate.
Been working on helpdesk for a bit, and I would say this is objectively wrong. Whole lot of people have problem expressing what they want or what their problem is.
As the other side of the conversation, you can take two approaches when that happens
a) follow verbatim on what they said regardless of possible (miss)interpretations - this works if you're just feeling lazy and want to get it over with or want to be a smug asshole
b) guide them to express themselves better by asking the right questions - this works if you want to be actually helpful

I can do the latter just fine when necessary, but it's not something I would particularly enjoy doing on my free time. One of the reasons I stopped GMing.

OK, we have some separate things going on here:
>You must specify the argument you wish to convince your target of, not just the outcome you want
>You must speak in-character, first person style, to use the skill
>You must literally convince the DM of your position/argument
I'd be interested to see a quick straw poll of who believes what.

>RPGs are not a hugbox or a safespace.
What ARE roleplaying games in your opinion?

I agree its give and take for both parties, and has got to be a good balance of actual checks and acting. But it's why as a GM you hide the dice and fudge the results if you think the players are good enough. RPGs should be a bit dynamic, and not purely about numbers.

And its mildly fucking annoying when some of my players are unwilling to put in the effort to say anything after I myself and the other players have put in a heap of effort acting out NPC's and their characters. I get it, some people struggle with it or are shy, and it is absolutely asinine to in depth describe every little thing, but please try for some. Forget good role-play, its really boring hearing someone say "i role a such and such check, do I succeed?" For an entire session.

Stunt bonuses are a good way I've found to get people to think and act out what they are doing. Sure, you could succeed on just your roll and skill check, but i might not be on the same page as you (and shockingly, might not have thought of the exact thing your character is trying to do.