Old School Renaissance General - /osrg/

Who is FreddyP and why do you dislike him?

Terrors & Wonders v0.1 here for anyone interested. Added a rule for increasing ability scores based on Bruce Heard's ideas and removed level-dependent variables from the spells.

v0.2 will have cantrip-type abilities for Wizards and Rogue abilities will finally be detailed.

Spazz from the AD&D 2E community who was only later recognized by everyone to be a spazz. Tries to get people banned when he's exposed as being "wrong" about some trivial rules matter. Now he's banned everywhere but THACO's Hammer refuses to denounce him.

>scrolls can be bought from the magic shoppe
God, don't do this. Don't let players buy scrolls just like that, don't have a magic shoppe at all.

You definitely want the player M-Us to have to adventure for their spells, and the same for all other items.

>Best session you've ran lately? Share some highlights
Ran my fiancee, her brother and her sister-in-law a Basic Fantasy game just before New Years.

Twice.

Despite warning that they should not treat the game like later editions of D&D or even as Dragon Age or Skyrim or whatever, they proceeded to try to sleep around with everyone to get what they wanted (the sister-in-law played a slut elf), run head long at any and all monsters (brother) or run down a long and old mine shaft because they heard goblins down it.

Brother got surrounded by orcs and offed, fiancee fell into a spiked pit and sis-in-law fled after throwing all of her money at the oncoming monsters to distract them long enough for an escape.

Still, it was quite a bit of fun.

No one said the spells can be permanently learned from said scrolls.

Eh, except the rules...?
But besides, even so you don't want spellcasters to be able to stack up on cheap single-fire spells they can't cast normally. It throws off the balance.

At that point why not make them one use magic items? Like an orange bead that when thrown explodes into a fireball or a pack of dust that turns you invisible when sprinkled on yourself.

I was waiting for this!

>The new rogue's capstone is a lot better
>You followed my suggestion of swapping cleave and action, cool!
>Cantrips will be in the next version, I want to see how you implement it

Somethings I didn't think the other time:
>initiative will be mind, body or neither?
>what about reaction checks? They are charisma based, will you be cutting them?
>stats to AC?

I'm busy right now, will read it fully soon. I like what I'm seeing tho

>At that point why not make them one use magic items?
Sure. They can be fluffed in any way imaginable.

>You followed my suggestion of swapping cleave and action SURGE*, cool!
Fixed

Why make them cheap? Besides, you don't have to have an infinite number of items for sale.

It seems obvious most people in OSR general are against having mechanics that make 'builds' a thing in OSR games.

But if you allow players to customize the rewards they get when they level up in nonrestrictive ways, is that in itself build-making?

>Eh, except the rules...?
Not in the game I prefer and that's OD&D.

Hey folks

what's a good starting adventure that can be dropped into any generic fantasy setting relatively easily?

>is that in itself build-making?
Yes. It introduces a new type of arbitrary meta game into the mix that in my opinion conflicts pretty strongly with the overall design. If the player seeks rewards in mechanical character building there are plenty of games that offer that kind of tinkering but D&D is not one of them.

Not that guy, but in addition to the OD&D LBBs B/X also skips learning spells from scrolls.

It's really just a thing in AD&D and BECMI.

B1 In Search of the Unknown.

If you've got a Civilization vs. Wilderness thing going on, as is so common in D&D, B2 The Keep on the Borderlands probably fits in just fine.

If you've got vast deserts where There May Or May Not Be Dragons, B4 The Lost City might also work despite its eccentricities.

Hello again.

>Cantrips will be in the next version, I want to see how you implement it
It's basically just limited to 5e's Thaumaturgy as of right now.

>initiative will be mind, body or neither?
I had planned on it being a straight d20 roll. I know, I seem to be a contradictory in my attitude toward ability scores.

>what about reaction checks?
Just a straight 2d8 roll. It's weighted toward unfriendly/indifferent so even then sudden combat isn't guaranteed. I might make the current table only apply to sapient creatures.

>stats to AC?
Not at the moment except for the wizard's mystical defense. I might add a Star Wars RPG-style class AC bonus.

It really depends on the players in question. Some players will try to add flavorful abilities while others will go full munchkin. Viable as a homebrew, not as a general system.

I like B4 Lost City, although its weirdness quotient might make it too un-generic.

...

To the guy asking about non-cancer miniature options in the last thread, Ral Partha are the classic go-tos from the 80s and you can find large lot for around $30-50 on eBay all the time or small packages like pic related for ~$5.

ebay.com/sch/Ral-Partha-Miniatures-War-Games/16489/bn_1893485/i.html

They're not detailed molds by any means, but they're tin & pewter and the shoddy production matched with the metal material gives it a very appropriate ancient feel. I wouldn't go with anything else.

>I had planned on it being a straight d20 roll.
I would recommend a smaller dice then, a d10 or even a d6

>Just a straight 2d8 roll.
Could you explain you reasoning? Why? 2d8?

Thanks!

Thinking of getting this and running it. Is it any good?

General consensus says yes.

Fighter 'Feats'

Every level, including first level, pick one of these. You can pick one of them multiple times if you want, which stacks the effect.
>Toughness; Improve your AC as though you were armored or as though you had higher dexterity by +1, but cannot exceed the normal limits of AC or armor using this.
>Warcry; Force a morale check on all enemies. Add -1 to their roll each time you pick this.
>Wuxia; If unarmored- Jump 20ft in the air or in any direction. Do impossible feats of coordination or balance; ie fighting on top of reeds. Add +10 ft possible each time you pick this.
>Cleave; Every time you kill an enemy with an excess of damage you can make an attack roll against another enemy to give the remaining damage to them. Each time you pick this you can roll over 1 enemy.
>Charge; Stand there menacingly or ball your fists and scream like Goku, sacrificing your attack. Next round you get +1d6 attacks, another +1d6 each time you take this.
>Parrying; Instead of making an attack add +1d6 to you or another character's AC. Each time you pick this you can extend this protection to another character.
>Withstand; Roll a save whenever you are struck with some powerful force like a dragon's breath, blasting spell, explosive, ogre club, etc. If you make the save you are not moved- Add +1 to save AND reduce damage from these sources by -1 each time you take this.
>Healing Balm; Pick something common but still limited like alcohol, sex, gambling, etc. Whenever you do this you can heal 1 HP. +1 each time you pick this.
>Tooth & Nail; If you are grappled you deal 1 damage per round to the grappled enemy automatically each round. +1 damage per round each time you pick this.
>Surprise; Whenever you are the victim of a sneak attack, you get +1 AC. Whenever you surprise somebody else, you gain +1 to hit.
>Mageblade; Corkscrew your weapon in your hand and make it burst into flame/frost/lightning/sunlight/etc. Deals +1d6 bonus damage but only to enemies weak to it.

I'm currently running this campaign. Its amazing, gonzo, and all kinds of fun.

My players are currently on the plateau. One's been mutated by a trap and has tentacles. Her body also de-aged to about 12 years old due to a Kabuki-like mask that fused to her face. They murdered a hippo and its baby and felt bad about it. One tried to stab an iron spike into a crocodile head and suffered severely for it. A mud covered African voodoo priestess played mind games with the party's Witch. They narrowly missed being eaten alive by a 3 mile long death-stampede of fireants.

I recommend using this spell supplement along with it.

Here's some dudes great recaps:
anxietywizard.blogspot.com/p/die-verboten-schatzgrube.html

I really don't understand the urge of some people to turn old school D&D into Pathfinder.

I would suggest making it only every odd level as some of these are pretty intense. Still, I really do like these and am stealing them for my games now!

>Pathfinder
>Restrictive feats requiring more feats
>Feats just let you do things anyone should be able to do, like trip or use great weapons
>Fighters still shitty and underpowered

>Birdman Feats
>Cool high flying fighting powers and bonuses
>Nobody requires them, and nobody else can do them
>Makes Fighters overpowered as fuck

>In any way comparable

>I would recommend a smaller dice then, a d10 or even a d6
I'll think about it.

>Could you explain you reasoning?
I feel that Charisma's effects on reaction checks are a bit too artificial. Why would a guard be nonchalant about an intruder just because they speak well or are pretty? Why an orc care about that? Why would a fire beetle?
As for 2d8, I just wanted a broader spread than 2d6 offers.
And now that I think about there could be occasions where Body/Mind/Soul could apply to reaction checks. Food for thought.

As an aside, I really appreciate your questions and comments. They get my noggin joggin'.

Options are fun. Too many options are not fun. There is room for options in an OSR game, but nobody's really discovered how much room.

Why include a mostly useless feat like Healing Balm among all the others?

>tin & pewter
Absolute shit compared to the power of RALADIUM

dndlead.com/ral-partha/RP-Monsters500.htm

>Why include a mostly useless feat like Healing Balm among all the others?
Trap options.
I'm pretty sure he just didn't think too hard about it.

They seem perfectly comparable to me.

It just irks me that these threads quite often devolve into homebrew threads that have very little to do with old school D&D. It's very evident that many posters come from modern games like 3.PF and view OSR as a synonym for general homebrewing where everything goes.

It's called Old School Renaissance for a reason. I have nothing against modern game design but I'd rather have that in a separate thread. But that's just me I guess.

>*Indulgence; Pick a vice, such as gambling, sex, booze, or prayer. Fully restore your health if you engage in it for a day. Limit the price of doing this by -100 gold each time you take this. If you get it down to free, you're a rabble rouser who can start a party wherever.

The reason why I wanted to include Fighter feats is because it's just honestly dumb how every class gets them except for the Fighter. And yes, that's all OSR including nuschool OSR like LotFP.

Thieves get to pick their skills.
Clerics get to choose their Gods
Wizards get to find and develop their own unique spelllists

Fighters do not get any of this. I want to make Fighters as variable as anyone else, and because of how many different types of warrior and fighter there are in the entirety of culture and world history there is a lot of room.

personally I have no problems with "builds" or other mechanical methods of character customization in an OSR context, otherwise characters(especially non-magic ones) tend to end up samey, but then almost everyone I know(including myself admittedly) is absolutely horrible at Roleplaying, so they can't really make their characters distinct in that manner, the important thing is that "Builds" need to be implemented in a way that both minimizes restrictions, and has minimal "trap" options

basically I feel people who claim that mechanical forms of character customization aren't OSR are blowing hot wind out of their asses, often because they've been mentally scarred from how 3.5/Pathfinder implemented it badly, and now overreact when any game has even the smallest sign of such systems

honestly 99% of my interest in OSR is due to how simple and easy to modify the systems are, I really don't care about upholding a lot of the "Sacred Cows" of OSR that people bring up if it gets in the way of my enjoyment

>Pick a vice
>prayer

And besides, is there any reason why this has to be exclusive to fighters? Why shouldn't a wizard nerding out over some dusty tomes and a thief committing petty vandalism give them the same effect?

Just replace the default healing rules with those.

Don't fighters normally amass a bunch of cool weapons?
Thieves only pick skills in LotFP IIRC and in that system fighters don't need any buffing.
Clerics choosing their god is normally a one time thing that doesn't really change any game mechanics.
Wizards only get spells that they find and research isn't always reliable.

>Fighters do not get any of this.
I see what you're trying to do, but I don't agree with you that it needs to be done or that there even is a problem that needs fixing.

The feats you listed are frankly speaking overpowered to the point of breaking the game. If that's the game you want to play that's fine, but I wouldn't call it OSR by any stretch of imagination.

I feel like in OSR aside from roleplaying, the best way you differentiate characters of the same class is by the cool magical items you get. Like sure you made another fighter, but this one has boots that let him walk on walls instead of a sword that shoots a beam when you're at full health etc.

>I really don't care about upholding a lot of the "Sacred Cows" of OSR that people bring up if it gets in the way of my enjoyment
Then your interest lies somewhere else than OSR.

Yes, brother, we must persevere in proclaiming the holy truth of The One True AD&D™ as published by TSR, inc.

The old school way to differentiate a character from other characters is through action and adventure, not by choosing from a list of 'feats' or 'powers'. The character is what he does.

there is an easy solution here, which is recognising that the thief class was a mistake, and removing it.

Yeah that's basically roleplaying to me.
That's why I said "aside from that", and gave an example of mechanical difference that isn't really player controlled.

This guy knows what's up.

>not by choosing from a list of 'feats' or 'powers'.
But a big differentiating factor is class, which is literally a list of powers and statistics.

Choosing from, say, three core classes during character generation is not the same thing as getting to choose additional powers as the character gains levels.

It's not the same but it also proves that characters aren't differentiated by just action and adventure, but by player-driven mechanical choices.

You can't say "oldschool means X and not Y" then when confronted with Y in oldschool material say "uh well that doesn't count."

not really, most other systems just don't work for me

too reliant on the player having any roleplaying ability whatsoever, which in reality is near nonexistent in most people

now you're just nitpicking

Could I use it for a more vanilla fantasy setting?

I like this concept but I feel like it should be tied to some kind of narrative mechanic.

Only because if you're going to say that the Fighter should be the only one getting their hands on special weapons and armor, what about the thief? Does the Thief get special privileges when it comes to using invisibility cloaks or masks that let you change your face? What about the Cleric and Wizard? Do they get any special items?

Seems unusual to make an edge case for the Fighters but nobody else.

That was just an example. I'm not saying only fighters get magic items. I AM saying that magic items are a good way for any character to feel different then another character of the same class. Fighters mechanically, in my opinion, don't really need to be buffed.

Submitting Maze Rats. Has a really fast OSR-style system, but the main plus is the 88 random tables that cover most stuff you'd encounter in a fantasy sandbox, so you can just generate stuff as you go.

>It's not the same but it also proves that characters aren't differentiated by just action and adventure
Alright. Let me rephrase then to maybe make you get it better.

There are no mechanics to differentiate characters of the same class other than ability scores, equipment and experience level. It's the player's playing of the character and the adventures that the character embarks on that make the difference.

It's very easy to break that conscious design by introducing feats that are awarded by gaining experience.

I had some players that weren't the best at roleplaying, especially when they're making level 1 fighting-doods, so I added this table to character creation. Gave them something to work with that made them distinct that didn't take too long.

>Seems unusual to make an edge case for the Fighters but nobody else.
It's literally been part of D&D from day one - fighters get magic swords, the other classes don't, and magic swords can be way fancier and more powerful with more features and special powers than other weapons.

>too reliant on the player having any roleplaying ability whatsoever
That's just bullshit. It doesn't even have to be in-character roleplaying. Just playing the game and doing stuff is enough.

>There are no mechanics to differentiate characters of the same class other than ability scores, equipment and experience level.

Races
Sub-classes
Kits

World of the Lost? Probably not. It has too much gonzo that is inherent with it. I mean, the main 'dungeon' is a scientific lab with the possibility of time travelers. There are dinosaurs and robots and crashed UFOs and pteronadon-people and zombies...

However, the city generator is a great tool to build a jungle-kingdom in any setting. Its worth a look through, at the least.

>I feel like it should be tied to some kind of narrative mechanic.
D&D is highly gamist. It's not supposed to make any narrative sense. There are a lot of things that "don't make sense" in D&D if you don't view it purely as a game.

Dumb question, how Advanced WAS Advanced D&D?

>mechanical differences and role-playing are exclusive and opposing forces

really makes u think

>Races
>Sub-classes
>Kits

Races ARE classes, though, and what are these sub-classes and kits of which you speak?

Let's rephrase again because apparently you enjoy semantics.

There are no mechanics to differentiate characters of the same type other than ability scores, equipment and experience level.

There's a reason why it was designed like that.

Besides at the time of kits D&D was already happily on its way to becoming a plot-driven railroad RPG like it is today. In other words not old school.

All the gonzo stuff is literally trapped inside a forcefield, so you could still play this in an otherwise regular fantasy world.

>Don't fighters normally amass a bunch of cool weapons?
Unfortunately it takes AD&D to make different weapons really matter instead of "largest damage die you can handle" and well, AD&D weapon vs armor tables. As it is there's no real reason to carry, say, a short sword instead of a long one without going into implementing stuff that isn't in all OSR rulesets like maneuvering room, different damage types and the like.

I sure hope the only RPG you play is core Searchers of the Unknown.

They're not opposing forces but if you introduce new mechanics to the game it's going to change how the game plays. In this case introducing a feat system like in 3.PF is a radical change.

It was called "Advanced" because compared to the original, it was VERY advanced. The original was (from what I know) more of a board game with simple mechanics.

So compared to it's predecessors, it was very advanced, although as more games came out, it was run of the mill.

>a plot-driven railroad RPG like it is today
Tarnowski pls.

Moldvay pls.

It was OD&D with pretty much all of the supplementary rules, unlike Basic, which was OD&D with only a very few of them.

>mfw I got college credit for running a AD&D campaign to completion

DMDavid has a nice (ongoing) series about the development of AD&D.

It's not too advanced compared to basic, it's just really fiddly. System shock. Exceptional strength. Resurrection survival chance. Alignment languages. Psionics chances. Multi-classing. Dual-classing. At least 6 attribute minimums/maximums per race. Weapon speed. New spells.

AD&D 1e dwarves and elves get bonuses to saving throws and adjustments to ability score, as well as infravision. There literally are mechanics to differentiate two fighters, and one of them is race.

Why are you still arguing with that retard?

It's really not that difficult, some people ITT are purist faggots who don't understand that characterization, mechanical complexity and even the edition of DnD you run OSR with doesn't mean it isn't OSR. You can run fucking DnD 4e as OSR with some changes.

OSR is;
>Exploration based
>Time & Resource management
>High lethality
>Characterization & Control of Character through play

OSR is not;
>Race as class
>Class based at all
>Mechanically derived
>Sacred Cow(s)

>It was called "Advanced" because compared to the original, it was VERY advanced. The original was (from what I know) more of a board game with simple mechanics.

How often do people shill their retroclone systems ITT?

>opinions

>more opinions

Arguing about what is OSR is pointless. Everybody needs to cut down on the stop liking what I don't like stuff.
But having said that, I totally understand feeling a little fatigue from all the 3e/PF that's been showing up in the threads lately. Some people come to OSR wanting to experience the way things used to be because they genuinely like that play model, while others seem to only be here because they want to take a few bits back to bloated "character build" land.

Storytime?

I'd say it comes up at least once per thread. There are, however, plenty of people who shill systems for free since they like them.

There's me, Ruinations guy, Thief-world guy, Wolfpacks & Wintersnow girl, Arsenal of the Warrior Princess guy, and I dunno who else on the creator side.

b-but The One True AD&D™

Not often. showed the previous version a few threads ago, one guy kept showing his LotFP-based thieves-only game, The Rogue March, which sadly I absolutely don't have the time to playtest because it looked interesting and my friend also has a deep love for Thief games, but he ain't got the time either.

There was also some user with rules for his urban campaign in a kinda Sigil-type city but explicitly urban-themed, with mafia and shit. It was called Garden something.

If anyone shills their own retroclone they usually also post a pdf for it.

Yeah, see, your big issue here is that your fighter gets a pittance of special abilities. You should really consider something more like the Thief in The Complete Warlock, where you get a bunch of abilities that are gated off by level so you actually get something relevant. Just make sure that it's less broken than that Samurai class that Playing at the World posted on their blog.

Also, those abilities are wildly out of balance with eachother - Cleave gives an extra attack, but Warcry gives a 50%ish chance of beating an entire encounter outright, Charge is just outright broken, Healing Balm is a trap option, Tooth & Nail is ridiculously situational...

Also, just FYI, but you might want to reconsider putting stuff into Healing Balm that a character could conceivably just take a turn off doing. Carry a bunch of Jack Daniel's-brand healing potions into the dungeon, if you catch my drift. Or, more darkly, make use of your "sex" option after a combat encounter.
Always consider what you're encouraging with your mechanics.

Oh right, also Lamentations of the Prom Queen guy and other stuff people already mentioned.

>Yeah, see, your big issue here is that your fighter gets a pittance of special abilities.

As opposed to most games where they don't get any?

The thing is, though, that if you're going to give them abilities in the first place then you might as well do it right.

Having the same pool of abilities at first level and twentieth is the same kind of chucklefuckery that you get in 5E - by its very nature, the stuff you're getting at level 20 is the last thing you wanted!

Also, having a small amount of abilities means that situational abilities will be completely ignored in favor of the guaranteed ones. See also the Sorcerer and Wizard in 3E, where the Sorcerer needs to take very general spells since they're stuck with them forever but the Wizard is free to take all kinds of situational one-off bullshit since they know no limits.

Also, I just really like the idea of what The Complete Warlock and that dude who wrote that one Samurai article did.

It's really not though.

What good sci-fi OSR systems are there?