What's supposed to happen once the body of a lich has been completely destroyed?

Oh right, lastly, it's canonical that you can have a non spellcaster Lich, yeah they often forget about crap like this, but in effect there's a fucking Lich that basically walked in on a Necromancer's Ritual and counterspelled it unto himself and ended up fullblown undead, wrote a book about it and caused a massive influx of Necromancy, that, and the fact that it's the Lich RITUAL that the spellcaster needs to perform to become a Lich, the target is the one the who makes the connection to the negative energy plane thus becoming undead, so if that target is anyone else but the spellcaster, it might still work.

Still, stealing Lich rituals is some OP shit the DM doesn't like so at best, it's better just to justify it for players who may have spell-like abilities or supernatural ones that work at the CL required to become a Lich, thus making it applicable.

But you know, if it happens then the fucking Magic-gods probably did it, they like to see that sort of thing happen, just because.

There's also nothing wrong with stealing the secrets to Lichdom, either through a career of Necro-busting, or findign the literally mass published Netherese tomes on the subject, like holy fuck, there were so many in NWN and shadowfell, shit was the most common thing you could find, and it's even easier if you rob a Phylactery completely intact before it could be used, that monster manual shit is outright misleading when they publish it, and then redo the whole thing in later books and even provide mutliple examples man.

Lastly, any lich, doesn't matter what, can become a Demi-lich.

Pray you never meet a Suel Demilich, that's an instant fucking loss right there.

What was the Lich ritual in 1e and 2e?

Dragon Magazine #26, here we go.

Van richten's Guide to Lichdom did this, but didn't have the level drain resulted by becoming undead, and there was a century based maintenance cost.

There was a lot of support material for Liches that related to them being evil overall, at least until Archliches were shown in spelljammer I think.

You could say something like "the old body disintegrates into a swirling pile of ash in the shape of the bad guy and drifts away to congeal somewhere else back into a solid form" or whatever.

Or just override the dnd writers

Additionally, Ricky dick didn't detail the ingredients as much as the older version did for the Posion you drink on the full moon after you've enchanted your crap on the ritual site next to your Phylactery, and the other crap.

Here's a bit on the mention of the need of a demon, Van Richten also brings this up on the Origins of the Lich, hinting Orcus being the one who started the trend, and Accerak also employed a Demon in the TOH, though I forgot whether it was ascension related or just to fuck with him because it was his dad.

Here's the bit on "I accidentally Lichdom"

And then the "Stole your ascension guy."

Fuck that's so dumb I love it

>Baelnorm
Now, are those just good liches or are they some sort of positive energy equivalent?

Because I think a magical life extension based on a connection to the positive energy plane instead of negative could be interesting.

I'm reminded of some outsider that was an incorporeal positive energy being that would possess people to experience the thrill of combat. They'd provide a host with their fighting experience and healing abilities but the healing could build up into extra temporary hit points and eventually just an explosion of energy and they'd sometimes forget to mention that last element.

>are they some sort of positive energy equivalent?
Mummies are positive energy, and Deathless (venerated elven ancestors, from Eberron) are positive energy.
Can't recall any other positive energy undead.

Baelnorm are, incidentally, also elven. Pretty sure they're negative energy though.
They're good aligned and they guard forests or libraries or something, IIRC.

Literally unplayable except in meme deck.
Would rather play Atomy/10

Nope, they're just Seldarine approved liches that look after Libraries, guard old ancestral crypts, keep the horrors in Myth Dranor from escaping, or hide Dirty Elf Fuckups. So basically, the gods using their "+5 to Avoid alignment shift checks only they get."

They're usually found in royal Elven bloodlines with the blessings of the deities, or places of knowledge Like candlekeep if I recall. They're often Elves that have more or less reached the end of their lifeline and are already Lichlike in terms of typical mechanical behavior.

Yeah, I recall it too, I think it was in deities and Demigods. There's like 2 types of positive enrgy based undead, one's a guardian of crypts and I forgot what the other couple were.

Well, I definitely think there's some potential there for combining the ideas if you play it right.
Play up the less "positive" elements of the plane of positive energy like the energy overloads.

That's Ragnorra tier stuff which leads into Shub-niggurathy shenanigins, and D&D's a reality cut off from Yog-sothoth (because legal issues and the Alignment system, but to this day, they're still thirsty for it and have never stopped dropping blatant hints towards their original intentions, it's a long story.)

Most Baelnorms have Phylacteries but some literlaly end up that way via divine ritual approved by the Seldarin and have no Phylacteries. Fuggin Elves.

Isn't the far realms basically that sort of stuff?

>Upon transformation into a Suel lich, the essence of the wizard is converted to negative energy that needs a human body to inhabit.
>The essence of the lich ages the body at three times the normal rate, burning it out after a short time.
>Each time a Suel lich gains a level, burns out a host, or is reduced to zero hit points, it must find a new body.

>At this time, the essence of the lich must take a host with Hit Die or levels at least equal to the lich’s level minus 15.
>For example, a 19th level Suel lich requires the body of at least a 4th level human.
>If the victim is unable to resist or gives his or her body willingly, no saving throw is allowed against the transformation.
>If the victim is able to resist, a saving throw vs. death magic at -1 is allowed to resist the takeover.
>Failure displaces and utterly destroys the life force of the victim; it cannot be raised, resurrected, or even restored by a wish spell.
>If the host body is destroyed, the lich has one hour to inhabit another body or its spirit disperses into nothingness.
>While in this form, a dispel evil or holy word can destroy it forever.

>Pray you never meet a Suel Demilich,
How's that supposed to work?

Luckily they're all dead as there was only 6-7 of them in existence, but Dragon Magazine published a 3.5 update. Hold on.

...

Suel Liches basically turned their Souls into Living negative energy, but, nasty fact is that positive energy is everywhere, sunlight gives it off, the living give it off, it's something commonly stated in many instances, so, unless they were on the plane of negative energy, then they're not lasting long outside of a body.

But you know, the Suel Lich still has Time on it's side, so there's the crop of salient abilities it gets, power rituals and the works, and Once it's a Demilich it's secure without need of losing a body, and even then, it has the horrid Demilich ability off designating 100 undead with it's old Lich template, which ammounts to a horrible encounter, I mean one of these things trying to rot a PC out is bad enough, 2, a nightmare, 3, hell 4, oh fug and beyond. What's more, as far as I know with Demilich fights, you've got the fight on the astral plane, the physical fight, then you've got to hope your not starved for spells when it tries to posses you to avoid death, barring the possibility of contingency to teleport it off to viable body in stasis.

I think the Suel Lich also qualifies for Incorporeal creature PrC's too, which could be a nightmare, topped off with Enhanced undead templates and the like.

What's more, is that there's a really nasty thing about Suel Liches, in that, technically, in theory, they'd also be the only creatures that still technically have a Soul to store, as it's negative energy.

You ever heard of a Dry Lich from the Walker In the waste's PrC class? well, they're basically Tomb Kigns with the ability to make Salt mummies, create pocket sand and have an aura that incurs drought, dehydration and turns everything into desertstuffs, with the weakness of water on them working as holy water.

The upside to them is that they get cheaper Phylactery construction (Possesion of BoVD makes this even cheaper) But the Phylacteries are non renewable because they're canopic jars, and because you'd need organs to make them, and it's stated this canopic jars contain the Liches Lifeforce and the rejuvanation time is longer than average Liches-

Now then, Suel Liches still have that Lifeforce to spare, as it's negative energy, and, everytime they posses a body- They get a new set of Organs, so, technically, they actually meet the requirements to become Dry Liches, AND ensure a limitless supply of phylacteries, though they would be around epic level and above to achieve this, nevermind the fact they get a free body from returning to their phylacteries, as Negative energy is ever generous with how it easily generates, so they've got TWO options when they die, Posses a bitch, or return home and wait a week or so to regen with a body near-it's expiry before they pop in.

reminder that 'good liches' are FR exclusive bullshit, and should be ignored

This just sounds like a hassel. The reason I'd want to even become a lich is because it is very hassel free. You live forever, most dont need any sustinence, your basically indestructable ect

>The reason I'd want to even become a lich is because it is very hassel free.
Pretty sure people only became Suel liches by accident or out of desperation/necessity.
But even normal lichdom is kind of a hassle. You have to routinely bargain with fiends to get larva, or the spell falls apart.

Acererak's body crumbled from lack of maintenance.
He didn't need his body, but only because he was ancient/powerful.

Yeah I know, regular Lichdom and all it's perks are where it's at, though I would like to see a return of 2e's Elemental Liches, if a variant, featured in a Temple of Elemental Evil module, though one can make it very complex when the concepts of Lichthralls get mixed in.

Suel Liches were an oddity, but shit son, that Fear Aura. additionally, there's the matter of their touch attack which is still viable to opponents who have negative energy resistance or whatever, because it also does fire damage. A known type of Lich used item in 1e was a blackfire wand, which acted as a channel for a Lich to use it's touch attack, as well, what comes out of a wand, though without paralysis, and it worked off of the Lich's connection the Negative Energy plane, so theoretically, it could deliver Touch attacks that originated from such a basis, I.E the range of Touch based attacks available to a Pale Master.

I'd have to say it'd be a matter that is better built upon, because no one uses Suel Liches often, but it's probably got a lot of uses, coupled with Salient abilities, Age Categories presented in Ravenloft, power rituals, and the prospect of Demilichdom, in addition to whatever base spellcaster it was before it's transformation, along with coupled spells, and magical items, It'd probably use a contingency set to activate if it's in it's incorporeal state for longer than 50 minutes to teleport it to a place where it keeps bodies to possess. It'd get it's bodies from the adventurers it beats in the various means of magical or non-magical imprisonment available to it, here, the Leadership feat might come in handy if one was to attract bodies, or it has a lair dedicated to capture.

Might as well become an Incantifer, with that mindset.