"You didn't earn any XP because you didn't kill anything"

>participation awards

It's not even a game anymore, it's just you and your friends whacking each other off!

Session-based doesn't mean handholding, what I meant is a more abstract version because tracking XP is so tedious and makes levelling up take absurdly long periods of time.

typically when my players accomplish like 2 to 4 or possibly even 5 major objectives I like to level up, but the point is that the story has to come first and I want my players to be able to scale in a way that feels natural

I know, I wasn't being serious, user.

I had a DM that awarded XP individually for kills. As in, if you land the killing blow on a monster, YOU and ONLY YOU are the one who gets the XP for fighting it.

I tried explaining to the DM how completely fucking stupid that is and he just said "that's how we like to play," so I let them play how they wanted without me.

5e's Milestones alternative is a really good idea along those lines.

My group does milestones and it's amazing.

We were never a terribly kill-happy group (with the exception of one player) and milestones makes it feel like we aren't being penalized by taking a non-violent approach.

>There are far too many attractive women try to get on my dick at the flgs, let's play at your house

>if you land the killing blow on a monster, YOU and ONLY YOU are the one who gets the XP for fighting it.

>if you land the killing blow on a monster, YOU and ONLY YOU are the one who gets the XP for fighting it.

>if you land the killing blow on a monster, YOU and ONLY YOU are the one who gets the XP for fighting it.

So he was cool with kill stealing? At that point I would just PK the rest of the party as soon as I got high enough level.

>milestones makes it feel like we aren't being penalized by taking a non-violent approach.
That shouldn't be the case even if you're using XP. It doesn't matter how you overcome a challenge, by killing it, talking to it, or sneaking passed it. You get XP for it.

>Said nobody ever

Depends on how you get XP. "Quest XP" is totally a "participation award," but Encounter XP or XP for Gold is less so -- you aren't guaranteed to get X amount just for showing up.

I've done OSR dungeon crawls where we came out of a three hour run with like 100 XP to split four ways -- and lucky for us two party members bit the dust or it'd have been a six way split. It was just poor luck that we wound up not locating any of the serious loot before a random encounter's reaction roll came up hostile and we had to get scarce.

Isn't that what this thread is about?

No, Op here, I was quoting something I once heard some faggot of a DM say after a game of pathfinder.

>At that point I would just PK the rest of the party as soon as I got high enough level.
I wasn't about to stick around and try it. Plus I was playing a battlefield control focused Wizard, so while I was tossing out movement denial, status effect, and Save-or-Suck spells that made the party's lives easier, arguably making my character the most valuable party member, I was getting fuck all XP.

Second, its how ive always played- "What's that dwarf, youve realised why your mother never loved you? Thats level 3 for you"

>You didn't earn any XP because you killed everything

Meh. So long as the game continues running and the CR stays in scale with the party, I'm not too miffed if we're still developing our characters via loot.

If you killed everything so easily then clearly they weren't really worth any XP

Y'all niggers forget that nowhere in the rules does it say that killing grants experience.

>Y'all niggers forget that nowhere in the rules does it say that only killing grants experience.
FTFY

Actually, last time I read over the 3e handbook, it went out of its way to avoid mentioning killing.

Yup. 3e gave you exp RAW for ,,solving encounters".

Do you want a party of murderhobos ?

Because that's what you're going to get if you do XP that way.

I generally prefer to just award XP on a per-session basis, based on how much I feel the party accomplished. Either that or just level up the party when I feel it's appropriate.

Did the DM say he recently played Undertale?

>SKULLS FOR THE THRONE OF BONE
Should'a been Bones for the Bone Throne.

My DM does this. This is our experience log from Curse of Strahd. Playing for five hours every week and getting 0-100xp is just awful. Everyone is still level 4 after just starting at level 3.

>still using xp
>Not just giving them a level when they reach story milestones

You're mom can sit on my Bone Throne

>story milestones for levels
>equal rewards to the party for arbitrary story progression
>zero rewards for taking initiative, presenting good ideas or a good character presentation

There are people that are actually doing this.

>treating xp as a reward system
That's what loot is for

>Xp is no longer a reward

They're both rewards you dumb fuck. XP gets you the cool spells and class features and all that shit and items help enhance it.

Typically in RPGs you need both.

level is just that: the level of play you've reached

XP is your progress marker, not your reward

This.
It has always been like this in the vast majority of games.
I had a DM do to me what OP is talking about.
>3.5, party consists of monk (dm's gf), cleric (dm's bro), bard (my bro), warlock (dmpc) and warblade (me)
>pulling the carriage we are in (I was beefy, alright?)
>notice someone being accosted in the road some 200' down by 2... goblins, I think
>OOC this was a new player+pc, this was how they were introduced
>I moved 40' full stop with wagon, continue running
>new pc getting ass kicked around the clock, is a elven rogue against 2 goblins with class levels
>party has no strong ranged options except for the dmpc warlock who begins blasting goblins
>continue running, but goblins are both dead by the time we close the gap
>introductions are made, she gets on the carriage
>end of session, DM gives xp to rogue and warlock only
>que paso, DM?
>"Well, only the rogue and warlock were involved in the battle."
>because you started it while we were incredibly far away, against odds the rogue could not prevail against alone, in a terrible set up
>"Well, other characters could have used ranged weapons."
I left the game that week, the last straw in a number of issues I had with the GM.

Good ideas and roleplay are rewards on their own. XP a just a counter how long you have been playing these characters.

>zero rewards for taking initiative, presenting good ideas or a good character presentation
5e has a different system to handle that: Inspiration.

Lots of other games have similar benefits for good play that aren't XP as well.

You'd know this if you played something other than Pathfinder.

>progress is not a reward

>XP as a reward for clocking time in a game
>getting levels because you exist until a certain point in the game

Suddenly even my worst gaming experiences seem better by not having such an idiot run a game I'm playing at.

Never played Pathfinder fampai
If the system doesn't reward efforts and success, then it is garbage

Combat XP's basically just the same thing. If your GM gives you X encounters per day, then you're getting X/[party size] XP no matter what you do.

Oh, you do something cool and unique? Congratulations, you earn [Y] XP! Now you're out of sync with the party, halting play for everyone while you apply your level up only for the rest of the group to grind to a halt an hour later because now THEY have enough XP to dip warlock or whatever.

No thanks. Not my games. Shared XP, custom loot OR tailored items in stores as rewards.

Then what have you played, because your statements have been circular, thus far.
In some games, XP is the reward for overcoming the challenges before you, and represents you being tested and growing from it.
It is, however, a very grainy system, and I do not particularly like it. In it's place, I use a few other ideas and rewards, usually very much in character and insetting, such as status, companions/serving men, and the like.

In a traditional dungeon crawl, getting XP for leaving the dungeon with treasure IS a reward for your character accomplishing his/her goals. Because the whole game is about crazy and/or desperate people crawling into holes full of scary monsters and stealing their shit.

>the story has to come first
Yeah, fuck player agency! They should be happy to listen to me tell them a story for hours on end!

>the bait, for user
>user's bait

>>XP as a reward for clocking time in a game
>>getting levels because you exist until a certain point in the game

literally the opposite of what I said

you don't get to move on to the next level until you beat the current level, after all

thrones for the throne bone

>>progress is not a reward

progress is a challenge

good players find challenges rewarding

Story-driven campaigns suck. Characterization should emerge naturally.

... and ?

>no it's not a reward for existing
>it's just a reward for existing AND going from point A to point B

XP should be for participating in the game, playing the character, making choices, interacting with the fucking environment as to collaborate on the storytelling. If I get XP because I killed something or because we "beat the current level" it shows how much the GM has no idea what they're doing.
It's one thing of overcoming a challenge or beating a goal and another thing for the GM to go "LEVEL COMPLETE! YOU GET LVL!"

I'll go and recommend the way Stars Without Number does XP: You get rewarded for completing work assignements or certain milestones you have agreed before with the GM, not because you reached the next chapter or shit like that.

Progression is a reward. It is the reward that your character actually got something out of it all as an adventurer rather than stagnate. And you should even if it's the tiniest amount of XP, be awarded XP

>It is the reward that your character actually got something out of it all

that sounds like loot to me

>for managing to trick the two warring tribes into a agreeable peace and benefitting all the kingdom, you get armor
>no, I'm not giving you any experience for that elaborate stunt asshole
>your character doesn't progress, you get fucking armor
>that's the only thing you can get out of solving a situation and progressing the story

You need to get your brain checked.

As DM I'd award both. Coin and XP

>for solving the conflict, by any means, you get to advance onto the next scenario

>the next scenario will present you with much greater challenges, but you will also have greater abilities to face them

the game gets harder as your level gets higher, but your character gets some new tools to help you deal with the increased difficulty

if you fail to resolve the scenario, you don't get XP, and you don't advance--the game doesn't get more difficult, and you don't get new tools to deal with it

seems pretty straightforward to me

>treating TTRPGs like glorified puzzles

I am so glad I've never been and never will be in one of your boring TellTale RPGs. I'd rather actually have something resembling a living world to go around instead of progressively more difficult mazes and get rewarded for solving your ebin crossword.

I award a fixed amount of XP per session. Seeing as XP doubles as spendable reroll points in my system, it works just fine.

>Tells party you're going to make a character that's near mute, they approve.

>Send a draft of the character to the group email

>One group member flips the fuck out at you for having "a mute character"

Even in that case it would incentivize the party to chose combat over other ways of solving problems.

>halting play for everyone while you apply your level up
>he doesn't encourage their players to plan their levels ahead of time
>he doesn't wait for a night of rest and reflection before applying level ups

It's an archaic version of the "skulls for the skull throne" phrase that I read before. Obviously overlooked because it has one more syllable and doesn't play off the repetitious theme of the sayings (e.i., BLOOD for the BLOOD god and SKULLS for the SKULL throne).

Any good player has a build specc'd out to level 20 anyway

>"You didn't earn any XP because you didn't fuck anything"

>planning your "builds"
>playing systems that are about planning your "builds"

He does realize that you're expected to be level 8-9 by the time you fight Strahd right?

Because my group did this same book and we just barely managed to beat Strahd as level 9 adventurers.

>Treating levels/XP like a reward
>When loot already exists
>In a game where the wizard will always take the initiative and present good ideas because magic
Recipe for disaster familia.

Holy shit dude.
Either I'm getting some serious deja vu or you have no other argument than "loot is the only reward, XP is arbitrary."

Also
>I only play D&D
There is your creative problem famalam

its okay man, you can probably plan out your anime girl build if you played a better kind of caster.

>/v/irgins are this upset at the idea of not getting muh progression good boy points even when the end result is the same.

MGE PLEASE GO AND STAY GO

>Why would I do that? It doesn't make my murderhobo any stronger!

>being okay with getting XP whenever mistah Jiem feels like giving it to you and very much not in proportion to your work like a little cuckboy

Good player!

XP is arbitrary mate, it's only a number that tells you how far you are from getting to the next level of play, nothing more, nothing less.

At least if you get a new sword that shoots lightning or a wagon with two horses, the options that you and the party has opens significantly, which can also help you to overcome future trials that stand in your way.

All EXP does is say "I've survived this many encounters" and "I'm this close to getting my next level," which does nothing for your character in the present as it's not really a resource that can be accessed during game.

Not to mention, it serves only power gamers who want to wring as much EXP from every single threat in their path (and some outside of it) just to get themselves that much closer to their next level, which means that they're not focusing on the story, the NPCs, the quest, or anything else happening in-game.

I mean, EXP has its place but there's a reason why its given at the end of the session.

What's the point of even playing a tabletop if your only goal is to see the numbers on your sheet go up a bit?

Seeing your actions alter the world around you in minor but significant ways while hanging out with your friends should be its own reward.

>I can't the system if a human is awarding me xp based on what I actually achieve
>He doesn't know that the dm already decides on what you encounter and controls when you level up regardless of if you use xp or not
You don't actually play ttrpg so why are you here?

*can't game the system

>XP should be for participating in the game, playing the character, making choices, interacting with the fucking environment as to collaborate on the storytelling
user, you are projecting.
I said overcoming challenges, not killing something. Consider that in older editions of D&D, you got xp for class specific goals, and succeeding or failing at party goals.
Making a choice and seeing it thru is overcoming a challenge.
Interacting with a world that can be hostile, or requires you to press your will upon it is overcoming a challenge. A challenge is not merely a battle, or telling someone what to do.
>bait continues

>the dm already decides on what you encounter and controls when you level up regardless of if you use xp or not

Wow, those railroading DMs really screwed you up, huh?
As a DM, I lay down encounters and adventure sites over the map, fill 'em with treasure and creatures, set up some rumors of what's where, and let players go at it.
I don't control where they go or what they encounter, that's up to the tables. I don't control whether they fight it or not, that's up to the reaction check and their skill at handling the encounter.
Them getting XP is entirely out of my hands once play begins. It's up to them to locate the treasure, acquire it without dying, and get it back out safely. If they do that, 1 GP = 1XP.
That's why it's a game, and not "a story" that I'm telling them while they roll some meaningless dice.

This whole thread is bait, but it's entertaining bait at least.

My DM straight up said to me "This isn't Scooby Doo mysteries" when I asked him if we could get exp for avoid combat.
He was pretty garbage honestly.

You placed those monsters and treasure, thereby assigning an xp value for each hook

>giving XP for individual acts
>not just for completing objectives

It helps keep players focused on what matters instead of picking fights like psychos.

BUT THEY CHOSE WHICH HOOK AND MONSTER, THEREFORE THEIR FATE IS ON THEIR OWN! I AM FREE FROM JUDGEMENT OR BIAS!

This senpai speaks the truth desu.

Bait is entertaining when it is subtle enough to lead to better discussion.
The bait so far has been rotten and easily sussed out.

Yet I have no idea which party will encounter what. When I sit down to play a session, I may know what's in the world, but I don't know what they'll encounter, or what will happen.
Also, they don't get an "xp value for each hook." They get XP for recovering lost riches from the wilderness. How they acquire those riches is up to them, whether they fight something for it, sneak past something, talk something into giving it to them, or just find it in some dark hole.
The more gold they recover, the more XP they get -- the only thing I can control is how much gold exists in the world, and where it's hidden. They might go through a session and get nothing, or they might stumble on some buried hoard that I was sure nobody's ever find and get massive XP.
I don't know, and once play starts I have virtually no control over it. It's great.

>that I was sure nobody's ever going to find

Is it so hard to understand that different DMs can do things differently?

>that I was sure nobody's ever going to find
I stopped placing caches and other hidden cool stuff because my PCs never looked for them

Fortunately, I play 4e, so passive perception means they get a hint, but there is usually some pressing business I put to them so they must choose between loot and PROBLEMS, like that horde of creatures currently beating down the door of the hall they are in.

I feel you, user. It's why I like running OSR, because players there expect that there will be hidden stuff and will pay attention and listen for clues and things.

Passive perception can help with this in more modern systems, yeah. But it's also why they don't try to find it themselves, because the system tells them that their characters will do it for them, so it's a waste of time for the player to look out for stuff.

/v/ out

user, passive perception doesn't find shit for you, it lets you know something is off and bears actual investigating.
You still need to approach whatever you noticed and put in the personal time and effort to uncover it.
>Out of the corner of your eye, you notice the gradient on the wall doesn't exactly match the other rooms of the castle you are in
is not the same as
>You notice a secret door in the wall
The reason people don't search for secret doors and such is because by the rules, you literally need to individually search every space increment, using a lot of time that you may not have, for usually no reason at all, because most gms trap their loot rather than hide it.