I hate it that in D&D fights feel so inconsequential. They happen very often...

Dungeon Fantasy.

WFRP2

GURPS.

Any wound could potentially be fatal, someone holding a knife to your throat is an actual threat and not something you can go 'haha knives only do 1d4 and I have 150hp' to.

Apocalypse World. My player do their best to avoid fight

Rolemaster. Single crit can ruin a character or kill him. Nerve damage is permanent unless healed with the appropriate spell, which only 2 classes have, or treated with the appropriate skills and herbs. HP damage is just a show of how much bruising you can take before you fall over. You die from crits. You get maimed from crits. You sit there stunned from crits. Sometimes, all three. And the spell to fix each one is different. Or of course skills and herbs, though the one herb that fixes death is really rare and only fixes it if the soul is still around to be reattached. Soul departed? Well things just got really difficult.

You start taking negatives once you use up 25% of either HP or MP as you get more and more battered and weary.

Then you also have exhaustion points. No fighting for 5 minutes without a break. You need rest or you can't swing your sword.

And finally you have to parry. If you want your character to live, you have to use some of your attack bonus to protect yourself. Don't, and like any real life crazy, you die soon as you face a few too many opponents. It's really easy to hit someone that isn't defending himself. Armor doesn't make you more difficult to hit. It actually makes you easier to hit. But it makes you so much harder to crit and therefore kill.

Runequest

>though the one herb that fixes death is really rare
>not house-ruling resurrection out of the system/setting.

FATE manages to have a bit of both going on at the same time.
Short fights against minions and monsters generally only scratch your stress boxes, which recover automatically after the battle so there's no fuss over exhaustion unless your GM decides to make that an aspect and compel you for it.

On the other side of things though, massive damage ends up taken as Consequences that you can potentially have to wait several game sessions to even start healing depending on setting rules and available medical care, and Consequences leave aspects that can be invoked against you or potentially cause penalties just by their existence.

Some of the optional rules (Weapons rules mostly) push to make it so that you take Consequence wounds much more easily and thus combat becomes much more deadly and penalizing even if you win.

Dark Heresy

MERPS/Rolemaster is an old favorite. The crits are high comedy.

Riddle of Steel

Riddle of Steel. Even if you survive, you might take damage to your nervous system, or worse, have a tendon severed and/or limb lopped off.

I've personally always hacked my D&D games so that healing is scarce and the road to death is painful. A simple table for critical injuries goes a long way.

As many others have already pointed out,
old-school D&D is not only very receptive to this kind of hacking, but is also just fairly dangerous in its vanilla form, and rewards players with the wits and cleverness to avoid unnecessary combat. Definitely worth looking into, as OSR games have a surprisingly different feel from 3.P/4e/5e.

The old Fantasy Flight line of Warhammer rpgs (WFRP, Dark Heresy, etc.) is also quite good for this sort of feel. They might look mechanically different from old-school D&D, but the fundamental similarity is that they treat HP as a scare resource that is very easily lost, and not so easily regained. (Plus, they've got built-in critical injuries tables!)

If you want a more story-gamey approach, you have a couple good options as well. As has already been mentioned,
FATE and Apocalypse World (and its spin-offs, like Dungeon World) are good about giving combat meaningful consequences in their own ways.

I'll also add Dogs in the Vineyard to that list, since the way it handles the consequences of combat is very cool, but it can be unintuitive and it's maybe a little far from the vein of what you're looking for.

>Dungeon World
>good
Apocalypse World is stellar, but all of it's spin-offs are hot garbage.
They just riff AW without consideration for what made it good.

Addendum: I avoided brining up any especially complicated systems, but there are also a lot of games out there that are specifically designed to make combat as nitty and gritty as possible.

I only have enough experience with stuff like Rolemaster to know that it isn't for the faint of heart. Look into these systems only if you're up to the task of wading through their crunch. (Some people like a very crunchy system, but it's personally not to my taste.)

I can note that Riddle of Steel is pretty famous for its realistic combat system, and actually has a spiritual successor game in the works called Song of Swords. The developers for the game post here on Veeky Forums and the community around it is pretty friendly, so if you ARE interested in a system that's a bit more involved you should head over to their general thread:

There are indeed a lot of shitty spinoffs of AW, but at least Dungeon World and Monster Hearts both have some interesting ideas in them.

Personally, I found Dungeon World fun to run with a less experienced group of roleplayers, and I think it could be a useful tool to help introduce people to playing or running games—especially if their only exposure to rpgs before it is D&D.

If you don't understand how other systems work, you probably shouldn't try to sell people yours in the same post. It makes it look like only idiots play the game you play.

> I found Dungeon World fun to run with a less experienced group of roleplayers,
driving new players away from a psuedo-freeform mentality is pissing in the porridge

Are you saying you think Dungeon World DISCOURAGES creativity? 'Cause although I can understand why you'd say that, that's kind of the opposite of what it's supposed to do.

I think the trick is to come up with a system for 'wounds' separate from HP. I'm talking about an 'easy' fix for D&D not an ideal system. So, substantial hits should tick away at this wound point score which I guess should just be similar to the one you see in world of darkness.... lower wound points means detriments- like a negative to rolls etc.

Running out of HP means you can't fight. You're exhausted. HP is just... your stamina.

I don't think I'm expressing it well but anyway so my points is you've got "how tired I am" points (a hit to your armour might bruise you and make you feel shitty but it won't likely kill you.) and then you've got your "how actually hurt I am" points which are harder to lose but fuck you up if you lose em, and are harder to gain back. Healing magic restores your stamina not your wounds, though it will stop bleeding out and such. Then you require players to carry shit like first aid supplies, potions, salves, whatever.

But i mean..............im not gonna figure it out.......... :) easier to just cinematically describe things and say to a player 'you're still really weak, even though your wounds are mostly healed.' Maybe healing doesn't restore blood loss and it's difficult and imperfect.

yea easiest fix just change the magic, i guess. fuckit

So...healing surges?

>and its spin-offs, like Dungeon World
One of DW's greatest failures is removing meaningful consequences from combat, instead replacing it with easily recovered HP and the need to make up arbitrary consequences outside the scope of the game's actual rules.

Try SoS or any of the Riddle of Steel family of games like BotIT and BoB. The combat system they're all built around is almost incontrovertibly the best medieval combat game ever designed, and because the combat is so high-stakes and intense, it's never something the players engage in casually.

I play a lot of systems. Without easily-abused houserules, DnD is not a lethal system at all because it runs on video game rules.

I'd apologise for upsetting you by criticizing your favourite system, but I'm not sorry because it's not a very good one.

1) L5R. Exploding dice that allow massive damage sometimes and high lethality in general.
2) WFRP 2 Ed. It's not that fights are too rare but when one actually gets hit (that's what happens when one runs out of HP), it can cause all sorts of permanent trauma or death (those CRIT tables). And also insanity. Because it's hard to stay totally sane after being on the brink of death too often.

>DnD is not a lethal system at all because it runs on video game rules.

DnD is not a lethal system at all, because it is not a system at all.
And none of the editions run on video game rules, unless you want to make the asinine point that there are D&D video games based on the rules of one edition or another.

No. It's videogames who run on DnD-like rules.

this. it's amazing how many people don't know where hitpoints come from.

>D&D
stopped reading right there

Look at this scenario:
Quote, if you would, the section in the book that outlines why this would not be the case on a high-level martial character with a high HP pool.

No house rules.

Why did you quote my post without addressing either of my points?

As for your question: Which system?

We're talking about DnD, which system do you think?

Because the one holding the dagger is probably a high level assassin. And already having a dagger pressed to your throat means it could be a CDG.

That shit hurts, man.

If the one holding the dagger is not a threat to a demigod (since a level 20 character is supposed to be equal to someone who can tell reality to go bend over for his whims), then yeah. I don't think legendary heroes would be too perturbed by some peasant holding a dagger, a two handed sword, or a ballista to their throat.

DnD is not a system.

He's not a high-level assassin, he's a bloke with a knife. The fighter in question doesn't need to be 'a demigod' to not have to worry about said knife. If his HP is high enough there is 0 threat from having a knife held to his throat.

Video game logic.

While I almost want to agree for somewhat different reasons, it is and you're being (hopefully) intentionally obtuse.

Do you think DnD is the only PnP system with editions?

>Do you think DnD is the only PnP system with editions?
No, but DnD is the only one I'm aware of with such a massive difference in scope, intention, function, playstyle and design between almost every single one of its many editions.

And pretty much nobody is stupid enough to talk about Exalted as a system without noting the edition.

>The fighter in question doesn't need to be 'a demigod' to not have to worry about said knife. If his HP is high enough there is 0 threat from having a knife held to his throat.

If his HP is high enough to laugh at a CDG, that means he is beyond normal human limits. He can probably also kill like 10 orcs without breaking a sweat, or survive being blasted by killer spells or drinking poison, because he's just that tough.

It makes sense that such a person would laugh at the puny attempts of a witless peasant trying to murder him.

Firstly, you've just outed yourself as someone who plays a single system. GJ.

Secondly, it's fair to assume I'm talking about the most recent system.

CDG isn't in 5e.

HP does not and has never specifically modeled limb loss, blood loss and/or other specific injuries that might be lethal outside the normal flow of combat,

Old World of Darkness (Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/etc). Even the supernatural splats that have regeneration can get really fucked up. Nerf Soak and you have a really dangerous and lethal system. I once ran a modern military/special forces type campaign using a nerf-soaked OWoD ruleset and it was awesome.

>CDG isn't in 5e.

Is called shots?

Because if not, then the DM has to make shit up for "pressing knife to throat".

So what does it model? Your luck running out?

Psh no problem, this guy cant slash my throat I'm still plenty lucky.

Called shots are not in 5e either.

It's a system with less combat flexibility than fallout.

Not really. Called shots 90% of the time are just damage optimization. Which should be built into your character's capabilities and the attack roll anyway.

When you use it for something else (slowing or disarming opponents) you can already do that in 5e, so no need for called shots.

The "peasant has a dagger at your throat" thing is an edge case; it should happen out of combat, where HP doesn't matter anyway, or it should be the result of him grappling/beating you to such a low HP that he can claim he is in the position of killing you in one hit (i.e. has a dagger to your throat).

I am pretty sure that D&D 3.5, 4e, 5e, 13th Age, RoC Legend, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Dungeonslayers, Make You Kingdom, Ryuutama, Shinobigami, Apocalypse World, Dungeon World, Blades in the Dark and Maid RPG are all one and the same system.

And no, it's not fair to assume you're talking about the most recent system if it's D&D you're talking about. Especially on Veeky Forums.

It doesn't model anything in particular.
It is an abstraction.

So it's an abstraction of nothing? That's not how abstractions work.

It models how close you are to losing this fight, so it's a combination of physical health, stamina, fighting spirit, luck, and a bunch of other factors.

>It models how close you are to losing this fight,
What an incredibly vague concept.

>it's a combination of physical health, stamina, fighting spirit, luck, and a bunch of other factors.
So it's an abstraction of EVERYTHING? Why even have other stats then?

Physical health, stamina, fighting spirit, luck, and a bunch of other factors is not everything.

Me and my friend have made a campaign with custom rules and minimal magic. What magic is there requires rituals based on what spells medieval people actually used to perform (but they actually work if you do them right)
A healing ritual would require a moderate amount of physical resources you've collected, not mana regen.

>gold = xp

>a peasant should be able to kill a demigod with ease!

Why are you so dumb.

Some people just don't like videogamey systems (like D&D) with demigods running around mortals. It's more fun if everyone is within human limits.

I mean, you can have your preferences, but "heroic" systems massively outnumber "realistic" ones. It's not a phenomenon unique to D&D.

HP is an ability not to get crippling or killing blow coming from many sources. As you get bruised, lose some blood, get thrown out of balance this ability decreases.

In Vampire the Masquerade combat is deadly - except if you have Fortitude 5 or more - bevause the really bad damage made by other Vampires or Supernaturals eiter can't be soaked (except with the Fortitude Power which not everybody has) and is very slow and expensive to heal. So yea you try to avoid beeing hit by altogether.

>videogamey systems (like D&D) with demigods running around mortals
I didn't know Greek mythology was inspired by video games.

>I didn't know Greek mythology was inspired by video games.
Yeah, but just the early ones, like Space Invaders and Pac Man. Because of how old it is, Greek mythology came out way before Street Fighter.

GURPS with all the Basic Set combat rules in play, realistic rules from Martial Arts and Martial Arts - Technical Grappling alongside The Last Gasp from Alternate GURPS 2 can create a very intense combat system.

Contrary to the much mentioned Rolemaster, it is not that great for consequential fights the moment you have a gifted healer and a spellcaster, then it feels increasingly like D&D.

If you don't mind griity, very medieval fantasy, then Harnmaster. Amputations, wound infections, kill rolls. It will make any player think thrice about entering combat, unless they are heavily armored.

It's low fantasy though (but the fantasy rules are ofc easily adaptable to other game worlds).

this if you're playing duelists rather than soldiers. the iaido mechanics are a ton of fun and ever since the first time I played L5R, I've wanted to coopt the system for a Star Wars game inspired by the setting implicit to the original trilogy before the EU and prequels weighed the logic and aesthetic of the lightsaber down with all their stupid shit.

here's the system I use if an enemy scores a critical hit on a player:

after determining which body part is effected, injury is caused by type of damage: blunt damage causes the body part to be crushed, piercing damage causes organ/muscle problems, slashing damage causes the body part to sail off in an arc, heat damage causes nerve damage, etc. bleeding ensues depending on the wound. worn armor obviously has some influence on the type of wound they sustain as well, i.e. sufficient armor on your arm can reduce a critical slash from the limb being severed to a vital nerve being severed or muscle damage.

bleeding and similar effects can be stopped with low level magic, but 6th level or higher healing is required to do something like reconstruct nerves and bones or reattach a limb, and in the case of a severed limb obviously the body part must have been severed extremely recently and be present to be mended. a permanent injury hosts any number of debilitating effects, depending on what and where the injury is. after permanence, a magical prosthetic would be required to fully restore the organ.

this system has made fights much more interesting than they were in my last campaign, as there is a 2.5%< chance that an enemy will sustain a critical on a character injuries happen almost every fight. right now in my campaign one of the PCs is missing his right hand(ripped off and swallowed by an alligator man), and one of the rogues has depth perception disadvantage due to taking a bolt in the eye when isolated from the rest of the party.

In Exalted, is a mortal holding a dagger to your throat a threat?

In GURPS, if you're playing a Supers game with high powerlevel and someone is a superman-copy, is a dagger a threat?

Because that's the powerlevel you have at level 20

This. Dungeon World is complete shit. Glad Veeky Forums finally realized that, given that two years ago it would knob-slobber the game at any opportunity.

>In Exalted, is a mortal holding a dagger to your throat a threat?

No one else is talking about Exalted though.

What the fuck does that have to do wit what i said

Surges are harder to gain back, fuck you up if you lose them, and can't be restored by healing magic. They're pretty much the system you described.

This.

How the fuck did no one mention Rogue Trader?

Well now that you've brought it up you might as well talk about it and how it's related to the matter.

Someone said dark heresy and that plays in the same setting with the same rules, you just play different characters.

Consider movies like, say, Saving Private Ryan. There's plenty of badasses in it, but every single one of those characters could be fucked over by a single bullet. Now, having people like from Greek mythology heroes running around would make that movie not work at all, it would make a huge mess of the tone and message. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

This is down to your DM, not the system itself.

We're currently playing D&D and have very few fights, mostly roleplay and logistics. The few fights that do happen are extremely deadly and until now we're been playing without any healing so if you're badly cut up it will take a few days of rest to heal. Each fight has huge consequences and is very high stakes us-or-them.

Thankfully we have a cleric now...

Are you brain dead?
Do seriously believe HP in DnD represent actual bodily health?

Yes. Warhammer Fantasy RPG has great combat. In our first adventure, one of the party took a critical, lost an eye and became an alcoholic.

In my third game of running whfrp this Happened.

It's deadly, it's gory, it's hilarious. Great game.

I've always had problems with the way combat works in D&D, particularly hit points, which I see as very inelegant;

>Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck.

So as DM, when you're describing combat you have to basically just make shit up based on your own idea of what all these stupid numbers represent. The goblin did 2 damage to the fighter; does that mean he grazed his shoulder, or the fighter blocked but doesn't feel good about it? I also hate that damage doesn't really do anything until it causes death; I don't feel like a giant with 1 hp left should be as dangerous on its turn as a giant with 100hp. Whatever, these are all pretty common complaints.

So anyway, I made my own system, which has been fun and which I'm quite proud of. There are no hit points; instead attacks cause Wounds, Injuries, or Death. Wounds weaken a character's ability to perform certain actions depending on the type of wound, Injuries give a chance of automatically losing actions on your turn, and Death means you're dead. A target has to be Wounded before they can be Injured, and has to be both before an attack can cause Death.

This has made combat fairly lethal, since if a character is left vulnerable with some bad luck they could die to any attack, and makes defensive characters a lot more important than in D&D. It also means the players get to think about how they want to damage the enemies they fight, rather than just what they damage them with; "I want to Wound the goblin in the arm so its attacks are weaker"; "I want to Injure the giant crab's legs so it can't move"; etc. and on the flip side, means that even the weakest enemy can cause problems if they land an attack.

Oh, and most of all, the system makes it very clear if someone is actually getting physically hit, or if they're dodging or blocking.

That's literally irrelevant to the matter at hand, and you know it.

For all its problems, Anima can be pretty lethal, if only because it can be easy to get a base damage equal or in excess of most human characters' LP.

Then there's open rolls and you can easily hit someone for over 150% on a fluke.

It obviously doesn't, but then you have cure X wounds, which is... well. Wounds.

Which means like cure light will bring the average man back from death's door to full HP, but barely scratches an injured person of consequence.

>I see hitpoints very inelegant
>so I made this system that's about 3-5 times as complicated.

I mean, whatever floats your boat, but maybe you want to watch the words you are using, because you sound like a giant tit atm.

So... a shitty version of M&M?

I was always annoyed in DnD that my rogue couldn't stealth grapple a person with a knife and put them in a compliance hold, simply because his strength isn't high enough to wrestle someone by force.

Yet the ability to slide a dagger into vital anatomy agaisnt an unaware (or compromised) opponent doesn't allow you to hold a person at weapon's point, especially since you can't ready full attack actions, nor sneak someone who is aware of you.

Yet another reason why 4e healing surges were great; they are always a % of your HP, so the healing being based on them means that a heal will generally bring everyone up to about the same level of healthiness. There are edge cases (healing potions) but it sidesteps the whole "CLW heals this guy fully, but only 1/10th of the HP of this other guy" thing.