So I have started watching Star Wars:Rebels and now am really enjoying the fact that they are trying to make KotOR...

So I have started watching Star Wars:Rebels and now am really enjoying the fact that they are trying to make KotOR canon both in this and since Clone Wars.
Aside from that something that always bugged me is in the Star Wars universe is why combining both dark and light side is so hard or unheard of ?
I can guess that lore wise it my be very hard since the dark side is tempting and blah blah, but surly there must have been a force user that for example uses his emotions for power yet does not succumb to them ?
Someone that can perhaps use his anger, fear and sadness and maybe even the good emotions as a controlled source of power while maintaining balance and control ?

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Because it's a dumb concept in Star Wars.

Star Wars is about the battle between good and evil. It's a swashbuckling fantasy series first and foremost, exploration of gradient morality is best left to genres that aren't for children and about laser swords and space wizards.

My only hope is that thrawn survives this season after fucking wreaking everyone just so we have a possibility for a spin off movie

I think part of the reason why people really liked KotOR 2 was because it did do the "exploration of gradient morality" and it did it well.

Only if you buy into Kreia's preaching and forget that she was a genocidal megalomaniac desperate to blame something else for her own failings.

Because the dark side is inherently alluring and almost everyone who has tried to blend the two ends up focusing on the dark side and falling as a result. Maintaining control is kind of hard when the power that you're using is intensely addictive even more than UNLIMITED POWER usually is. It's like saying that you're going to use meth in a balanced and controlled manner. Is it possible? Maybe for a truly exceptional individual. Is it likely? Nope.

> Someone that can perhaps use his anger, fear and sadness and maybe even the good emotions as a controlled source of power while maintaining balance and control
Emotions exist specifically to override balance and control. Think about why a species evolves emotions like fear or anger. They are powerful impulses, and the thing driving their selection across generations is the fact that they give you a shift kick in your mental butt and get you to do something regardless of rational thought because rational thought is sometimes too slow.

That thing you saw floating in the river for just a split second before it vanished under the water? Sure, your rational mind could calculate the odds of it being something dangerous versus something benign. You could maintain balance and control, after all it might have just been a fish, or a stick, or whatever. But fear kicks in and forces you to run, and while it might have been nothing, it also might have been a crocodile that was moving in to strike and if you had stayed you'd be lunch. Over the generations, the individuals that have a more powerful fear response survive to reproduce and pass on that trait, while the more rational, balanced, and controlled individuals are eaten by crocodiles and thus don't pass that on.

You're relying on the idea that you can both use fear while controlling it. But the entire reason that an emotional response like fear has endured is that it is capable of overpowering reason and forcing you to take swift, impulsive action.

TL;DR
> Already I can see the chain reaction: the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason.

Canon Star Wars has saturday morning cartoon morality, you can't use the bad dude powers because they're bad and then you turn bad. Blame George, he made very clear how he wanted things, maybe in time Disney will slowly move to more grey areas.

This is what I really don't like about Star Wars.

It's a shame, because the setting is great to explore some morality gradients, but instead we just get "the evil fascist empire that is defeated by the good rebels".

IMO Rogue One seems to have tried to make some changes in this regard - at least the Empire says that they want to bring peace to the universe (not just "join us because we are evil and powerful") and there are some terrorist rebels, although I think they could have done a bit more.

I want to believe that the natural state of the Force is the Dark Side and that's why everybody gets drawn to it but never into the Light Side, it's the Jedi the ones who have to be careful with it, but the Sith never "accidentally" fall into the Light Side. That's why there aren't Jedi who use DS powers.

At the end of the day, the Empire is still a horribly oppressive authoritarian state. People sometimes say that's too simplistic and a more realistic approach would be better, but the fact is that horribly oppressive authoritarian states are actually very realistic. They've happened a lot in real life, history has shown that you can even get downright hilariously evil regimes at times. Really good people might be rare in real life, but there isn't a corresponding shortage of incredibly evil ones.

The rebels, on the other hand, specifically work hard to maintain their image. The fact that they don't do ridiculously evil things isn't because they're inherently good, there have always been some nasty people in the rebellion though that comes up more in the novelizations than the movies themselves, but rather it's because they know it won't help them. The public image of the rebel alliance as morally upstanding and even humanitarian is the one thing that has kept them alive, because as we can see from the very start of A New Hope, they have a very high attrition rate. Recruitment is vital to the rebellion, and acting like a heroic group is good for that.

The most recent episode of rebels actually covered this fact decently. With a rebel arguing for much harder actions, torture and terrorism. The counterpoint to it being that the rebels rely on the good will of the people for shelter and supplies. The short term, small victories they could earn that way pale to long term sustained support.

The Empire trying to bring peace to the Galaxy existed before Disney, fuck, in the old EU the Emperor all what he did was to save the Galaxy, by uniting all systems under a same "flag", from the yuuzhan vong a super powerful alien race from beyond the known space (doesn't turn him good but makes the creation of the Empire have more sense than "unlimited power!")

The stormtroopers are recuitred from people who willingly join the Empire, they aren't forced, etc

Fuck, look at the new Republic now, they're so retarded believing a treaty is going to protect them from attacks that they don't even have a proper army and got curbstomped by the FO, they did absolutely nothing to defend themselves thinking just a paper was enough of a defense

I'd honestly prefer they didn't. Shades of grey isn't something that inherently makes everything better. There is room for stories of good and evil. I think you'd lose a lot of the mystique of the force.

>Fuck, look at the new Republic now, they're so retarded believing a treaty is going to protect them from attacks that they don't even have a proper army and got curbstomped by the FO

The FO never fought Republic forces in TFA. They fought the privately funded new rebellion and even then, they were generally evenly matched (After all, the stormtroopers started getting fucked when the rebels claimed air superiority in the big battle in the middle)

The Republic lost planets to a sudden superweapon sneak attack but they never really had a fight.

It's the opposite. The "natural" state of the force is the light side. The problem is that the force needs to act through people, and those people will pretty much always have at least some emotions. Even the most stoic person has at least some emotions, albeit limited and suppressed. So no matter what, the force will always interact with the world through a filter that colors it with emotion.

"Light" Jedi try to limit the amount of emotion that they mix with the force when they use it, and as a result come closer to the "natural" state of the force. Still, they can never actually reach a truly emotionless state and so there will always be at least a little distance between the force that they use and the full light side, which is basically just a theoretical concept because no one will actually be able to touch it.

"Dark" Jedi go in the opposite direction. They try to maximize the amount of emotion that they inject into the force when they use it. They think this both makes it more powerful and gives them control over it, since they are basically twisting the force into a reflection of what they are feeling. While it is easier to do, it is also highly addictive and amplifies the emotions in question, basically making you into anything from a slave to your passions to an egotistical asshole. Since it's your emotions running the show, that basically becomes all you care about. A user's number one relationship is with their drug, everything else is secondary.

> but the Sith never "accidentally" fall into the Light Side.
In TOR there was one. The other Sith killed him for it, but you find him chilling as a force ghost. Basically he realized that the Sith Code was a lie, the dark side doesn't set you free and instead just makes you a slave to your own impulses. He was branded a heretic by the other Sith and murdered.

The republic did nothing to stop the FO, nor to defend themselves, spy what they were doing, etc, they though a mere piece of paper was going to save them to the bitter end. Fuck, this whole armada was in the system, THEIR WHOLE FUCKING ARMADA IN A SINGLE POINT, this is moronic. There was also a lot of infighting in the new republic and half of it didn't even want an army because "muh we can repeat our past sins!"

Also, for a couple of dudes with no resources as the FO is defined in the new canon, building a superweapon 10 times as big as the DS and once it blows up in its first day treat it as a pocket change makes no sense.

>The "natural" state of the force is the light side
As engineer the natural state of things is the one things get drawn to, if you're Light Side user any small change can move you to the Dark Side, the opposite doesn't happen. Light Side seems like a metastable state to me. Of course, canonwise is how you say, but what the canon says and what literally the canon shows is not the same.

The Emperor wanted to rule. Don't act like he was thinking of some greater good beyond himself, because literally nothing supports that. He wanted to rule the galaxy, and the Yuuzhan Vong were RIVALS.

> The stormtroopers are recuitred from people who willingly join the Empire, they aren't forced, etc
Lots of militaries have volunteers, that doesn't make them good or evil. It's a function of everything from nationalism to propaganda to simply lacking better options. People in North Korea are willing to go to great lengths to get into the military on a permanent basis, if only because that guarantees them more food than they would otherwise get.

>but the Sith never "accidentally" fall into the Light Side.

Isn't that Kylo Ren's entire issue? He wants to be a badass dark sith but he's really, really not naturally inclined that way?

Reread the post, I didn't say the Empire was good, didn't say the empero wasn't evil, I just gaveyou reasons why isn't "lulzevil". Having volunteers means that they believe in what they're fighting for, does that turn 80% of the galaxy evil? You think every stormtrooper and their families are evil? the janitors, the engineers, etc are evil?

He murdered his own father. I'd say he is inclined toward the dark side. Most people who use the dark side aren't badass, only the very top dogs get to that level. Your average dark side user is a self-centered, petty, vindictive asshole. It's a philosophy built around indulging in your passions without regard for others. Some of them become badass Sith Lords who troll the whole galaxy with their UNLIMITED POWER, but the vast majority don't. Look at the Sith Academy in KOTOR. Bunch of self-absorbed brats who think that force powers give them a license to be a backstabbing dicks.

Speculation, he only had problems with killing his father, that doesn't turn him good, neither makes him fall into the light side, he just doesn't go full evil for the sake of evil as Snoke seems him to be. He doesn't seem to have many regrets about killing innocents and throws a fit every 5 seconds, to me that's the opposite of "falling into the light side", I give you the benefit of the doubt because we literally saw only one movie and his story is yet to be writen but for me is more "doesn't full dive into the pool of lava head first with a somersault" than "he isn't inclined to be bad".

I was going more with his speech when he was arguing with vader's helmet. Talking about how he didn't think he was strong enough to do what he needs to do and he want's his grandfather's help.

I might be over-reading but it felt like someone trying to escape regrets and ethical worries about what he's doing.

The Dark Side is pretty much the equivalent of the One Ring in LotR. It's supposed to be the ultimate corruption.

> Reread the post, I didn't say the Empire was good, didn't say the empero wasn't evil, I just gaveyou reasons why isn't "lulzevil".
And I'm giving you a reason that the emperor wasn't in it to save the galaxy by uniting it all under the same flag. He wasn't interested in saving anything. He wanted power, and wasn't interested in sharing. You claim that UNLIMITED POWER doesn't make sense as a motivation, but in reality people like that crop up all the damn time. Is it simple? Sure. Still perfectly realistic. Sometimes motivations are surprisingly simple.

> You think every stormtrooper and their families are evil? the janitors, the engineers, etc are evil?
Personally, maybe. Maybe not. But they're certainly helping an extremely evil person maintain an extremely evil regime. The fact that they believe in their cause doesn't change that. People can believe in all manner of stupid or evil things.

It didn't strike me as regrets so much as him recognizing that he's actually not as powerful as all that. Dude did get his ass beat by an outer rim scavenger with zero experience as a jedi. Though admittedly he had been shot.

There's one example of a Sith falling into the light side, Ulic Quel-Droma, after they stripped the Force out of him....fuck, never mind

Also that was more a case of him realizing how much he'd fucked up after murdering his younger brother in a fit of rage. Then it took him years spent in seclusion to finally move back toward the light. Not so much a fall as a slow, arduous climb back up. Then he got shot and killed by a nobody who wanted to make a name for himself by killing a famous Sith Lord.

No, I meant, is "easy" to come back to the "good" side when the Dark Side isn't pulling you back because the Force doesn't affect you anymore.

kel'eth ur a nothing minor NPC in TOR fell to the light side. He also seemed cooler than the jedi to me.

youtube.com/watch?v=RQar1NXXMFI

>but surly there must have been a force user that for example uses his emotions for power yet does not succumb to them ?
It's not about having emotions, it's about letting them control you. And the kind of power you need means you will be letting them drive your actions.

That Palpatine thing is horseshit.

Did the Emperor foresee the Vong and want to fight them? Yes. Was he doing it to save the galaxy? Fuck no. Was he doing it for any reason other than he saw the galaxy as his and didn't want a bunch of BDSM-obsessed assholes taking it from him? Yes.

>MMORPG
Hahahaha, no

Star wars movies except the original three are shit, I don't really see the difference.

> He also seemed cooler than the jedi to me.
He's basically a super-jedi. After all, this was a guy who was born and raised among the Sith, lived under the yoke of a Sith Empire, and yet managed to intellectually find his way out of that morass of dickishness and turn to the light. It's like going about your day wearing hundreds of pounds of weights, and then finally taking them off.

Also he's got a bitchin' hat.

Thats why KOTOR 2 is a well written game.
Nevermind that Kreia do fail to wrestle The Force at some point as well.

Crap, remove that "any reason other than" thing, should have said because.

>Basically he realized that the Sith Code was a lie, the dark side doesn't set you free and instead just makes you a slave to your own impulses.
Basically he committed sudoku by being too smart and too dumb at the same time. The fact that last line of the Sith code talks about something else setting you free should have probably clued him that someone plays with loaded dice here.

I agree. Its the first time I've seen the light side be convincing other than "don't be a bad guy".

Again, nobody is saying Palpatine was good or that did things out of his good heart, but he wasn't lulzevil for the sake of evil (before Disney at least), he had some constructive plans and wanted things to work, under his command, but to work, he also wanted stability in the galaxy, under his command, but wanted stability. Was the Empire evil? well, for sure was leaded by an Evil person, but had some good stuff going onw, good in the sense of civilization moving forward, prosperity and shit

Other sith in previous EU all they wanted was fighting, warring, killing, etc with no thoughts in an afterward

Taking into account that the Force doesn't exist without life (and viceversa) and that the only way we have to perceive it is through life, I'm fairly sure that the Force will always tend to the Dark Side because life has emotions.

>Hey, my Revan went intermitently between Light and Dark because I killed or spared out of a whim so that means you can bounce between one and another fucking easily
Is a fucking game, you can use that as example of anything

>the opposite doesn't happen.
Outside of SWOTOR MMO, we don't have any semi cannon material where Dark Side is the majority.

Outiside of TOR MMORPG, in all the history of the Force there wasn't a Dark Side user drawn to the Light Side, only Vader and that mainly was a singular point to save his son and wasn't a "oh shit, I'm slowing beign drawn by the Light Side which according to the setting I'm is the natural state of the Force"

The Dark Side is not a discrete form of the Force, it's the Force with cancer. You can't combine them like that.

The Force draws a lot from Buddhism, which focuses a lot on not being attached, letting go of the physical world to embrace the spiritual. Strong emotions pretty much always derive from attachment.

In the case of the Force, this is particularly deadly, because it produces a feedback loop. Strong emotions mean stronger ripples in the Force which means stronger and more extreme emotions, and so on. It begins to literally physically decay you. This is why the Jedi preach such a sterile ideology, because passion is downright deadly! Of course, not all Force users feel this way. Qui-Gon didn't.

People razz on the 'fear leads to anger' speech, but it really makes perfect sense in the context of the Jedi faith.

Take death. Fear of death leads to anger that you can't prevent it in you and those you love. That anger finds an outlet in proxies as hate. And of course this causes suffering for you, for those you care about, and for your victims.

Because one cannot be both furious and calm simultaneously without being a sociopath.

>Take death. Fear of death leads to anger that you can't prevent it in you and those you love. That anger finds an outlet in proxies as hate. And of course this causes suffering for you, for those you care about, and for your victims.

And one of the Sith actually cured death (from old age at least). Though he was killed before he could make it known to general public or at least just more people.

Anger can lead to more things than just simple destruction.

There's this Jedi from 300 AFTER Yavin, called Cade Skywalker, who has the unique power to bringing people from the doors of death back, basically ressurrects them if they died like seconds ago, but all Jedi go "Nooo!, Dark Side power, that's bad! let people go! attachment bad!", it's fucking stupid.

Dude is a prick that is more dark sider than grey jedi, but at least he's just ruthless to evil people and a just dick to his friends

>before he could make it known to general public
I'll take "things that were never going to happen" for 10, user.

What that Sith Lord did was basically twist and corrupt the Force, via a thing that had been set into motion several centuries earlier, into healing and restoring his body, directly turning himself against the cycle of life within the universe itself. He also monologues that in doing so, he felt the Force react negatively to his presence and "go somewhere" to "do something". And coincidentally, right around then is when Anakin was spawned.

shittily-written EU is not canon.

And someone needs to remember their OT Yoda

>luminous beings are we, not this crude matter

>I'll take "things that were never going to happen" for 10, user.
It doesn't matter what he wanted to do. There is this thing that most Sith genius like to have - recognition. Sooner or later he would have mentioned this process to other people and it would have spread.

Also Sith and most people don't give a fuck about "cycle of life"

> he also wanted stability in the galaxy, under his command, but wanted stability.
Again, no. This isn't a case of "oh, disney changed it." Look at Dark Empire. When Palpatine was cloned he helped to foster civil war among the Imperial Remnants, resulting in the deaths of millions as core world like Coruscant were turned into war zones by rival warlords. All so that he could emerge on top and reclaim total control of the Empire and usher in a brutal dark side aristocracy. Which, by the way, featured constant infighting as per Sith tradition. He didn't want stability. He wanted power.

Nor did the Empire bring prosperity to its people. Its obsession with militarism even when the weapons they were producing were ineffective led to the decline of many worlds. That's one of the reasons people supported the rebellion. The Empire didn't "move civilization forward" as you claim. If anything, it sank back into things like slavery and simple brutality. Prosperity? The production of weapons such as the Death Star were a massive theft from the people of the galaxy. The Empire sucked up wealth and resources and spat out absurd super weapons in an attempt to assert dominance. That isn't prosperity, it's blatant overcompensating.

He did mention it to another person.

His apprentice.

Guess what happened next.

Is shittily-written canon canon?
Because Yoda knew what was going to happen and not only did nothing, he also got caught by surprise his vision of the future happened.

Also Jedi built their temple on top of a dark side volcano (it's odd how many worlds erupt dark side and literally almost none that erupt light side, which helps my point of dark side is the natural state of the Force but I digress) and that turned off their Sith detector and they knew about it and also did nothing, etc.

OT tells us that the Dark Side is a perversion, and you can't just handwoven Vader.

Shitty EU fanfiction is subordinate.

It wasn't a dark side volcano, just a massive nexus well of Force energy. If you mean the Coruscant one. Yavin 4 is a better candidate for Dark Side volcano for Luke's new Jedi Order in the EU, but in that case, in all fairness, he had no idea at the time that there was a Sith spirit stalking it and waiting for a bunch of corruptible Jedi kids to show up.

The Jedi built their Temple atop a Sith shrine, not a dark side volcano.

What it tells us and what you actually see are two different things.
Canon tell us First Order are a bunch of nobodies with literally no resources a mere shadow of the vast power of the Empire, yet they treat the Starkiller base (10 times bigger than the second death star) as fucking pocket change, how? fuckign how when the Death Stars were so expensive for the Empire?

Same with the Force, they tell us the Light Side is the natural state but in 99.99% of cases the path of less effort is to the Dark Side, Light Side is what in engineering is called a Metastable path, like a rock on top of a cliff, a small force will fuck that shit up and make the rock topple to the bottom, the state of maximum stability. Rocks don't to go up of cliffs naturally.

No volcano in the literally sense, it was a metaphore, it was a Sith Temple that literally was erupting Dark Side constantly. Still is stupid beyond belief to do that, then they go all "gee we can't find the Sith in the senate, why would that be? I dunno", "gee we don't have visions of the future because the "dark side clouds everything in great danger you are"", fucking morons.

People like to pretend that the Empire did lots of good things that it didn't actually do in order to justify their love of it. Veeky Forums has a very strong authoritarian bent, so it's not really surprising that people here want to believe that the Empire can't possibly be as evil as it is portrayed.

Luke is exactly what you are talking about. He rejected the Jedi way of life by embracing his emotions, including the "bad" ones, but rejected the sith by not allowing himself to be consumed by them

In the EU, the orgigin is that the original sith race had people who served is, Sith Lords, who were strong in the Dark Side. Because the Dark Side can use your own emotions agaisnt you, those who wished to rebel studied the Force in secret and developed mental regimens and self control to the point where the could combat the Sith without giving the Sith access to their use of the Force or their emotional strength by practiced asceticism.

The sith were destroyed, the sith lords disbanded, and the Jedi became peacekeepers in a newly freed civiliztion.

So you are, in one way, correct - the Jedi are not the natural methodology of Force use. But neither are the ways of the Sith. This is also why Sith are so gung-ho on retaking control of civilization to the point of stupidity.

I don't buy it.

>starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sacred_spire

That's what the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was in the EU. I can see no reference at all to it being a Sith Temple, and as autistic as the Wook is, they go out of their way to catalogue everything they possibly can.

Yep he decided that a couple of thousand years of retardation is enough and tried to take a more sensible approach.

The dark side is the easy path because of how stupidly strong emotions can be. It's like how it's much easier to move a rock with a lever than with your bare hands. It's not that a small force will knock it over, but that the emotions act like a tool in order to move it more easily. Of course the drawback is that this particular tool also has addictive properties and turns you into a selfish asshole.

Shelling of Korriban didn't help matters too. Jedi and Sith have a long story of grudges.

The latter part of the EU had some hints that there was some sort of dark side thing underneath the Temple on Coruscant.

TCW actually was going to go into it, there's even concept art for it, but the canon novel Tarkin was where it ended up being established that there is a Sith shrine buried deep underneath the Jedi Temple. The Jedi established the Temple there in hopes to cancel out the effects of the shrine, but it didn't work - in fact, it's theorized that the shrine ended up corrupting the Temple to some extent - and that Palpatine was using this shrine to muck with their abilities to see the future.

Anybody who says Star Wars is a good setting to explore morality, the human condition, the nature of humans is a fucking retard.

Star Wars, like all fantasy, is purely there to feel out the edges of the nature of literature and, more specifically, story telling as an art.

Any media that does not align with this will ruin the other Star Warses. Like watching a village of Mon Calamari get gang raped by Quarine in a never ending race war for Water World is sure going to be called back the next time Admiral Ackbar comes on screen the next time you watch RotJ.

That's why Disney rebooted the canon, that's why it's a good thing, and that's why Rogue One sucks.

TCW was also going into Order 66 before it got ended

Starkiller base doesn't need a gigantic battery infrastructure.
Even the weapon is pretty shitty for something as impressive as it is.

Technically it wasn't a couple of thousand years. The more rigid incarnation of the Jedi Order from the prequels is the result of the Ruusan Reformation, which was 1,000 BBY.

And in their defense, it was a doctrine designed for the time. The Sith War was over, the galaxy was recovering, and the Republic was growing increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of an "Army of Light" and "Jedi Lords." Pre-reformation, the Jedi didn't flat out deny emotions or reject all attachments. Jedi did do things like fall in love, get married, raise families, etc. pre-reformation.

But after the end of the Sith War and increasing mistrust from the Republic, the Jedi started to transition to a more monastic, passive role in order to assuage the fears of the galaxy at large. They stopped being warriors and lords, gave up much of their complexity, and generally withdrew from galactic affairs. Their training and code changed to reflect this, as they switched focus from going out and defeating evil to just training generation after generation of force sensitives to be monks who wouldn't terrify the galaxy.

That sort of worked during peace time, but it blew up in their faces when the Clone Wars finally rolled around because it turns out the war wasn't actually won. The Sith were still out there, and the post-reformation Jedi Order was not designed to fight them. It was design to be a bunch of simple monks who wouldn't scare people.

Restricting your emotions tends to lead to a serious lack of empathy, which made the Jedi Order seriously self-centered and only concerned about themselves and their spiritual purity. It's why the Jedi in KotOR refused to help the republic in the mandalorian wars, it's why the jedi refused to actually intervene in the conflict between the republic and the CIS, and it's the reason why yoda and obi wan's shitty ghost told luke to not go save his friend's life.

Crazy stupid precautionary measures to avoid going to the dark side are more important than innocent lives, and of course since Jedi are trained and sheltered basically from birth, they aren't emotionally prepared to deal with their emotions and become consumed by them, falling to the dark side.

The Sith are a symptom of the Jedi Order. The fall of Revan and the fall of Anakin are the fault of the Jedi just as much if not more than it was the fault of those individuals, and Luke is fairly unique in rejecting those, as he is already an emotionally healthy individual by the time he begins his jedi training, and not coincidentally becomes the most powerful force user ever because of it.

I mean the first kotor had that grey jedi too.
Now I'm actually remembering a bit more and his story of the jedi who had the force swirling around them like you suggesting a mighty fate and were all full of themselves because of it leading to his end being thrown into an engine by the bbeg and hitting the one in a million chance of fucking up the whole ship.

He embraced the positive and rejected the negative even though it meant the Emperor would kill him.

Jolee Bindo, you mean? People forget that for all his talk, he was still pretty firmly on the side of the Jedi when it came time to choose. Hell, the Jedi Council actually liked him. Bindo just didn't like them as much. They wanted to make him a knight, but he turned them down and went off to live as a hermit.

Idk about current canon but there have been examples of the jedi fucking up and fucking themselves over by being too caught up in their own rules and sense of emotional superiority.

Because getting too attached to your rules about attachment is itself an attachment, and a sense of superiority is an emotion.

> It's why the Jedi in KotOR refused to help the republic in the mandalorian wars
Because they foresaw that if the Jedi got involved, it would lead to another war right on the heels of the Mandalorian War. And it turns out they were completely right.

> it's why the jedi refused to actually intervene in the conflict between the republic and the CIS
Except that they did. In the Clone Wars they took on the role of generals and fought extensively against the CIS for the Republic.

> it's the reason why yoda and obi wan's shitty ghost told luke to not go save his friend's life.
They told him not to go because he wasn't ready to face Vader yet. And they were completely right, Vader schooled him and he basically didn't help at all.

>Yoda: Luke save your friends you don't
>Luke: B-but muh friends
>Yoda: No
>Obi [whispering]: Mmm, Yoda, my man, among his friends there's also the other one, you know
>Yoda: SHIEEEET, Luke go...oh, he left, thank god, imagine if followed my advice he had

Arguably Luke going to face Vader only made things worse, everybody would have still escaped anyway.

> imagine if followed my advice he had
He would have had more time to train and wouldn't have lost his hand.

Han ended up in carbonite and shipped off to Jabba anyway, and Leia escaped because Lando double-crossed the Empire, not because of Luke. At the end, Luke was the one who needed to be saved after he ended up hanging from a weathervane on the underside of Cloud City.

>Because they foresaw that if the Jedi got involved, it would lead to another war right on the heels of the Mandalorian War. And it turns out they were completely right.
Which happened in part because council tried to stop jedi from participating. A case of self-fulfilling prophecy.

No, it happened because of sunk costs fallacy, which isn't restricted to Jedi. After Malacore, Revan and the Jedi who fought alongside him basically said "Well, we've done so much horrible stuff in this war that there's no turning back now" and went full Sith.

Oh better not use the force to heal ANY injuries or disease or even just prevent accidental death since it goes against the cycle of life itself, if you're gonna die then you're supposed to die.

Also weren't there implications that he actually had a hand in anakin's creation? I mean if anakin was supposed to be the force correcting the imbalance of eternal youth then it did a shitty job which was the whole idea with him not actually fulfilling the prophecy.

It's not what the guy did. Jedi healers do injury and disease healing, and Jedi can literally enter healing trances to help their body recover. It's how he did it that matters.

And no, Anakin was the Force's response to eliminate the imbalance represented by the Sith. And he did that. It took him a while, and he needed Luke's help to get the job done when everything went to shit, but he did it.

I thought it was more like Revan thought the republic had become a joke a needed a tune up because he was afraid of something else wiping it out, while Malak became a teamkilling douche and just fucked up that plan

Really, wiping out most of the jedi and killing the apprentice of the guy who upset the cycle of life but not actually getting rid of the sith was the force successfully fixing the imbalance of upsetting the cycle of life by preventing death?

No. The destruction of the Jedi had nothing to do with it. Anakin himself maybe killed 2-3% of the Jedi, total.

The prophecy was the destruction of the Sith would bring balance to the Force. Anakin fulfilled this by killing Palpatine and casting off the identity of Darth Vader, but it took Luke acting as a catalyst for him to finally turn back to the light and perform the duty he had been created for.

But that wasn't the destruction of the sith.

Yes, it was. With Palpatine and Vader both destroyed, there are no more Sith. The prophecy has been fulfilled.

pretty sure darth vectuvius did that. then again his story comes from a pretty shady source so yeah.
also not-canon anymore, thanks disney.

I think Star Wars handles it in an interesting way. There is actually a lot of grey area in the Galaxy, in fact most of what we see in the setting are areas of seedy commerce and contentious, complex politics. It's really just the magic system that's bound to a black and white morality, and I think that's a perfectly acceptable way to build a world. Being a sorcerer usually means you're bound by some esoteric rules that don't affect ordinary people.

I actually prefer the concept of Dark Siders who aren't Sith anyway, they're easier to fit into their own stories.

Non-Canon

>at least the Empire says that they want to bring peace to the universe
We already saw Palpatine use that argument to become emperor in RotS. It was entirely disingenuous, since they already had a long standing peace until his manipulations ended it.

It makes sense that a lot of imperial officers would buy into the idea that they're keeping the galaxy safe. But as the audience we know that the real point of the Galactic Empire is Palaptine getting off on the power.

The smuggling, politics and crime part of Star Wars is great.
Everything else is just well done.
Its not like the best part of Clone Wars Series was the Politics(Hint: It was)

I believe Mace's fighting style actually revolved around that.

The best parts of Clone Wars were;
>Ventress
>Maul
>every episode that happened on Geonosis
>Anakin actually being a cool guy
>Orange Buttcheeks

The Clone Wars was just too good for this Earth.