ITT: Wasted Settings

ITT: Wasted Settings


Post-apocalyptic VR hacker-pirates is SUCH a good concept, but they shit the bed with the whole esoteric Neo bullshit.

I just wanted to see hovercraft crews going on Matrix runs and interacting with all the cool Virtual-World-of-Darkness shit they had going on.

The rogue programs, the agents, the shadowy VR underworld, the pirate crews and their way of life; it was all much more interesting than the main plotline.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Ascending
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Dumping some cool Matrix concepts

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You completely missed the point of the movie.

I didn't. It's a pretentious as fuck message that has been done to death and in much better ways.

It basically takes the ideas and questions proposed by the works that influenced it, and plays with them in an objectively inferior way.

The setting is amazing though, and it's what saves the franchise for me.

My favorite concept from this is the alternate matrixes.
All completely different in settings and rules. Shame they used it once throughout the whole trilogy.

It would even be cool to put in a game.
Maybe the group is in the normal matrix, and on their way to their objective, they end up stuck in a world full of fantasy creatures.

All the VR stuff was really great, and had infinite possibilities; they really fucked it up by introducing the supernatural elements.

>That one website full of weird surreal sort of canon alt Matrixes
>This was ignored completely for the sequel, barely touched in the Animatrix

Such a shame. I'd play in this setting too, but if you're going to question the nature of Reality, just play Unknown Armies.

Same shit, mildly different flavor.

This is just a thing that nerds do. We see great stories, then we obsess over minor setting details while ignoring the things that made the stories capture us in the first place. And then we wonder why no-one likes the works we put out that focus on those details.

>making Plato's allegory of the cave accessible to a modern audience
>getting a whole generation to seriously question the nature and authenticity of their experience
>pretentious

>That one website full of weird surreal sort of canon alt Matrixes
Explain more

>Blade Runner
>2001 A Space Odyssey
>dozens of Dr. Who episodes
>Alice in motherfucking Wonderland
>Ghost In The Shell
>Akira

And that's not even considering the hundreds of comics and books like Neuromancer and The Invisibles that had been touching on those themes for decades.

All of those do the philosophical questioning part better than The Matrix. The only reason someone would find The Matrix complex is if they were either very young, or they're exclusively intellectually fed by hollywood blockbusters and AAA video games.

The Matrix universe is cool as fuck, but its handling of philosophical questions is immature and pretentious.

Give us a link you double queer animal-loving sperm-wasting anonmyous with precious and valuable information.

>B-b-but this anime did philosophy better!

Please. Explain how it was "pretentious" or "immature".

>Dr. Who
>Not pretentious or immature

...

2 of the 6 examples he posted are anime.

But!

Only 1 or 2 of those addresses the same philosophies as the matrix. And even then, only sort of. So fuck, I don't know.

You don't get to say something handles philosophy pretentiously or immaturely and then quote fucking Doctor Who. I like it but it's not deep, as hard as it tries to be sometimes.

Also, Matrix is very blatantly gnostic, which none of your examples (the ones I have seen, anyways) are. It's also an action movie and excellent at it.

I still get a little hard when Neo works up the balls to go toe to toe with Smith.

Eh, Old Who had some fantastic episodes on that front. Inferno or the The Curse of Peladon.

I'll admit I haven't seen a lot of the old series

I didn't name those for being deep or complex, I named them for bringing the same themes to the masses way before The Matrix came out.

I also said they do it better than The Matrix, which in my opinion they do. The Matrix is a blockbuster action movie first, and I like the allegories it plays with. My main point was that it tried to be much more than just that, and it failed miserably.

I was just adressing the guy who said I "missed the point of the movies" for saying they should've stuck with the tone of the first movie instead of going all metaphysical during the sequels.

I've heard that originally Neo finds out he isn't actually the chosen One, and the ending was supposed to be different, which would've been way more interesting of a conclusion to me, and more fitting with the tone.

Also the "Zion was a ruse all along!" thing REALLY turned me off. It's basically just a Cave allegory inside of a Cave allegory,and that's just shitty.

It was often a bit less on the nose than new Who. New Who tends to go in saying 'We want to give this message'. Old Who was more 'We would like to investigate this issue'.

Inferno is also honestly the darkest episode of Dr Who about. It's about the Doctor having to convince people to help him, those people knowing fully well that he couldn't save them and the people he was trying to help they'd never met before and would never know them. Every single person in Inferno from the very start is living on borrowed time and the Doctor knows that every single one of them will die, no matter what he does. So a lot of it's value is as a story about how people cope with death they know is coming.

The again: We also have the episode where the Doctor fights the evils of Margaret Thatcher and her candy cyborg Dr Mengle. So I can't say they were all hits.

Matix was overrated shit, SHIT! 13y-old queer edgelords, ruined movies forever. Worse then Firefly sheeple.

>Ghost In The Shell

This movie is kind of the definition of pretentious, even as good as it is.

> I named them for bringing the same themes to the masses way before The Matrix came out.
Almost no ideas are new. Matrix played its themes in a way that made them both a convincing explanation for over-the-top action that would otherwise completely shatter suspension of disbelief and presented ages-old philosophical questions and concepts so that they resonated with modern audiences.

What made the first movie cool wasn't that it was super-duper-deep but that it was deeper than usual for an action movie and made both sides work in tandem. And it had cool special effects which, while still pretty primitive and occasionally not that convincing even back them, worked to further the idea that their reality was fake.

Also, again, Matrix is very gnostic which goes a tiny bit deeper than just questioning the nature of reality
> they should've stuck with the tone of the first movie instead of going all metaphysical during the sequels.
You should have said that more clearly then because I doubt a lot of people will disagree

>I've heard that originally Neo finds out he isn't actually the chosen One, and the ending was supposed to be different, which would've been way more interesting of a conclusion to me, and more fitting with the tone.
The way I see it it would have been more fitting with the tone if you see it as primarily cyberpunk, but it'd need serious rewriting to make a lot of other themes coherent. You'd practically need a whole different movie

>Shame they used it once throughout the whole trilogy.
What is this trilogy nonsense? There are only two movies: The Matrix and the Animatrix, the later of which shows us many different Matrices.

I always thought it was cool how the Matrix went through multiple versions and relics were left from them.

IIRC, the first Matrix was a pastoral paradise, but humans couldn't believe it was real and escaped. The second matrix was a monster-filled hell, and humans still couldn't believe it was real. The Merovingian and his cronies are leftover monsters from Matrix 2 that hid in the source when it was shut down.

Thanks for the summary, I think I'll get around downloading it around these days

>You should have said that more clearly then because I doubt a lot of people will disagree

"Post-apocalyptic VR hacker-pirates is SUCH a good concept, but they shit the bed with the whole esoteric Neo bullshit."

Literally in the OP.

>The way I see it it would have been more fitting with the tone if you see it as primarily cyberpunk, but it'd need serious rewriting to make a lot of other themes coherent. You'd practically need a whole different movie

That's bullshit. All the underlying themes are actually UNDERMINED when you realize Neo is a special snowflake destined to be THE HERO.

It would have worked much better if they went with the original idea that he was just a regular guy taking his destiny into his own hands.

>supernatural elements
You missed the point. Outside of the matrix was another matrix.
Unless you're talking about the vampires and ghosts and shit. That was pretty stupid.

That's fan theory AT BEST. That was never the point of the movies.

>"Post-apocalyptic VR hacker-pirates is SUCH a good concept, but they shit the bed with the whole esoteric Neo bullshit."
Most people love the "esoteric neo bullshit". It sounds like you just wanted a high budget cyberpunk movie.
>That's bullshit. All the underlying themes are actually UNDERMINED when you realize Neo is a special snowflake destined to be THE HERO.
The part about prophecy, fate etc. may need further analysis, but they're not undermined. Quite the opposite if you interpret it as Neo achieving gnosis. How many times should I say "gnosticism"?

The Matrix was a success because of its groundbreaking special effects and the badass visual style that hadn't been done before in a mainstream movie. The enormous budget helped too. Take those out and make it a movie about computer hacking and philosophy and it would have tanked.

Proof: The Wachowski sisters have done several movies since, none of which have approached the prestige of the Matrix.

Most people? Seriously? The sequels were trashed to shit exactly because of the direction the plot took towards those themes.

I mean, it's alright if you like it, but don't try to pain it as the consensus, because "most people" DEFINITELY resent the metaphysical esoteric bullshit.

Neo being able to bend reality while inside the Matrix because he began to understand it was all a simulation and started using his hacker mind to hack reality? That's awesome.

Neo being able to bend ACTUAL reality because... he's... the messiah or something? What? Get that weak shit outta here nigga.

You are missing my point completely. I am not defending the sequels. I am talking solely about the first movie. Take away the philosophical themes from the FIRST matrix movie and it's just a mediocre cyberpunk movie about leather-clad, sunglass-wearing hackers fighting evil robots which enslaved humanity

All the philosophical questioning in the movie IS because of all of humanity being enslaved by robots inside of a simulation.

The supernatural chosen one shit has is not exclusive to make it all work, and in fact it hinders a lot of points the films tries to make.

Actually, like said, take away all the flashy stuff and you're left with a pretty underwhelming movie that no one would remember like Gattica or something.

user at this point I'm just going to start crying and banging my fist on the desk while screaming "GNOSTICISM". It's one of the most obvious ways to interpret the movie. Also, on second thought I think you can work around the stuff with fate and the cheesy Trinity kiss scene if you consider gnostic beliefs on Jesus and the significance of duality/gender, but it's really more effort that I can muster to write up something decent about it

Please insert anime face

I know that it plays with gnostic themes, my point is that they're shit and most people agree that the franchise was better off without those themes.

>Matrix
>good
Holy shit, tg just hit a new low.

The point of was that the flashy stuff was what made it SUCCESFUL, not GOOD. The flashy stuff just gives the already interesting if very basic philosophy and esoteric themes more mass appeal

Also, I disagree with him about the Wachowski's newer movies. They've failed because they're generally badly written, not because they go too deep on philosophy. Which I think is almost completely absent from them

>They've failed because they're generally badly written

So, just like The Matrix then.

"Most people" didn't pick up on those themes because "most people" don't know or care about philosophy, and "most people" don't know shit about what makes good storytelling. "Most people" saw an inventive action movie with a totally unique premise by action movie standards and were sold by the action and the visual aesthetics. "Most people" then didn't like the sequels and couldn't explain why, saying things like "they were confusing" or they "had no plot" even though they were mostly just more of the same. It turns out, "most people" are fucking retarded. "Most people" went and saw Man of Steel, didn't like it, then went to see Batman v. Superman even though it was clearly just more of the same, and then complained that they still didn't like it. I think "most people" also saw Suicide Squad for the same fucking reason. Terrible movies can be successful, just like the Matrix sequels.

What board are we on again?

Movies don't usually fail because of bad writing. Nobody can tell if the writing is bad until either they see the movie or a ton of critics see the movie and harp on the writing specifically, which they rarely do. Furthermore, plenty of successful movies have shitty writing. Hell plenty of all-around GOOD movies have meh or bad writing. Star Wars had bad writing.

The franchise's most lasting impact was re-introducing the allegory of the cave into pop culture, which you have admitted over and over in this thread. You can exchange the other stuff with anything else, you could make it a fantasy movie while leaving that core concept intact and people would still identify it with the matrix. On the other hand, VR pirate-hackers could be a fuckload of generic cyberpunk and unless someone's only exposure to that genre is Matrix it's probably not going to be one of their main guesses
The Matrix was wildly succesful, so no. And regardless of whether you dislike it I don't think you've watched Cloud Atlas or Jupiter Rising if you think Matrix was anywhere near that fucking horrible

He wasn't calling the matrix not successful, you mong. He said it was badly written, like the Wachowskis' other movies.

I'm going to tell you the same thing I told OP. Cloud Atlas and Jupiter rising may as well have been written by a high school freshman. The acting is terrible. The aesthetics are off putting. The special effects are terrible. Almost everything about them is fucking terrible. They have no saving graces and that is why they failed.

Matrix at least had good action scenes and special effects.

And I am saying nothing about Matrix goes as incredibly low as either Jupiter Rising or Cloud Atlas did. Also, my quote said "they've failed".

>The Matrix was wildly succesful

Exactly, because of the groundbreaking special effects. Which the other badly written movies lack.

> You can exchange the other stuff with anything else, you could make it a fantasy movie while leaving that core concept intact and people would still identify it with the matrix. On the other hand, VR pirate-hackers could be a fuckload of generic cyberpunk and unless someone's only exposure to that genre is Matrix it's probably not going to be one of their main guesses

The core concept of The Matrix IS hackers being awakened from a Virtual Reality. What the fuck, man. Are you telling me that the "chosen one" part is what you think most people identify The Matrix with?

How retarded can you be? That's like the plot of literally every shonen anime out there. Take out the VR shit and The Matrix is literally Naruto. I mean, fuck, IT'S THE NAME OF THE FUCKING SERIES.

>Jupiter Rising

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Ascending

That has to be the most retarded post I've ever seen.

Are you telling me:

"That one series in which the protagonist finds out he's the chosen one, gradually accepts his destiny and finally saves the world"

is more defining of the Matrix series than:

"that one post-apocalyptic series with hovercraft pirates that hack into a virtual reality where most people don't know they're in a simulation" ?

>"That one series in which the protagonist finds out he's the chosen one, gradually accepts his destiny and finally saves the world"
>Are you telling me that the "chosen one" part is what you think most people identify The Matrix with?
Do I need to record myself saying "gnosticism" and "allegory of the cave", break into your house, take your phone and put it as your fucking ringtone so after a few months of hearing it you think back to our argument on Veeky Forums and finally get my fucking point?
>ake out the VR shit and The Matrix is literally Naruto
You just reached peak shitpost. Bravo.
I don't even remember the name of the damn thing. I just remember it was essentially the same plot as one of the sections of Cloud Atlas, which was horrible too, and that everything in the movie ranged from underwhelming to terrible. I only watched those movies because, for Cloud Atlas, I was mortally bored while on a several hour long bus ride and for Jupiter Ascending because a friend wanted to watch it

You just came up with a setting, not a story.

>That has to be the most retarded post I've ever seen.

Said the pot, to the kettle. He's saying the defining part of the Matrix is the allegory of the cave, not the chosen one stuff. VR hovercraft pirates are a thing, they fit into cyberpunk like black men fit into your mom. Nobody is saying the chosen one stuff is defining of anything. That would be retarded.

>and finally get my fucking point?

Maybe try making one instead of running that goalpost around like a headless chicken.

Yeah, that's kinda literally the point of the thread.

I have been saying the same thing this whole thread. That's why I could make a joke about how I could sum up my argument with two phrases.

>He's saying the defining part of the Matrix is the allegory of the cave, not the chosen one stuff.

No, you fucking cock blaster, that's the point I'm making. His point is that The Matrix revolves around the gnostic themes and that's what most people identify The Matrix with, which is bullshit.

>VR hovercraft pirates are a thing

Name three things that have VR hovecraft hackers

I don't even know what to tell you user. It's like we're reading different threads.

1. The Matrix
2. The Matrix Reloaded
3. The Animatrix
4. The Matrix Revolutions

That's four things. Did I just blow your fucking mind?

I officially no longer know what this discussion is about.

kek

I don't know man, you tell me. The allegory of the cave is only present in the film if we have the people enslaved by robots and hackers who can jack out of the simulation and see the real world for what it is. This is what defines The Matrix.

The other part of the plot, about Neo being a mystical chosen one and having powers that affect the real world, a destiny that has to be fulfilled and the whole "power of love saves the world" stuff, is most definitely NOT what defines the series, and is generic as fuck.

OP here.

I just wanted to talk about cool settings, mang.

>"power of love saves the world" stuff, is most definitely NOT what defines the series, and is generic as fuck.

Name three things that have this.

Different user but the gnostic themes are kinda shitty and it'd be better to stick with the setting and make either a different overarching theme or subvert the whole chosen one thing.

I never even mentioned the chosen one or the power of love. I even pointed out that the movie's back-and-forth about fate could be a thematic inconsistency and that it was one of the few things that wouldn't squarely fit into a gnostic interpretation of the movie. You literally pulled that whole thing about me being a grand advocate for Naruto out of your ass.

What the hell was your point then? What does define The Matrix for most people then? You keep saying "gnosticism!" but you haven't really made a point yet.

GNOSTICISM AND THE ALLEGORY OF THE CAVE

WHAT MADE THE FIRST MOVIE MOST MEMORABLE WERE HOW THEY FIT SIMPLE PHILOSOPHICAL THEMES WITH AN ACTION MOVIE AND MADE SOMETHING GREATER THAN THE SUM OF ITS PARTS

IF YOU TAKE EITHER ASPECT THE RESULT IS MEDIOCRE

THE SEQUELS SUCK

I SAID THIS OVER AN HOUR AGO

>you haven't really made a point yet.
Replied the kettle, resentful of the pot's earlier accusations.

Kinda shitty is how you show a complicated concept to the general masses. Hollywood is actually really good at this.

And for the guy saying the success of Matrix came solely from groundbreaking special effects: Financially the argument may hold up, but in terms of cultural impact few people cared that much about Avatar

What? Which of those address the 'brain in a jar' question?

But those weren't what made the movie memorable, you stupid fuck. Those things had been done to death in cinema. What made it memorable were the groundbreaking-at-the-time effects and that 90s edgy cyberpunk aesthetics.

Are you fucking shitting me? People were going into clinical depression after watching the film from how impressed they were with the effects in Avatar. It was REALLY relevant for a period of time, just like The Matrix was.

The Matrix in pop culture, nowadays and after its release, are basically trenchcoats and leather clothing, bullet time and virtual reality.

None of the "deep philosophical themes that the MASSES would NEVER have acess to otherwise" were that big of a deal, and they're certainly not what made the series a pop culture phenomenon.

>What does define The Matrix for most people then?
Leather coats, guns, VR, evil robots, and a lack of spoons.

Ghost in the Shells' protagonist is literally a brain in a sexy lady shaped jar

Oh, and slow-motion flippy gymnastics.

It really is a movie/setting that would make for a great game.

>Those things had been done to death in cinema
2 of your examples from earlier were anime, another was some non-specific episodes from a tv show and one was a book. Off the other two, I only see one that isn't a enormous reach

And after seeing you trying to compare the cultural impact of Matrix with Avatar I'm starting to get really fucking tired of this argument.

Not him, but I think I can help explain the point he's been clearly and repeatedly making to you this whole thread.

Reality as you know it is not the "true" reality. It's an elaborate illusion crafted to entrap you and prevent you from perceiving the truth. Seeing beyond reality as it seems to be, and understanding reality as it truly exists, is the path to enlightenment.

There. That's the theme at the heart of The Matrix. That's the defining feature that makes it unique among any other high-budget action movie you might see. That's what "gnostic themes" and "allegory of the cave" refer to.

Isn't that more questions about her identity, though, not whether the external world is real?

I could be wrong, though- I remember the second film having a whole bunch of weirdness.

>Matrix is smart and revolutionary maymay
2017 was a mistake.

Nobody here called it smart you ass clown. And it *was* revolutionary - the word was IN THE TITLE OF THE THIRD FUCKING MOVIE YOU FUCKING DIP SHIT.

>replied the kettle

Sensiblechuckle.gif

Thanks, I'll be here all night.

Unfortunately.

>Post-apocalyptic VR hacker-pirates is SUCH a good concept, but they shit the bed with the whole esoteric Neo bullshit.

Maybe if it was just a setting.

But it wasn't just a setting. It was a film about a nigga achieving gnosis. Films have to have an actual emotional climax and Neo realizing what the One is and becoming it is one of the most satisfying action movie climaxes in cinema.

>His point is that The Matrix revolves around the gnostic themes and that's what most people identify The Matrix with, which is bullshit.

Not really. The identify The Matrix with those themes even if they don't know the proper term for them.

>But those weren't what made the movie memorable, you stupid fuck. Those things had been done to death in cinema. What made it memorable were the groundbreaking-at-the-time effects and that 90s edgy cyberpunk aesthetics.

It was a mixture of both. The Matrix would not have been as successful or memorable had it not presented its depth in an accessible and endearing way, and combined it with that groundbreaking effects work.

>It was REALLY relevant for a period of time

No, it was relevant to a few deluded escapists with nothing better in their life, for like half year. The Matrix redefined the action genre for almost a decade to come. We still see its effects lingering in our media.

And why were the immediate copycat films not as successful? Because while they aped the visuals, they didn't touch any of the interesting stuff that the visuals were there to enhance.

That's what the mmo was for dummy

I bet you think Neo saved Zion.

I bet you think Zion ever existed. I bet you think all the characters in the movies are real.

The only real character is Neo. Everyone else is just like the lady in the red dress.

If you want more inspiration, check out The Matrix comics.

They have the mysterious and paranoid atmosphere of the first film.

I prefer the alt ending for the first movie where Mr. Anderson wakes up in a mental institution and discovers it was all his brain trying to rationalize his descent into schizophrenia.

Until Zach Snyder ruined that concept with Sucker Punch (a surprisingly apt description of what he did).

>Wasted settings
>Implying Matrix was either about cool quasi-cyberpunk fight with The Man or it was a post-apo movie
What kind of millenial revisionism is this?!

Out of entire Animatrix, ONLY Program counts. Because it's good. Because it has style. Because it's not just some convoluted bullshit.

people loved it because most people not opennminded as nerds, you fucking nerds. we percept thing through different media and its shapes subcounciously. whatever nerds also pursuit meta knowledge we take those seeds into surface with time.
most people doesn't think or process that way. so when they say no spoon=bullet time their mind blows.
thats it. because of it they love this movie in this particular style. if you try to change flavour, no body watch the fucking movie. in this terms matrix did nothing wrong.

I'm 100% with you...
... and still the 2nd and 3rd movie was just awful. All the set pieces involving Smith in those two were fucking joke.

...

Ask and you shall receive

So...what system would you run a Matrix game on? Modified Shadowrun? Cyberpunk 2070? Paranoia?

pic related?

>2017
>Not just using GURPS

Check this one out lol