Was Kreia from kotor 2 right about the nature of the force? Are the jedi not so different from the sith...

Didn't play the game, but I feel like the premise is mostly sound.

The Sith observe the rule of 2 for a reason. Keeping the Sith pure and stronger each generation.

The Jedi should have observed a similar ideal. When the Order got too large, they got complacent, arrogant and that breeds the problems which ultimately led to their downfall.

It's two sides of the same coin.

He did a fine job balancing it when he reduced the number of Sith from two to zero.

Rocks fall, everyone dies.
No Man = No Force = No Problem

>The Darkside is inherently a corruption in the force. The force by it's nature is "the light", it's harmony, it is balance
You say that like it's somehow self-evident, like stating it makes it true
Literally nowhere in the canon has there been anything that shows the jedi doctrine to be objectively true or anything but literally their interpretation of the force
It's an account from the perspective of people who live in the universe
What the force actually is and what it's true nature is entirely unknown and subject to interpretation

It doesn't help that the original movies depict the dark side as cackling, mustacho-twirling villains and jedi as pretty unambiguously benevolent

Bleh. Having Kreia in my party was like taking a road trip to Calfornia with my ex-wife with the only music available being a scratched-up Nickelback CD. She ruined that game.

I thought she was pretty well written desu.

Though top tier party is Visas and HK-47

That might be the canon now that Disney has hit the reset button on the franchise's lore but the force used to just be without being good or evil. However, since this is a discussion specifically about KOTOR which has joined the rest of the EU in the non-canon trashbin the current canon isn't as relevant.

It's basic Taoism, dude. The Dark Side is Disharmony.

>That might be the canon now that Disney has hit the reset button

No. it was always canon. You know what wasn't? The Books and EU you are referencing where the Force was Neutral. The only thing that was ever canon was Lucas' films. Lucas was explicit about this even when he owned the IP, Disney did nothing new when they re-codified this.

Weren't there a few sith who told others that the lightside is calling them, and tempting them? Just like the Darkside tempts a Jedi?

The OP is literally talking about the EU. Saying the EU was never cannon does nothing to answer their question.

This, canonity is not relevant to this discussion

Stop trying to use it as a trump card

Actually it answers their question perfectly.

>Was Kreia from kotor 2 right about the nature of the force?

The answer is "No". She's not canon, so she cannot be right.

Looked at one way, she's the philosophy of the dark side taken to it's logical conclusion. The dark side is all about power and the ability to do what you want with that power. It promises absolute freedom for those who master it. However, strong you get though, you're still ultimately only a conduit for the force. The stronger you get, the more bound you are to the force, because the less you can do without it. So how do you free yourself from this trap? Well... Kreia found the exile, who was able to live without the force. The Exile stared into the abyss at Malachor and lived with it, she wasn't broken to Revan's path as just about everyone else there was.

She's also a deconstruction of the Light Side. There's one bit where she dismisses, "soldiers, droids, starships, they are but obstacles, crude matter against which we test ourselves..." That's a deliberate reference to Yoda's "luminous beings are we, not this crude matte". But with the context shifted, it's used to dismiss unimaginable suffering and destruction, she then goes on to explain that "the true war is over the hearts of the Jedi". The thing is, that's a pretty fair assessment of the Star Wars movies. Kreia presents you with a version of the philosophy of the light side that is horrific, one where Jedi are distant and indifferent to anything other than matters of the force, and the suffering and death of those around them only matters to the extent that it affects the Jedi themselves. Again, this informs Kreia's relationship with the Exile, who's whole deal is that she cannot be indifferent, rather than standing apart, the Exile must join her life to those around her.

The light side isn't a thing in the films. It was always "The Force" and "The Dark Side", which was an passion driven corrupted version of the force. The light side only existed in supplementary material. It's why the Grey Jedi has always been something of a joke; it's a pretentious "I know better then everyone else" philosophy that stems from writers misunderstanding the original concept of the force

Explain Dagobah and the dark side cave, literally a naturally occurring phenomena

>all this overthinking

the cuck writer - yes, I know who Avellone is, no, I don't care - just didn't like Star Wars

So he created a self insert mouthpiece to try and deconstruct the setting

Kreia is nothing more than the authors bitch tool about what he hates about the setting. She's presented as right because of authorial fiat - if Avellone wasn't in charge, Kreia wouldn't be as unchallenged as she is.

The Jedi way, while maybe more traditionally moral, also has it's failings.

Completely shutting out negative emotion and attachment is sort of what led to their blindness towards the existence of Sideous and his disciples and machinations until it was too late.

>just didn't like Star Wars
Well let's be honest here SW is kiddy shit and not even good kiddy shit

May be true but I have no respect for "creative types" who think their shit doesn't stink because something doesn't "engage" them. His company was employed to produce a Star Wars game, that becomes his job. If he doesn't like it he should suck it up or leave, not try to inject his shit into it

When in the movies is it made apparent that the dark side is disharmony and the force is harmony?

George Lucas, Don't blame Avellone for trying to salvage your series. Any Other creator would have copy and paste Kotor 1 and pass it off as Kotor 2.

If you don't like a series, you likely shouldn't write for it and try to warp it into something else.

Maybe we'd have gotten a game with an ending in that case.

>not try to inject his shit into it
Fucking what? Of course he should
HE was contracted to write for a Star Wars game because they wanted HIM to write it
Are you retarded?

Lucas' thoughts on the topic of the Force imply she was wrong in anything major.

Nah you got that ass backwards Obsidian was contracted to make the game he was just their lead writer. He knew full well that the star wars dichotomy was The Force and The Dark Side. Then, being Avellone, he decided to be an ass and twist Lucas's interpretaton and then show exactly how his (Avellone's) wouldn't work and present it as a refutation of star wars balck and white morality, which was never truly a thing anyway. A Jedi is free to be any kind of human being he wants to be and love someone else, only in their dealings with the force do they have to keep emotions particularly negative emotions out of it.

Alright, so what do you hate about her views and how they work with the setting?

>A Jedi is free to be any kind of human being he wants to be and love someone else, only in their dealings with the force do they have to keep emotions particularly negative emotions out of it.
>laughingjedimasters.tiff

Luke Skywalker might disagree with you. and George Lucas definitely does.

Luke was very passionate though, almost illogically

And his love for his father was vindicated and shown to be right, even when everyone else, including his masters, were telling him it was wrong.

No, I'm pretty sure he doesn't. A Jedi's entire life is the force. They're a pack of creepy celibate robo-monks.

This incidentally is how Luke was able to bring balance to the force - through love, agape love, non-possessive non judgemental love. Luke succeeded where his father failed because he was able to be a Christ figure, a redeemer

Mind you, the next movie might throw that all into the air when we learn just what went wrong with Lukes school and why he fucked off to the ass end of the galaxy

The jedi masters were never portrayed as "in the right", though. They were cloistered and out of touch. The rebellious Qui-Gon Jinn was shown to be the best of them, and he did not deny his emotions, though he kept them tempered.

Yes but he ruled his passions, thus he became closer to the force, Dark Side users let their passions rule them pulling them away from the Force. This is all very clear in the films, at least to me.

You're not seriously referring to Qui Gonn Jinn as emotional, are you? In any way, shape or form?

To be fair, what George Lucas thinks means fuck all if you can't support it with the actual movies. Death of the author

I can and did, use the movies. see Also he's not dead and is still working with Disney in an advisory role.

Luke ruled his passions instead of denying them like the Jedi order of old would have demanded. This is why Luke was able to surpass his father.

All of the best Jedi were very passionate, but were able to rule their passions and not be ruled by them - Jinn, Windu, Kenobi, Kloon, Yoda, etc. These were the 'masters' because they realized the secret was not in denying their passions, but overcoming them.

Jinn was considered a rebel because he wasn't indecisive. The Old Order was plagued by indecisiveness because the darkside clouded their vision of the future, they weren't certain what to do. They were also torn between their position of neutrality and their position as representatives of the Republic.

>Completely shutting out negative emotion and attachment is sort of what led to their blindness towards the existence of Sideous and his disciples and machinations until it was too late.

This. I think the Jedi would be wiser and longer-lasting and more stable if rather than blocking out or ignoring negative emotion they strove to understand negative emotion, to analyze its source, and to accept, acknowledge, and ultimately coexist and comprehend it.

I also take issue with any emotions being explicitly classified as "negative." Even animals have a concept of vengeance -- a tiger tracked and trashed the cabin of a hunter that wounded it, destroying anything that had the hunter's scent on it, and waited at the cabin for the hunter to return so it could kill him.

You're not wrong, but I still like it.

you do know that Kotor2 was rushed out because the publisher, right?

But in contrast, the Jedi Code leads to a detachment from the present and is primarily what led to the Mandolorian Wars, the Jedi Civil War, and the Clone Wars. Additionally, the Jedi code is flawed from a fundamental level due to it's double standards and hypocrisies. I think Atton summed it up perfectly in his rant against the Jedi, the advocate the truth except when they lie, the save the weak unless they serve to gain. At least the Sith are honest with their intentions and through that honesty are able to achieve greater heights and do so legitimately.
Meanwhile the Jedi refuse to raise a lightsaber until the libraries on Coruscant are on fire because those fucking faggots keep destroying them and it's so fucking difficult to keep them from sabering them to death instantly. FUCK THE JEDI

> she's the philosophy of the dark side taken to it's logical conclusion. The dark side is all about power and the ability to do what you want with that power. It promises absolute freedom for those who master it. However, strong you get though, you're still ultimately only a conduit for the force. The stronger you get, the more bound you are to the force, because the less you can do without it.

Never thought about it like this, but it makes perfect fucking sense with what I understand about the Sith

but bonus exp tho
The robot is fun, but painslut doesn't really bring much in the way of conversation

Death of the author just means authorial intent doesn't matter once a work is published. So your interpretation in could be valid, but just "George Lucas says this" isn't

Just because the direction is wooden doesn't mean the character is intended to be. Qui-Gon had a philosophical focus on feeling and instinct, guiding oneself through intuition. He was mentioned as having defied the council several times due to this.

best party is corrupting the light side mercenary to the DAARK SIIDE

Wait...how did the Jedi code lead to the clone wars? They went to discuss things diplomatically, then the Sith had them attacked at the meeting.

Yeah, that's great and all, but it's wrong because he shows no fucking emotion in his dealings with anything, where as others do. He defied the council, sure. But was there emotion? No. Even in the novelisations there wasn't any emotion.

>These were the 'masters' because they realized the secret was not in denying their passions, but overcoming them
Why the fuck did they preach otherwise then?

Because Jedi are typically trained from a young age and teenagers are horny fucks that could easily spiral into the darkside from puberty alone?

Because their growing complacency even in the wake of constant strife throughout the galaxy was due to their following of the code and it's principals of detachment. By ignoring the surrounding threats around them, Palpatine was able to establish a power base, manipulate the existing forces to his gains, and then let it all tumble down on the jedi to eliminate them.
Had they adopted a more involved and aware ideology (like the true jedi millennia before them) they would have sensed the threats coming in from all sides and actually assisted in removing them far before it was too late.

I'm more of a believer in Word of God, when it comes to fiction, the authors ideas on their creation are all that matter in interpreting something objectively, subjectively you can interpret something 100 different ways but in my view the authors is correct as its their creation, it is theirs forever and always even after they sell it to the Mouse.

You seem to have something confused. He was guided wholly by his feelings, particularly that training Anakin felt correct, in spite of everyone else's misgivings. Just because he wasn't shouting or crying doesn't mean he lacks emotions. He just was not dominated by them; he listened to his heart completely internally.

On the flip side, you would think an order founded on and based around educating young people would realize that telling young people to "just don't fuck" is probably the worst thing you could possibly do.

Then again, look at the American public school system.

Even in a galaxy far far away, Baptist Christian values are to blame

They were not ignoring it. They were working to stop the war before a single shot was fired.

And Obi Wan only trained Anakin out of this sentimentality, and the Masters only allowed it because they felt bad about Jinns death.

Their greatest mistake was when they listened to their emotions instead of reason.

>And Obi Wan only trained Anakin out of this sentimentality,
it was Obi-wan's arrogance. He thought He could instruct Vader just as well as Yoda.

I still feel like after tens of thousands of years of galaxy spanning civilization they should have figured some things out

He was guided by his intuition, not I HAVE A RAGING BONER FOR THIS BOY'S FORCE POTENTIAL. You know they're two different things, right?

Did a pretty good job, huh?
Inaction is not an action, despite their teachings.

Kreia was a failure at everything she put her hand too. At every opportunity to make her mark she dithered and delayed until she was abandoned or betrayed, and then concocted a nonsense story about how it was all the force's fault she sat on her thumb right up to the moment someone who gave a damn grabbed her by the ankles and started trying to shake the smug out of her like a bunch of loose change.

Why would you take her legacy of utter failure as a mark of wisdom?

?????????????

No one said the Jedi had to be wise, just pretend to be.

No, they didn't succeed. If we saw the times the Jedi succeeded it would be a very dull movie.

They were, however, acting to try to stop the war. You can't say they were doing nothing when literally the first thing you see with them in episode one is them going to try to solve the situation diplomatically.

>Legacy of utter failure
>Trained fucking Revan

>Inaction is not an action, despite their teachings.
Apathy is death

They're really not. All intuition is is a vague sense that this is a correct course of action.
And it's a pretty damn raging boner when you continue to say it feels correct when every last person other than you says "this doesn't feel correct".

Then why does she always disagree with the pc? Why does everyone hate her amd disagree with her ideals.
This who mouthpiece crap is retarded, its a mouthpiece that is constantly chalanged and disenfranchised

In the context of Star Wars, Kreia was wrong about the nature of the Force. However, her philosophy from her experiences opened up an interesting way to view the Jedi, Sith, and their relationship with the Force and the galaxy at large.

>also trained the Exile

>trained two insanely powerful Jedi each with different and valuable attributes.

Because her job as a teacher is to disagree and always play opposite to the PC's ideas

>. All intuition is is a vague sense that this is a correct course of action.
That's not an emotion.

When her students followed her teachings to the mandalorian wars she stood idle and watched them fall die.

When the jedi civil war tore the remains of the old republic apart, she stood idle, and, this treason piled atop the failure and treason of her students, she faced expulsion.

When she led the alliance of the sith lords, she stood idle until they rose up in rage against her and cast her down.

She seems altogether more interested in standing around spouting faux wisdom and sniffing her own farts than ever achieving anything.

Apathy is death.

Truth be told, I'm having a hard time thinking of times the Jedi succeeded. Hell even the Galactic Civil War was won by those terrorists that Luke affiliated with. You could even argue they lost the Jedi Civil War due to only like 10 remaining after it.
APATHY IS DEATH

Never thought about it like that. She trained a few jedi, a few sith, one who drew on both with equal facility, and one who was a powerful force user with no force of her own.

Yes, it is.

the exile is so powerful that their mere presence is able to warp of others they're near and alter their alignments.

>>also trained the Exile
>>trained two insanely powerful Jedi each with different and valuable attributes.
>>The Jedi Council exiled her because all of her students fought in the Mandalorian wars. While they sat on their council seats acting like Sanctimonious asses, Spouting peace and other shit to war refugees who lost everything in the war.
Attond Rand Was Right. The Jedi and Sith are no different.

ATTON
WAS
RIGHT

GAS THE JEDI

GALACTIC WAR NOW

Soon the Purge shall begin anew

Okay. Go talk to a shrink about how your incredible intuition is ruining your life. Fucking hell.

I'm pretty sure that Luke blew up the death star and was the one who resulted in the death of the Emperor by saving his father.

She still didn't have any force power of her own. She took it all from companions.

Kreia kinda addresses that point in the game.
She gets angry when you tell her about your sway over Visas and when you ask her about it she admits she knows she is not a leader. Her voice will never command those below her or sway their opinions like the exiles does. That obviously bothers her deeply as it's the only thing she gets visibly bothered by that you didn't do.
But there's no denying she's an excellent teacher.
>Revan
>Exile
>Sion
All powerful as fuck

Yeah, that's something gamblers have to do when their intuition that they'll win the next one for sure ends up bankrupting them.

>Was Kreia from kotor 2 right about the nature of the force?
No, she's just reveling in her own butthurt.

>Are the jedi not so different from the sith.
The Sith just don't have a big tower and a state sponsored religion.

>Can the same thing be said about the sith?
The Force shall free me.

Isn't that more to do with him being a wound in the force of whatever

I'm not even sure where to begin. You're ignorant, but I'm not sure if it's the genuine kind of the wilful kind.

its a combination of them being a wound in the force and their ability to continue to wield the force regardless

>Isn't that more to do with him being a wound in the force of whatever
The Jedi Exile was afraid of what she had become