Veeky Forums Why do most game have a simplistic Morality when dealing with Magic...

Because good guy lie. And they manipulate. And every act of charity or kindness they do, you can drag it out squirming into the light and see it for what it is. The world doesn't need their arrogance nor hypocrisy anymore.

Because for the most part that kind of magic actually puts not only your life at risk but in a lot of cases it can also corrupt the user themselves. It's just a tool for the user and the wielder may be a good guy but they probably won't be much longer after they've tapped into it too many times.

>Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
>Through passion, I gain strength.
>Through strength, I gain power.
>Through power, I gain victory.
>Through victory, my chains are broken.
>The Force shall free me.

Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword.

Because Darkness is the fear and evil lurking out of sight in the night and the light is what beats the darkness back

No, see, that's too obvious. You can't just throw out an empty hook.

You need to bait the hook with something whose discussion will lead into the hook, but is by itself a legitimate-sounding question. Like, "I want to make a good necromancer, but my DM says that all necromancy is evil because negative energy. How can I use it for good anyways?"

See, that sounds like there might be an actual discussion there, right? Wrong! It'll get sidetracked within ten posts into a flamewar about either the nature of necromancy, the nature of good and evil, or the wisdom in deliberately working around your DM.

>Because Darkness is the fear and evil lurking out of sight in the night and the light is what beats the darkness back
The dark is generous. Its first gift is concealment: our true faces lie in the dark beneath our skins, our true hearts remain shadowed deeper still. But the greatest concealment lies not in protecting our secret truths, but in hiding from us the truths of others.

The dark protects us from what we dare not know. Its second gift is comforting illusion: the ease of gentle dreams in night's embrace, the beauty that imagination brings to what would repel in day's harsh light. But the greatest of its comforts is the illusion that the dark is temporary: that every night brings a new day. Because it is day that is temporary. Day is the illusion.

Its third gift is the light itself: as days are defined by the nights that divide them, as stars are defined by the infinite black through which they wheel, the dark embraces the light, and brings it forth from the center of its own self. With each victory of the light, it is the dark that wins.

>concealment
>illusion
>sophistry
You do not sound like a good and righteous man of the light, stranger. Where the light lies there is no need for illusion, as the lights burns away falsities. We walk with honour in our breast and conviction so we have no need of concealment.

>We walk with honour in our breast and conviction so we have no need of concealment.

The dark is generous, and it is patient. It is the dark that seeds cruelty into justice, that drips contempt into compassion, that poisons love with grains of doubt.

The dark can be patient, because the slightest drop of rain will cause those seeds to sprout.

The rain will come, and the seeds will sprout, for the dark is the soil in which they grow, and it is the clouds above them, and it waits behind the star that gives them light.

The dark's patience is infinite.

Eventually, even stars burn out

and a tip to you good sir!

They probably would avoid it if the GM didn't just let you make a new character that's just as good as the one you lost from daemonic possession.

nods respectfully

Why do most setting have a constant Good vs Evil conflict.

Who doesn't want to play as the bad boy

Its a legacy mechanic from OD&D that has been copied without thinking if it's necessary or even wanted, simple as that.

Propaganda, nothing more.
Light = Good Dark = Evil
Light = Oppressive Dark = Comfy
Your choice.

Do not listen to him. His teachings will make you fall to the darkside

Aside from that something that always bugged me is in Almost all RPG game universe is why combining both dark and light side is so hard or unheard of ?
I can guess that lore wise it my be very hard since the dark side is tempting and blah blah, but surly there must have been a force user that for example uses his emotions for power yet does not succumb to them ?
Someone that can perhaps use his anger, fear and sadness and maybe even the good emotions as a controlled source of power while maintaining balance and control ?

Being extremely far leaning on one side of the spectrum is what gives you the neat things to begin with. If you're just some asshole who can't make up his mind you're neutral which nets you the Fighter class.

In the world of Magic: the Gathering, mixing white magic and black magic is a well-proven technique. And they've turned at least a couple of its planes into D&D settings, so it should count as one, maybe.

You mean the comfy side?

You know, it's funny, but now that I think of it, the only person that the Sith code worked for in the end was Darth Vader, because the force did free him.

Don't forget Darth vectivus. His very existance Triggers MoralFags

He doesn't exist anymore, and I never knew who he was until i found Veeky Forums anyway, but didn't he start out a Sith and turn himself from the Dark Side to The Force through being smarter than the average Sith?

Nope. He was a darksider though and through. He just didn't care about the sith or the jedi religious war.

>Darth vectivus
So he was a shit sith, lol. Nah I'm fairly sure I'm a "moralfag", and I don't care about him, because he did nothing, except exist and propagate Sith ideology, badly as he died naturally and not at the hand of an Apprentice. It's an interesting concept, but he's really just a character that was a Jedi and ultimately good, but used the Imbalance rather than the Balance. Odd, but not really how it works, at least according to Lucas, and Disney.

How many darksides ask another to kill him to save the lives of others?

Book of vile darkness had a pretty good point on when it would be appropriate to use the objective or relative approach to alignment.

I kind of agree that the relative approach is a bit unwieldy and requires heavy discussion with your group before you apply it, and even then you are bound to spend a long ass time arguing on what counts as what. Still, its a great rules set to use if you want to have some sort of paladin on paladin war where both sides can smite each other and call each other while still receiving the full support of their deity.

You know what I thought was funny in reading his page on the wook, is that if Luke had gone there instead of Nelani he probably would have killed vectivus and been none the worse for it.

>So he was a shit sith, lol
Who gives a fuck? Propaganda and ideaology is a cancer that inspires people to give up actually thinking for themselves.

>he did nothing, except exist and propagate Sith ideology, badly as he died naturally and not at the hand of an Apprentice

Seriously, just look at this. "he was a failure because he lived a long, prosperous happy life instead of getting shanked like a bitch"

Only an idiot would think of that being a failure, instead of a good life lived.

I never said he was an idiot and the shit Sith part was a joke, mind you but since you want to argue, he was legitimately bad as a Dark Lord Of The Sith, he was far more of a Jedi than he was a sith, because like all of the most successful Jedi, Luke, Mace, Yoda, Qui-Gonn, Obi-Wan, and so on, he confronted and controlled his passions rather than letting his passions rule him, he was a great Darksider, but an objectively shit Sith Lord.

That would make him the perfect Sith

So the perfect Sith is in essence a Jedi Master.

A jedi would have to go out wanking his dick out about "keeping peace in the galaxy" and going out there maintaining the status quo without realizing it(and this only works because light and dark sides of the forces are agents of nature and politicians are his pawns).

This guy went into the dakr side and retreated into his asteroid with his family and friends while developing new force techniques, it could be argued that his destiny was to find a technique that would allow others to rule the galaxy but on an individual level he was more moral and fair than any jedi.

A shitty Jedi would. And the jedi council is a shitty jedi order that got drawn into politics, which lead them down the path of the Dark Side. What defines a Jedi is his full acceptance of the Force and his will to comply, what defines a Sith is his denial and his effort to bend the Force to his own will.

You have shit reading comprehension skills if you think there's a light side to the force, there is only The Force and the Dark Side. The Dark Side is a cancer on The Force which is balance there is no such thing as the Light Side that shit was EU bullshit just like Vectivus.
Vectivus was not very moral as he literally killed people in order to make his force phantoms.
And i'm not aware of A requirement of being a Jedi as going out an wanking their dicks about keeping peace in the galaxy, I know that the most powerful Sith Lord of All Time manipulated the Order into at least half becoming what they originally were, an order of warriors who fought for galactic unity and peace, and were willing to sacrifice themselves for their comrades, and the other half into working for a Sith politically, they should have seen it but most of them had their heads too far into the higher mysteries of The Force to see Sidious for what he was, and Sidious was blocking their precognitive abilities and working very hard to twist Anakin to his side through those same visions.

>that shit was EU bullshit just like Vectivus.

The fuck do you think we are talking about here?

EU bullshit, just because I think it's bullshit doesn't mean I can't argue about it. In my view the movies take precedence and they never mention the Light Side, just The Force, it's buddhist or taoist philosophy on the nature of the universe, the Force being Balance, Dark Side being Imbalance, Nature versus the Unnatural relatively simple concept.

The force awakens mention the lightside

No, it just mentions the light, and I believe it was just Leia that said that and she's not a Jedi. The Force is nature, in all it's benevolence and harshness, it encompasses light but is not wholly light, it is uncaring and yet caring. You could say the light side is The Force but it's not entirely correct and never has been, as Disney is so far following Lucas's canon rules, which state unequivocally that there is no Light Side just The Force and The Dark Side..

>implying I can't pull out a doom

Is he the strongest demon.

Kylo ren said the light side is tempting him.

No, because you're making excuses for using literally objectively evil powers because its expedient. He's not being short-sighted, you are.

Ever since people that actively try to subvert those concepts inevitably end up with truly cringeworthy edgefests.

No he didn't, he said the LIGHT is drawing him in, that he felt it's presence as if being a Jedi was his natural state. Shall i go find the script for the scene to show you or do you want to keep being an idiot?

>I am going to use a spell with far-reaching, negative consequences because it is expedient and efficient.
>What do you mean *I'm* the short sighted one?

Actually nobody refers to the light or the light side anywhere in the script go here
imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens.html and Ctrl+F search the light or the light side, no spoken dialogue refers to either of those things.

Whose tool is it? Do you knwo exactly where magic comes from? Do you know what names and powers you are invoking when you cast the spells you use? Whose power is it that is used Yours, or some other beings? Is the soul trapped by your magics when you use them? Do you know for sure?

Magic is not a tool. It is a power, and all power comes from somewhere.

No its mention in the clone wars cgi. The mortis arc. The son was the darkside. The sister was the lightside. And the father was the balance.

No the daughter was the Force the son was the Dark Side, the father was between the two keeping the Dark Side from destroying all life in the galaxy and obviously failing, and further it's implied that they weren't real.

The mortis arc is non-canon due to contradicting George lucas words.

That and the son FELL to the Dark Side. That was kinda his arc.

Actually it is canon Lucas was directly involved with that. also this

Even if that was true (it's not,) it doesn't matter, George Lucas has no control over canon anymore, and anything in the Clone Wars is considered canon now.

It was always canon!

The Daughter was a member of a powerful family of Force wielders who inhabited the planet Mortis. She served as the paragon and the personification of the light side of the Force, embodying compassion, serenity and love among other attributes.

So she embodied the force in its entirety as Lucas is on record saying that the Jedi have it right, and Disney is following what he said about the force.

Well, true, what more I mean is that even if it did somehow contradict Lucas (which it didn't,) that would be irrelevant.

No, she embodied the Light side.

This fight is dumb. You're dumb. It wouldn't make sense for her to be Force, son dark side, and Father apparently ALSO the Force.

Except the entire conflict between the son and the father is that the son is FALLING to the dark side. You can't fall to the very thing you embody. You are already it.

Dark Arts is basically just the magic that has unreasonable amounts of collateral damage.

True. no argument here.
None of them are gods, though they were worshiped as gods by the Nightsisters they are not gods, only the Jedi have the correct interpretation of The Force, Lucas stated this, Disney is portraying this, maybe Lucas put his rules for canonicity in the contract when he sold the franchise to the mouse. I don't know about that, I only know the Jedi have it right.

user, kindly realize that in the OT, the way the Force worked is not a duality on a sliding scale, but a singular Force that had a lesser, unfortunate other part to it.
It's an analogy to the adage about japanese swordsmiths, when making a weapon, always make one before it to "draw the evil of the true blade into it". In reality this amounted to making a test blade, but it was instilled with ritual significance.

Oh, I get how it was, given Lucas legit just took eastern philosophy and filed the numbers off.

Things evolve though.

Honestly? Fuck the Jedi. If they have it right I want to be wrong.

Evil necromancer detected.

We're telling you they haven't Disney is sticking with the original interpretation Lucas gave us
Why so salty about the Jedi? their original doctrine in the EU didn't forbid or restrict someone the way it later did that led to Anakin falling and the corruption by Sidious.

Look at it as kreia point of view

Looked at one way, she's the philosophy of the dark side taken to it's logical conclusion. The dark side is all about power and the ability to do what you want with that power. It promises absolute freedom for those who master it. However, strong you get though, you're still ultimately only a conduit for the force. The stronger you get, the more bound you are to the force, because the less you can do without it. So how do you free yourself from this trap? Well... Kreia found the exile, who was able to live without the force. The Exile stared into the abyss at Malachor and lived with it, she wasn't broken to Revan's path as just about everyone else there was.

She's also a deconstruction of the Light Side. There's one bit where she dismisses, "soldiers, droids, starships, they are but obstacles, crude matter against which we test ourselves..." That's a deliberate reference to Yoda's "luminous beings are we, not this crude matte". But with the context shifted, it's used to dismiss unimaginable suffering and destruction, she then goes on to explain that "the true war is over the hearts of the Jedi". The thing is, that's a pretty fair assessment of the Star Wars movies. Kreia presents you with a version of the philosophy of the light side that is horrific, one where Jedi are distant and indifferent to anything other than matters of the force, and the suffering and death of those around them only matters to the extent that it affects the Jedi themselves. Again, this informs Kreia's relationship with the Exile, who's whole deal is that she cannot be indifferent, rather than standing apart, the Exile must join her life to those around her.

And to add to your point(no matter how much i dislike kreia) The Exile is basically Lucas' Jedi taken literally, she is the embodiment of The Force, as it should be.

>Why so salty about the Jedi? their original doctrine in the EU didn't forbid or restrict someone the way it later did that led to Anakin falling and the corruption by Sidious.

Yeah, but their original EU doctrine also acknowledged a light and dark side? Like, if we're going of Lucas canon, I'm speaking largely of movie Jedi then.

It's not so much salty as just rejecting their (and broadly Eastern) philosophy because I'm firmly in a Western tradition.

In many ways, some of Kreia's philosophy reminds me of certain critiques of Buddhist philosophy, which is likely intentional.

Becuase they didn't take the time to think about people who want a cheaper off-brand magic.

Interesting stuff. Well posted, user.

Something I've wanted to play with in Star Wars RP is the fact that the light and dark sides are not good and evil, not exactly. They're usually calmly benevolent and violently selfish, respectively, but morality is a little more complicated than that. Don't wanna go all edgemaster and be "the light side are the REAL villains !!!1!" but there are nuances.

And, of course, self-delusion is endless. Was going to have a character who thought he could fuel force powers with his burning, manly passion! But eventually that just leads to slaughtering anyone who might pose a threat to what you care about. The dark side is selfish and destructive, and while that's no exactly the same as evil, it tends to run that way eventually.

That was a different order, the Je'daii, and was heavily informed by the planet they were living on, they later became the Jedi, and yes perhaps with a bent towards the lighter emotions like compassion, because those didn't lead to the dark, so what? They took the whole order save those who had fallen entirely to darkness, who were all killed, and then fucked off from Tython and became the Jedi.

>Someone that can perhaps use his anger, fear and sadness
That's how I view barbarian rage. He doesn't cast spells, but he focuses his feelings into supernatural powers.
> and maybe even the good emotions as a controlled source of power while maintaining balance and control ?
I was part of a campaign where Hope was the most powerful force of all, but I don't see it working without the GM I had, it depended too much on knowing his players and how to judge player's antics from actual hope and hopelessness.

>I'm not evil just because I perform the ritual of reality-death that requires me to anoint the ashes of a good and just king with the blood of thirteen innocent virgins slain by my own hands!
>Magic's just a tool and I'm just using this tool for the purpose of killing the BBEG which is a good action, so how dare you try and tell me I'm evil for using ritual of reality-death!

>also trained the Exile
>trained two insanely powerful Jedi each with different and valuable attributes.
>The Jedi Council exiled her because all of her students fought in the Mandalorian wars. While they sat on their council seats acting like Sanctimonious asses, Spouting peace and other shit to war refugees who lost everything in the war.
Attond Rand Was Right. The Jedi and Sith are no different.

Were the Jedi masters right in their assertion
youtube.com/watch?v=3EtByaOxiwE

No.

Yes. They were following the lightside.

Nope, they were blind fools, Kreia was right about them, if for the wrong reasons. It's a good thing The Exiles teachings are what survived that period and not theirs.

>far-reaching, negative consequences
strange, no one ever mentioned those in the conversation
Is it another "user is making stuff up" episode ?

The title of this video fits so well with this scene.
Listening to the masters talk, "the end of the force and the end of the jedi", it's clear who was really afraid.
The jedi of this time, were less students of the force and more dogma. During the time of the movies, Grey Jedi (Jedi who don't completely follow or believe the Jedi teachings) like Qu-Gon-Jin could operate in the order even if they got on the council's nerves. But in this time, Grey Jedi like Kreia get kicked out, she wasn't even exiled for believing differently, but because all of her students fell. These guys were so focused on placing blame, they never tried to look for a reason, to find the source of the problem and fixing it, because that meant looking in a direction, they didn't want to.
And here they do it again. The Exile was the one person who could fight Darth NIhilus, simply because she was immune by virtue of being similar. Common sense should've told them that, if they had succeeded and fought him, they would've died, easily, then the whole galaxy would've followed.
The Exile was a wound in the force that lived, she represented the idea that their entire outlook in life was wrong, she existed beyond the sphere of their knowledge and limits of their beliefs and they thus tried to destroy her, not literally, but effectively. As before it was the same, instead of trying to understand, they placed blame and thus punishment.

>since when did Light=Good and Dark=Evil?
Eat a fucking bullet, OP.

>if you had stayed, you woul've changed us, and that, we cannot allow
Shitjedi/10
Where my meditation brothers at ?

Kreia was a Sith. And Qui-gon was not a Grey Jedi he was a Jedi Master who happened to disagree with the council. Grey Jedi do not exist.

>Grey Jedi like Kreia get kicked out, she wasn't even exiled for believing differently, but because all of her students fell
Yes, because what she taught them caused all her students to seek out the Dark Side in order to fulfill her dogma of self reliance and personal gain. Revan was probably the least offensive of them, being a genuinely decent person, like the Exile.
You hold the teacher responsible when they are the only one teaching, user.

>since when did Light=Good and Dark=Evil?

Since always? That shit goes way back to, like, Babylonian myth. Maybe even further.

I mean, I think we're speaking of different things. I'm aware of them, but I'm speaking of the fact that the vast majority of the EU accepted the Light Side as a thing.

>Shitjedi/10
You gotta think about it like this, user:
The Exile was noted, repeatedly, for being able to, thru a warped force connection, literally change the thought processes of the people around her.
The jedi masters feared her ability to literal make them do whatever she wanted them to do, even betray their deepest held beliefs, because she is a force vampire.
The EU missed the point on a lot of things, news at 11.