What do you think about precision/agility split instead of describing both things with one stat?

>On the other hand, having both makes them building an thief-type character harder.
The stat-dependency system is kinda already fucked as it is with some classes that can just put everything into one score and then be fine alongside clusterfucks like monks that needs just about everything to be high just to stay competitive.

Charisma is another one that's kind of stretched to fill multiple rolls.
Litteral charisma in social interactions? Sure, maybe also involve intelligence and wisdom for certain scenarios where appropriate.
"Force of personality" extending into your magic main-stat? Maybe you could argue for that making some sense for some cases like bard or some clerics maybe along with wisdom or intelligence but it really seems like shoehorning it in.

>Is it possible to be extremely agile but not precise at all with your micro movements? I can't really picture it, but maybe you can.
Especially if you consider non-humans it's not hard to imagine something that lacks fine-manipulators for small detail control but is very agile.
Even just with humans someone can be a parkour champ and not be able to handle more complex small manipulations in general like for things like playing guitar, I use guitar just as an example of the sort of fine manipulation rather than a specific isolated skill like you were talking about.

I pretty much always approve of splitting them. particularly in modern of scifi systems.

Putting dodging & accuracy into the same stat often makes it the most important one.

Stats are meant to be a baseline and not the be all and end all of what the character is capable of.

Dexterity works fine, showing that the character is generally agile and has some precision. Pretty much everyone who is fairly agile is also in some way precise in their movements, they have to be in order to fully capitalize on their ability to dodge, leap around, and such.

The problem you have encountered is mistaking the fine movement of a practiced skill for the general dexterity of an individual. Lock picking is about fine movements, but it's also about having the skill to properly place and mess around with a lock. A general bit of dextrous movement makes this easier, but having actual training is far more important.

Basically, faggots like you keep fucking forgetting the skill system because you mongoloids don't actually play the fucking game.

Skill-less systems do exist and people do play other things than D&D, user.

But the "problem" of Dexterity is very much exclusively a D&D (or vaguely based on D&D) thing. Other systems very much distinguish between the different types of movement, even if it's kind of shit.

But please do enlighten me on what skill less systems also have Dexterity as a stat so I can laugh at the incompetence of those devs.

I almost always split the two, generally using the terms agility and finesse. This has been useful in any game involving firearms so people cant just stick it all in one stat and max out both offensive and defensive capabilities.

In order to further differentiate the two I push the agility stat a little more into the realm of the traditional strength stat. So things like movement speed, flexibility, running, jumping, dodging, as well as most non firearm weapons are associated with Agility.

As for the argument of what is agility/dexterity without finesse, I sort of remember gymnasts I've known. They are super agile, and have awesome gross motor skills, but probably couldn't fold an origami swan very well or draw anything close to a perfect circle. In fact, often times their athleticism has left them with tough callous hands, dull tactile perception, and a general lack of the ability to lightly manipulate objects.

OD&D

Stat and sub-stat system? You have an overall stat, say, Dexterity, and sub-stats for things like Precision, Agility, etc. It'd be, maybe, four sub-stats. Stat/sub-stat systems only really work with dice pool systems, though, so it'd be a White Wolf System, basically.

Nah. That just makes it harder to make characters and reduces the usefulness of the main stats.
>I got +3 to push but -1 to pull and my strength score gives me an overall +1 but my subset push skill only works on square objects so I take a -2 penalty and etc.

Doesn't need to be that in-depth.

Strength could have Moving which is pushing, pulling, and lifting. So you just get, say, three dice for Strength, and another two dice for Moving, for a total of five you roll and try to get over a certain number on for a success, which a total number of successes being necessary to, well, succeed.

Mutants and Masterminds Third edition has Agility and Dexterity as separate stats.

Given how that episode ended I think it's the latter.

So does anima.

in my homebrew the faster you do something the less accurate you are

so no? yes? I dunno.

>not using Veils for precision and agility

If you shave Precision off of Agility then all you're left with is Strength.

Shadowrun has "Reaction" for reaction-time (initiative, driving), "Agility" for being fast and precise with one's body (attacking, sneaking, move speed, gymnastics, lockpicking), "Strength" for physical power (sprinting, lifting, and melee/thrown damage), among others.

They did a good job splitting up the stats. I've never really had any problems with SR's ability scores the same way as with D&D's classic six.

Does your world incorporate a lot of guns and ranged weaponry? Then it might be a good idea to split those stats. If your world is mostly dudes hacking at each other with objects of varying degrees of sharpness, then it likely adds unnecessary complexity to a system. Simulation fags might like that, but your mileage may vary.

Seems like a good idea. You shouldn't get too hung up on realism. Every stat is arbitrary. But your agility/dex stat tends to cover practically everythings, from movement to initiative to attack and defence.

>Is it possible to be extremely agile but not precise at all with your micro movements? I can't really picture it, but maybe you can.
Usain Bolt running away from you after you brought a hammer to his hands.

When you're agile but not precise, you hurt yourself.