/hhg/ Horus Heresy General

All this talk of Anvilus has made me deeply interested in it. I want FW to tell us more about the great Forge that produced so much for the Imperium. And Tigrus for that matter.

It's based on reading everything about how the Mechanicum go about making shit. It's constantly re-iterated that everything is drenched in religious acts. How many times has it mentioned that as even the most basic armour and weapons are made, prayers are chanted and sacred oils applied?

I'm reminded of this quote:

>Strike the first rune upon the engine's casing employing the chosen wrench. Its tip should be anointed with the oil of engineering using the proper incantation when the auspices are correct. Strike the second rune upon the engine's casing employing the arc-tip of the power-driver. If the second rune is not good, a third rune may be struck in like manner to the first. This is done according to the true ritual laid down by Scotti the Enginseer. A libation should be offered. If this sequence is properly observed the engines may be brought to full activation by depressing the large panel marked "ON".

All that just to turn a ship's engines on. That is how the Mechanicum works. And it is not efficient.

Here's Mars. You know, the hardest working planet in technology and technology accessories.

See all that red stuff? That's all the not-factory of the planet. There's nothing being made there.

You're STILL forgetting that for each land raider, on top of the assembly line that puts it all together, you need factories that cast the hulls, factories that assemble the track links, factories that cast the track links, factories that make the pinks that connect the links, factories that manufacture the engines, factories that assemble the parts of the engine, factories that make the guns, factories that make the power plants for the guns, factories that assemble the computers, factories that make the chips that go into the computers, factories that program the chips, factories that make hinges for the ram doors, processing plants that produce the raw materials that you make the hulls, chips, engines, guns, etc., and on top of all that, you need mines to dig up all those resources to produce the ore for the processing plants.

Then there's all the warehouses that store all these materials, conveyor systems to transport materials across the planet, facilities to research new technology, facilities to test new technologies, archives to keep all the info, housing for the hierarchy of the Mechanicum, etc.

Then you need garrisons for the planetary defense force, because you're basically the heart of the Imperium's land raider manufacturing, there's bound to be a sizable force protecting such a valuable asset. That force needs to be provided with guns, armour and equipment. And living space, training space and room for all their tanks and planes.

Then you have billions of workers, who need housing, food and goods. For that you need farms, processing plants, factories, etc. And those places need resources.

For each assembly line shitting out a land raider whenever it can, you have VAAAAAST infrastructure set up to make that one assembly line work.

In fact fuck, I don't even need armored spearhead to put a land raider in every slot of my army, I'll just need breacher troops.

I think you're crossing over the satire of warhammer with the world building facts. Also remember the mechanicum is not the mechanicus of 40k, it was vastly superior in nearly every aspect.

Nearly 1/3rd of the visible ground on that picture are factoriums, that's absolutely massive.

Im genuinely curious how many nations worth of resources you think it takes to make 100 land raiders.

The Mechanicum are just as Religious as the Mechanicus. Their doctrines might have got more complex and convoluted over 10,000 years, but they were there from the start.

So you're saying that planet, which currently has a macro structure surrounding its orbit that masses billions upon billions of tonnes, has issues making enough tanks for 4 million supermen?

>Missing the point this badly
Sometimes I wonder why I even try here

the difference is that the Mechanicum still knows what they're doing and are religious because they don't have to do much to make their factories work.

The mechanicus lack the effectiveness of the mechanicum and are horrendously handicapped in addition.

Mars =/= Anvilus.

And the Ring of Iron only produces Warships. No tank or other production takes place there.

>factoriums

You got a source on ALL that is just manufacturing space and nothing else?

>Im genuinely curious how many nations worth of resources you think it takes to make 100 land raiders.

They don't make 100, they make thousands and thousands. I'd like you to tell me how little space tens of billions of people need in terms of living space and resources to live and work. Land Raiders might be the only thing the planet exports, but they sure as shit ain't importing everything else, unless you can show me a source on this as well. Imagine a train derailing and you have to wait for months of space travel for a new piece of track, train and cars to arrive. And for all that time everything grinds to a halt.

Dude that's not the point, the point is that they could build something so massively difficult that it's a working miracle of engineering that requires god like industrial capacity to accomplish.

Making tanks in comparison is absolutely trivial.

I get your headcanon is extremely strict on trying to justify why marines can't spam land raiders (even though they can) but I think you just have to come to grips that this setting is a satirical joke that uses its scale to enhance the flavor of the universe.

All that the prior anons did was point out that (intentional) absurdity. Bending your brain over backwards to justify your headcanon isn't good for you m8.

And orbital rings are not unique to Mars, Port Maw makes that look like child's play

You do realize Mars was cut off from the Heresy since the beginning, right?

I have literally no idea what point you're trying to make. What the fuck does anything after:

>they don't make 100, they make thousands and thousands

Have to do with the prior topic?

I don't think you could miss the point by any more than that

What was the topic anyway?

Weren't we arguing over the logistics of Anvilus making only Land Raiders and why its loss meant the Emperor decreed only marines could use Land Raiders?

>why marines can't spam land raiders (even though they can)

Where do you get that Marines don't spam land raiders?

The fact that your headcanon has decided that 100% of the manufacturing capacity of the planet is making land raiders. And all the resources and parts to make those land raiders materialize out of thin air and all the work force operates on good will alone.

You know how much work and how many people work to make just one car literally from the ground up? How many factories you need for it, and how much resources you need to feed and clothe all the workers, as well as keep the society itself operational to keep those workers safe and ensure everything runs smoothly.

The original topic was that a single decent forgeworld shitting out land raiders should have been able to drown the legions in excess land raiders, which by all gameplay accounts (holy Epic batsman) they did.

Of course after its loss and the loss of most of the land raider schematics, they became quite scarce. Loyalists could honestly have been using surplus land raiders up until the 41st millennium.

Not sure how this pertains, but after reading through all the FW Books, it seems Anvilus was not just the single biggest hub of Land Raider manufacture, but also it was Tallarn on Steroids, the single biggest storage hub for all Imperial related War Material, and it was torn apart by a colossal Civil War the equal of the Schism of Mars.

I feel like you're moving the point further and further.

Mars is out of the picture and so is Anvillus. Now all the forge worlds that are left not only have to manufacture everything they've been making so far, but pick up the slack from Mars AND make more room for land raiders. And do it fast. And all the Army units that used to get land raiders now need new transports, so you have to increase non-land raider production as well to meet with that demand.

See how it's all tied to one another?

Except that's literally the fluff of Anvillus, 3 entire forgeworlds were dedicated to making only land raiders.

I realize how many people are required to perform industrial functions. I just think you underestimate what a whole high tech global population is capable of.

My one and only point has been that having an entire world dedicated to making land raiders should have allowed an enormous surplus of armor for the legions. That's it. I have legitimately no idea what you're arguing about besides that single point.

I fully understand Anvillus and it's land raider plans/STC got trashed, that's not in contention.

From what I gather, the would have been a massive surplus of Land Raiders, but they were kept in huge warehouses on Anvilus itself. So when the planets fell to civil war, tens of thousands of Land Raiders kept in storage were lost.

>Except that's literally the fluff of Anvillus, 3 entire forgeworlds were dedicated to making only land raiders.

So your argument is that Anvillus made NOTHING else, besides land raiders. All other things were imported and 100% of manufacturing capacity was dedicated to land raiders? Food, clothing, machinery, tools, parts, fuel, etc. were all imported?

>I just think you underestimate what a whole high tech global population is capable of.

And I think you're vastly underestimating the complexity of land raiders, the finesse of Imperial manufacturing even during the Heresy, and thinking that the only thing holding back production is the speed in which tanks can be put together.

You do realize Marine access to Land Raiders was NEVER a problem, right? It was everyone else who got denied land raiders. Marines got to play with them all day long, even after Anvillus got taken out.

That makes perfect sense. Plus again, it really does seem like the legions had a fuckton of land raiders available pre-heresy.

Dude I don't write the fluff. When FW says the entire point of Anvillus is to create land raiders and that they made most of the land raiders for the trillions of men in the imperial army, I take them at their word.

Yeah they'll probably manufacture basic necessities too and yes forgeworlds import most of their food. That doesn't really take away all that much from their ability to shit out WW1 tanks.

Again, not a point in contention. You can create the biggest straw man you'll like and it won't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

Look, I have no idea what you're even arguing anymore, when you bring up non-issues. So, I dunno, good day?

I think you've worked yourself up into such a nerd rage that you forgot what anyone was arguing about in the first place.

Pretty apt for a Mechanicum discussion, desu

This
Was the original topic, which by all accounts was true before Anvillus fell. Marines could use land raiders like rhinos when they felt it was appropriate.

I think all the other spittle flying came from some anons misunderstanding of the discussion, rather than any actual disagreements

>Plus again, it really does seem like the legions had a fuckton of land raiders available pre-heresy.

It's almost like they had 3 whole planets making them, doesn't it? Would be a shame if something was to happen to those planets and in general to the whole society that would make it more difficult to supply forces with said tanks.

>Dude I don't write the fluff.

You don't, but you do make awfully lot assumptions based on it.

>WW1 tanks

Didn't know WW1 tanks were environmentally sealed, equipped with high-energy weapons and reactor, smart-AI that can operate the entire tank all on its own, multi-layered armour of scifi materials, etc.

Please don't project so hard.

>It's almost like they had 3 whole planets making them, doesn't it? Would be a shame if something was to happen to those planets and in general to the whole society that would make it more difficult to supply forces with said tanks.

That's...yeah actually pretty much exactly my point.

What are we arguing about

I literally have no idea what we're disagreeing on my dude.

>I literally have no idea what we're disagreeing on my dude.

I have no idea, people just started bitching about Anvillus not making enough Land Raiders to last the Imperium for a million years and other forge worlds just not picking up the slack and exchanging a few escorts worth of manufacturing resources and machinery to make all the stuff a legion would every need. Stuff like that. Fuck if I know who says what, you people look same to me.

Diverting from the discussion of forgeworld and GW's notoriously bad attempts at communicating scale with incorrect numbers...

Recently started a no-tanks raven guard force, and so far the first few games have been promising.

One of the units I did add to my forgeworld order against some advice was a set of jump-pack destroyers, because I thought they looked pretty cool and seemed to fit fairly well with the "No hold barred against traitors" theme I'm trying to go for. The force as a whole is having markings done to match the organizations laid down in the novellas and deliverance lost.

The question then is how to get the most out of these destroyers on the table? a lot of the advice I'm running across is telling me to just shelve them except during Zone Mortalis games, but that seems too simplistic.

I do have the spare parts for a moritat or vigilator in my bitz box, and I saw some much older articles about running them with one of those.

I'd like to run them from 2k and up, rites or war in use are fairly flexible (mostly decap, pride of the legion, recon, drop assault vanguard)

Here's the thing. That's not even Mars during the Heresy. That's Mars in M41.

This is Mars in M31, from the novella Cybernetica.

Hey Steve, remember when Mars was green?

Jump pack vigilator, they need every fucking advantage they can get and cameoline + move through cover will let them live way longer by jumping into terrain cover.

Jump packs + rad missiles sounds baller as fuck desu.

Don't rad missiles and rad grenades stack? Capitalize on that

thoughts on vigilator and siege breaker together in the same squad with them? its a massive primarch-level points sink, but guarntees delivery of two phosphex bombs and a rad missile turn one. (also they'll have shrouding since I default to recon company RoW)

It took nearly a month for my tiny package of white scars kits to make it to Washington from FW, which is odd because it only took my atrapos 2 weeks.

A good option probably is as few upgrades as possible and charging them into units alongside things like assault marines to really get the use out of the rad grenades.

Or just a phospex grenade carrier sergant with the rest as ablative wounds.

Or go whatever might as well go all-in on paying too many points for one power armour unit, take rad missile launchers and go hunt rapiers and marines. It isn't that bad if you manage to keep at least one rad missile launchers dude alive, because those thing can still get a rediculeous kill count over the course of a game.

>Sudden realizes he totally forgot to field-test his destroyer unit after having painted them

Fuck the siege breaker, you're going to be hitting T2 marines.

>destroyers can't even take power weapons like assault marines

What's the fucking point

Rad missile launchers only reduce the T value of targets after they suffered a wound. As in single models. As in the majority of targets are going to be too dead for it to matter anyway.

That's fuckin gay m8.

Still you put castellax down to T5, that's gotta count for something.

Pls no bully first model

Imagine shooting them twice. Toughness 3 castellax, who's gonna cry now ?

It doesn't stack with itself.

Get multiple characters/units with rad grenades to charge a unit. Each unit reduced their toughness by 1.

3 characters and, say, a destroyer unit charging most Marine units would kill them before any blows were exchanged purely by reducing their toughness to 0.

unfortunately castellax also get some defence against phosphex and rad weaponry, so that doesn't work well as a target.

>cybernetic resilince means successful poison/fleshbane has to be rerolled

Oh no, I have to reroll my 2+ wound roll.

that would be rad missile only, which will generate at most 2 hits, phosphex is poisoned 3+, where the cybernetic resilience has a much greater impact.

plus even with all that, they will kick your shit in with the innate AP2 from being MCs, a problem no other target will give you.

Test.

picture quality is shit

at least you drilled your barrel/10

>Word Bearer standing on a field of shit.

I guess it counts as camo or something.

The Breaking of Anvillus is one block on the FW's HH event chart.

Rad grenades don't stack with more rad grenades, especially not in the same unit.

They aren't in the same unit. Each grenadier would charge individually.

I actually like Stirland Mud though? user just needs to add a wash and drybush and it'll look better, tbqh.

Had a battle earlier. I'm a Word Bearer, fought an Iron Warrior. Got my ass kicked. Only 1500 points

>Turn 1, night fighting
>Move my rhinos, contemptors, and Sicaran forward
>Manage to kill one of three rapiers with a contemptor, nothing else of note gets done
>IW turn
>One contemptor gets wiped, one gets immobilized, one hull point off the sicaran, one rhino explodes
>WB Turn 2
>Move rhino toward the rapiers, fucker has a Domitar-Ferrum sitting near them. Disembark, shoot plasma and bolters at it, one wound
> Sicaran also shoots, does 2 more wounds
>Contemptor and melta vets kill some tacticals
>IW Turn 2
>Domitar charges vets, lock that bitch in combat for two turns
>Havocs with lascannons finish my sicaran
>He forgets to Rapier
>WB Turn 3
>Gal Vorbak deepstrike near table edge, no scatter
>Shoot at Rapiers, do nothing
>Havocs shoot at contemptor, do nothing
>WB Turn 4
>Charge Gal Vorbak at Rapiers, none survive
>Domitar cleans up plasma vets
>Melta vets and contemptor whittle at a tactical squad
>IW Turn 4
>Tacticals and Domitar shoot at Gal Vorbak, killing one
>Lascannons clean up Melta Vets
>Domitar charges Gal Vorbak
>Kills them, but loses the fellow with the cortex controller in a challenge

Called the game there, as all I had was an immobilized contemptor. I feel like the board needed more terrain.

Wash the red maybe. the metal looks good!

Whats the most terror-weapony LoW for night lords, excluding edgy batman?

Cerastus Knight with the huge flamer and reaper chainfist.

Nothing says terror than the giant robot that burned down your hometown and tore apart anything that got in its way.

typhon. hands down.

if you want to retain your friends, stormblade is nice, as is the fellglaive. honestly consider what you're trying to achieve with the unit just like any other slot.

Okay here's my 3000/3000 white scars list. Its fully WYSIWYG so I feel pretty happy about that. I've also come around to enjoying the look of twin linked heavy bolters, sue me.

HQ (610pts)
Legion Centurion (110pts)
Artificer Armour, Power Glaive
Consul
Vigilator
Legion Praetor (500pts)
Artificer Armour, Cyber-hawk, Digital Lasers, Iron Halo, Paragon Blade, Power Fist, Space Marine Bike with Twin-linked Bolter
Legion Command Squad
5x Combat Shield, 4x Legion Space Marine Chosen, 5x Power Weapon, Space Marine Bikes with Twin-linked Bolters
Elites (575pts)
Apothecarion Detachment (85pts)
Legion Apothecary
Additional Wargear
Augury Scanner, Power Glaive, Space Marine Bike with twin-linked bolters
Contemptor-Cortus Class Dreadnought Talon (290pts)
Cortus Dreadnought
Chainfist with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter
Cortus Dreadnought
Chainfist with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter
Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought (200pts)
Havoc Launcher, Twin-Linked Lascannon x 2
Troops (680pts)
Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron (150pts)
Plasma Cannon, 3x Space Marine Sky Hunters
Legion Outrider Squad (165pts)
3x Legion Space Marine Outrider, Twin-linked Plasma gun
Legion Outrider Squad (365pts)
10x Legion Space Marine Outrider
Outrider Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Melta Bombs, Power Glaive
Power Weapon
Power Sword
Power Weapon
Power Sword
Power Weapon
Power Sword
Fast Attack (690pts)
Legion Attack Bike Squadron (100pts)
2x Legion Attack Bike, 2x MultiMelta
Legion Land Speeder Squadron (275pts)
Legion Land Speeder
Graviton Gun
Legion Land Speeder
Graviton Gun
Legion Land Speeder
Graviton Gun
Legion Land Speeder
Graviton Gun
Legion Land Speeder
Graviton Gun
Legion Seeker Squad (315pts)
9x Legion Seeker Space Marines
Additional Wargear
Nuncio-vox
Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier
MultiMelta

Lord of War (445 points)

Knight Atrapos, occulars
Legion
Legiones Astartes
V: White Scars, Loyalist
Rite of War
Chogorian Brotherhood

Jesus fuck Battlescribe that is NOT how I formatted that. Sorry guys.

Alpha Legion Tartaros w/Banestrike and LCs for mopping up Sv3, good or no?
Other stuff is mainly Combi Seekers and Volkite Reavers.

Lightning claws or even just power weapons work fine for that job.

Siege Breaker
Delegatus, Creeping Death

Veterans, 5 combi grenade launchers, snoipahs 10 men, Rhino, Hflamer
Veterans, 6 combi grenade launchers, snoipahs, 9 men Rhino, Hflamer

Breacher Squad, 15 men, 3 flamers
Breacher Squad, 15 men, 3 flamers

Heavy Support Squad, Autocannons, 8 men
Sicaran Tank Hunter
Sicaran Tank Hunter

War Machine Detachment
Praetor Launcher with Firestorm Munitions, 2 Heavy Flamers
Dominus Triple Bombard, 2 Heavy Flamers

This look like a fun list? i'm considering building it and using it for a campaign, the idea behind it is fog shrouded infantry advance while the artillery shreds the fortifications

Or maybe you suffered from a lack of faith.

shite, forget an apothecarion detachment, 2 apoths, they're chilling with the breachers

looks really solid. nice mix of anti-tank and anti-infantry, both elites and chaff-clearing.

-1 fluff point for including dreads when white scars hate them (something something trapped in a box instead of allowed to freely ride)

8/10 would have fun playing against.

decently thematic for death guard, what points level ar you playing at? I'd be concerned about the 2 war machines getting knocked out early or incapped by enemy sicarians.

3k, i dont see it being the most powerful list but it seemed to pack at least a bit of a punch, the big boys are probably hanging out in/behind terrain so not terribly worried about sicarans getting to them, and if they do, its a turn where my sicarans can burn theirs out

what are your guards against infantry that can infiltrate/scout or outflank inside your minimum range?

I play raven guard and that's something that I often see as weaknesses in artillery heavy lists, where there is plenty of advancing firepower and things that are good at range but cannot handle something appearing danger close or inside lines.

one of the better options with creeping death is to swap the autocannon squad for some grave wardens. or bunker some seekers in the middle of your lines and use them as counterfire.

minimum range only applies to firing as a barrage weapon, you can direct fire within minimum range, you just dont get the benefit of barrage, ie ignoring terrain and blast flips
that said, i'll definitely consider that, though what exactly is the benefit of the grave wardens in creeping death, as they dont benefit from the rules at all really

like the silver details

creeping death means you'll generally be slow, and grave wardens have a nasty effective range for what they pack, while also being decent backline/midline CQC

i see what you're saying, though it feels like taking the siege breaker is a bit of a waste without a heavy weapon squad

Too many wrecks falling on my formations.

use seeker counterfire instead, or take a different consul. Master of signal comes with his own bombardment, and when attached to seekers would allow them to volley special bolt rounds at outflankers with interceptor

I felt a little like that, but it's just a tax. You shouldn't have to rearrange your whole list just to make it feel like you're using a rule slightly more.

My Siegebreaker just walks up and hits stuff with his hammer.

have to take a siege breaker for creeping death
thats true, i'll tinker around a bit and see what i can do

I'd rather have the access to tanks than jimmy everything so one dude can sit with some other dudes. 3 Vindicators or 9 missile launchers and a CC HQ?

my bad, forgot creeping death required a SB.

he can take an augury scanner, so you can use the autocannons as retaliation fire.

ultimately you'll need to find a way to either have enough fire (preferably with interceptor) to clear away anything that moves at you, or have a unit with the capability to charge and tie them up without being useless if you face no such threat.

This. I said "multiple units/characters." Rad Grenades work on per unit basis. So 10 units with rad grenades charging the same target will cause the target unit to lose 10 points of toughness.

This does feel like the sort of unintended rules consequence that will (a) be FAQ'd should FW learn about it and (b) lose you friends.

that sounds...

rad-ical

It's been in the game since rad grenades became a thing once more (5e Codex: Grey Knights?)

I mean, it still requires you to get 4+ units with rad grenades into combat with the enemy. 3 characters with rad grenades and a unit with rad grenades in a land raider could do it. The ICs separate from the squad upon disembarking and then they all assault the target enemy squad. Seeing that the toughness is lowered merely by launching the assault (not that they have to reach the target), at long as they all do it, any T4 or lower model will get wiped out.

It just seems odd that GW have always been against automatic kills (destroyer weapons/stomps bounce off 1/6th of the time, S10 fails to wound T1 1/6th of the time, characteristic tests will always be passed at least 1/6th of the time, etc.) so my feeling is they'd fix it if they were aware of it. So, yeah, I think it's bullshit, and I wouldn't play against someone that tries this.

the reason they've never bothered is because it is so hard to do under most circumstances as to be rendered pure theory.

Even in current 30k I can't think of an easy way to achieve such a result on a whole unit with regularity since techmarines are not ICs but a separate unit. I guess if you felt inclined you could take 2 forge lords and an iron father and give them all jump packs attached to a destroyer squad.....

>attached to a destroyer squad.....

Unless you separate them during the movement phase, it'll count as 1 rad grenade in the assault.