Will spess navies in the future use Naval Terms or is this some weird fluke of Sci-Fi?

Will spess navies in the future use Naval Terms or is this some weird fluke of Sci-Fi?

Has any military have any sort of official statement as regards to this?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronaut_ranks_and_positions
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Space_Command
youtube.com/watch?v=knQifmxdnY4
youtube.com/watch?v=e-6YxhTJzlA
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Enterprise
projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

As of now, USA and Russian Military's space stuff are handled by their respective air forces. So air force ranks.

China is an oddball: their spess shit is handled by the Rocket Forces (read: Nukes), so Army ranks.

This may also help.
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronaut_ranks_and_positions

I don't know why it would be considered a weird fluke. People have considered sailing the heavens long before man first flew.

>Has any military have any sort of official statement as regards to this?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Space_Command
The US military considers it to be the jurisdiction of their airforce.

Funny thing is that sci-fi may inspire them to use naval terms. It could very well turn out to be a case of life imitating art.

aviation terms sound cooler anyway, at least in regard to locations on the craft.

youtube.com/watch?v=knQifmxdnY4

"He is a Rescue Technician"

It'll be it's own thing based on Astronaut traditions.

This, by the time we have a space fleet the people who built it and the people who crew it will be irrevocably molded by pop sci-fi and its use of navel terms. Hell its happening already with how most of NASA's current eggheads grew up on Trek TOS

Considering navies use a mix of fresh terms with terms taken from what was originally land based things, but with the word sea in front of it, prett sure space can end up being called anything depending on a combination of why and what trends are prevailing.

Yeah, even millennia later they will still call it starboard and whatever that other thing is called instead of right and left like normal person would.
The only difference is they will also develop two new, even more obtuse, terms for up and down.

Air forces use terms from navies like "port" "bulkhead" n shiet. They call formations for unknown aircraft "(x number of) ship formations."

Ranks are a different thing though.

Starboard = right
Port = left
Bow = foward
Stern = back
Dorsal = up
Ventral = down

It's just tactical positions because facing is relative to observer and is easier to find than navigational command. It's also a good way to separate the two.

This shit is just practical, it has nothing to do with tradition. No reason to completely replace a system that works.

It will spawn out of whatever arm controls nuclear weapons or the aerospace forces.

Certainly not navy types of ships. Terms such as Destroyer, Cruiser, Battleship are increasingly obsolete in the modern era.

I believe it'll be air force derived ranks and terminology, with a healthy dose of astronaut specific stuff integrated as traditions develop.

I'm curious about how ship types will be designated in a space force that has an air force lineage...

A vessel capable of extended operations away from a supporting base may not be a cruiser, it may be a LRP/I, or "long range patrol/independent."

I don't see why those terms would change, they are already broad classifications.

We still have many of those, technology just has antiquated their roles. The roles still exist, they're just waiting for technology to resserect them.

Im sure even battle ships will find purpose again once rail guns become more efficient, even if it just means a bigger platform for bigger guns.
They only lost favor because their effective range was limited, when you can strike 800 nm in about 28 secs or intercept missiles on a minutes notice things change.

>stern=back
I THINK YOU MEAN 'AFT YE MANGY CUR

The Air Force currently has jurisdiction over space because our current space crafts align closely to their established doctrines.

But if we reach the point where we are sending out large ships with large crews on long voyages, the Navy will begin to take over. Because that follows more closely to Naval doctrine.

So, Veeky Forums, Fleet Admiral, (Lord) High Admiral or Grand Admiral? What's the best title for the commander of a (space) navy?

First Space Lord

I always thought they would become Rail cruisers, since they would be designed as do-it-all medium ships rather than firepower-first heavy ships

>some of the tiles on the hatch are missing
>>so?
>shouldn't we be worried?
>>no, who would care about some tiles?
>so why did we put them there in the first place?
>>I don't know, comrade, so they would break loose, fall down and hit the rocket?

>implying by that time we won't be living in a fully automated luxury space communism
The most flamboyant spacegay

Directions internal to a ship will probably use these terms - but directions to ship motion will likely be more like a submarine than a surface ship

Instead of just a 360 degree "heading", you'll have a pair of 360 headings - set in orthogonal planes relative to some reference point (earth? The sun?) and so things like trim and bubble might enter in with variations based on WHICH of the degree circles you're referencing.

Disclaimer - I am not a professional sailor

Also, you have Prograde, and Retrograde - in the direction of the ships travel and the reverse of that.

Likely will refer to Bow/Fore or Aft/Stern as appropriate - because most ships will have an obvious orientation when accelerating

>The navy begins to take over.

More likely a new branch with aspects of both the navy and air force will be created, combining the best traits of each branch, while cutting the worst. It's the only way to preserve a balance between the other branches and keep one from getting too powerful. Interservice rivalry for budgets is the ultimate way to prevent a coup.

I also see a space military running ships more like the air force runs a bomber crew. Every crew member would be a highly trained specialist. Egalitarianism is a trait the Navy could really use. They don't trust their enlisted with anything.

Yep.

>Egalitarianism is a trait the Navy could really use

Star Trek tried to do this with every Tom Paris and Harry an officer. Which makes O'Brien a real basketcase.

In any case, the IRL Air Force is unusual in that Officers (pilots etc) do the actual fighting while enlisted stay behind and support them. That's the only reason for the so called egalitarianism on board the aircraft itself. Once we get to the stage where any fuck up from Ireland can enlist into the Space Forces as Space Lift Operator 2nd Class, then you'll see separation of officers and enlisted on board a spacecraft.

>Star Trek tried to do this with every Tom Paris and Harry an officer.

Yeah, because Roddenberry was disgusted with how poorly the navy treated its enlisted.

>That's the only reason for the so called egalitarianism on board the aircraft itself.

Eh, it's in every facet of the air force. They can get away with it because it's the most preferred branch and can afford to be picky on who they take in. The Coast Guard is the same way.

Keep service in the space force prestigious and treat them almost human, and you'll never have to deal with the dregs of society.

To add to this, the very word "craft" referred to boats exlusively until 1850, when the term "aircraft" was invented, and it still sounded funny to people for the better part of a century before the generations that always imagined a flying boat when hearing the word died off.

That's why it's especially funny when some scifi spergsters insist that because space isn't an ocean, we must call spaceships spacecraft instead. They've never heard of semantic shift.

Is the same true for submarines?

That seems the most space-like of all naval environments

I'd like to see something where you've got multiple nations space forces interacting or are in fairly close contact with each other, and they all have different ideas on how to run a space force: some have it as its own branch, some have it as a subordinate branch, some have it as part of their air force, etc.

Happened with the air forces in WWI, nothing interesting really.

I'd say it was quite an interesting time - as well as the service oddities (the first british mechanised forces were RN Air Service armoured cars, for example) you've also got people trying all sorts of new things with weapons, trying both airships and aeroplanes.

And that's just one nation's forces.

First Space Lord-Admiral of the Fleets

Early Tier - Fleet Admiral
Early-Mid Tier - High Admiral
Mid Tier - Lord Admiral
Late-Mid Tier - High Lord Admiral
Late Tier - Grand Admiral
Even Later Tier - Grand Lord Admiral
End Tier - Supreme Admiral of The Fleet
Very Special End Tier - Supreme Lord Admiral of The Fleets

>Very Special End Tier - Supreme Lord Admiral of The Fleets
Very special indeed

To be precise it not different from Supreme Admiral of The Fleet.

The only difference is that they elect one from the Supreme Admirals as one Supreme Lord Admiral of The Fleets in order to get the job done in severe situations.

After that, the Supreme Lord Admiral of The Fleets stop being Supreme Lord Admiral and is back to being just Supreme Admiral of The Fleet.

I'd say have a title (like ), and then have a rank - so if your navy is small, you have your Chief of the Navy or your First Space Lord, an they're the professional head of the navy even if you only have enough ships for them to be a Commodore - it avoids having over-inflated ranks, and also means that if you have a huge navy you can have multiple Fleet Admirals or Grand Admirals or whatever

Like a roman-style dictator, or the 5-star positions in the US forces (though those were also theatre commands)

It honestly depends how well the technology scales.

Multiple smaller platforms are great but if you are trying to inch out range they may need more power so bigger platforms are required.
The whole purpose of Battleships to begin with was to out-strike your enemy over distance, carriers just did that better. If battleships offer better anti-air or faster response, carriers will have to capitulate many of their old roles.

Stem is actually the front, and it's not a location you go to, it's a specific part of the bow that projects off of the keel. You hear it most often in the phrase "stem to stern", which is a naval simile and not actually part of common jargon. No captain will say "go stemward" or "go to the stem", they'll say "go fore" or maybe "go to the bow".
Fore and aft are directions; fore is towards the bow, and aft is towards the stern.

Bow and stern are locations; the bow is the front part of the ship, which the stem is connected to and just forward of, while the stern is the back of the ship.

Do it like the Americans. The smaller the title, the more important the person. The bigger the title, the less relevant they are.

The Secretary, the President, the General/Admiral= Big deal

The vice undersecretary of the assistant secretary= Some big-headed desk-jockey in a cubicle in the capital who doesn't matter.

>the General/Admiral= Big deal
The doesn't work, there's a shit-ton of Generals and Admirals - especially Generals, when you recall that the USAF, Army and USMC all use General as their senior ranks

When dealing informally, most senior ranks have the issue that the top 3-4 will be variants of "General" "Admiral", and saying the full titles get's clunky, so your "General" might be a one-star or four-star.

Like this, but with more brass youtube.com/watch?v=e-6YxhTJzlA

>High Lord Admiral
It's the other way around, it's the Lord High Admiral

Though 40k occasionally has one of the High Lords that's an Admiral, but not very often (it's one of the rotating seats), and even then he's got "Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy" as his title.

OK, duly noted.

Have to fix this later on.

What about the Ultimate High Grand Supreme Lord Admiral of the Republic/Empire/Whatever

Just make it "The" Admiral, and require that all official documents write the "the" in bold underlined italics one size larger than the rest of the text. Maybe in a different color as well

>Will spess navies in the future use Naval Terms or is this some weird fluke of Sci-Fi?
It's actually a fluke of many of the early science fiction authors having served in the Navy, which at the time was the 'advanced' part of the military. Space issues are now handled by either a specialized branch of the military or the air force (in Russia's case, it's both!).

I can confirm that USAF spacers use AF terminology rather than Navy terminology. It's hard to say whether this will stay true in the future, though, as almost all space development has been privatized.

Stern is the rearmost bulwark of a vessel, for the record. The rear of a ship is "aft."

Hah I know where that is.

No, it's a decommissioned SS-19 silo.

>the Navy will begin to take over
No they won't, lol. The Air Force got space because the Navy got to keep their planes. There's no way the Air Force would let the Navy go back on the deal.

Depends. If you're going for realism, it's General of the (Aero)Space Forces. Or (Aero)Space Chief Marshal, perhaps.

FWIW, airmen assigned to space missions in the USAF can technically be addressed as spacemen.

>If you're going for realism, it's General of the (Aero)Space Forces. Or (Aero)Space Chief Marshal
That's boring though.
Admiral >>>>>>>>>> General

imagine the committees it would take to decide the font, size and colour...

Tough titties, kiddo. The Navy made its play and they won in the short term (Top Gun) and lost in the end (literally everything else).

I think this is an interesting thing to bring up because people are thinking of space flight as if ships fly like in star wars. The reality is orbital navigation around a single gravitational body, atmospheric/local translation and interstellar flight will all use different forms of propulsion and likely different navigation procedures/parameters.

tl;dr

Parking
Combat
Interstellar
All probably handled differently may even have multiple crews that specialise in each on the same ship.

>Hell its happening already with how most of NASA's current eggheads grew up on Trek TOS
>Happening

Buddy, after what Enterprise do you think the shuttle was named after? It sure wasn't the aircraft carrier.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Enterprise

This was in '77

Having the enlisted being called "astronaut" instead of the far superior Spaceman (which also fits airman and seaman)

>It's actually a fluke of many of the early science fiction authors having served in the Navy

And world leaders. See Pic.

Don't forget SEALs and the cult of the Marines. The Navy has always had a better relationship with the media than all the other branches.

It helps them in multiple ways, Heard about the HUGE corruption case going on the Pacific? Notice the Chair Force is getting yelled at by congress over the F-35 when the problems are stemming from the Navy/Marine versions? The Zumwalt's? Their PR teams have the press eating out of their hands.

something about manning those big ships makes everybody weak in the knees

Star-Lord

Who?

...

For a while Russian military united Space (which was born from ICBM control, as in Chinese cause) and Anti-Air into Aerospace Defense. Make sense, since "army marches on its stomach", so it's built around infrastructure like radars, spysats or other long-range sensors.

I have serious doubts that interstellar wars will be fought by fleets, space ships or fighters. Rather it will be a war of pure planetary devastation. Likely to be fought with automated rockets and meteors.
Do you guys have any grasp of orbital mechanics and the shear velocities that space ships travel at? Space battles like in star wars and star trek are pure fantasy.

Wheres that pic from? Its retarded to call everyone sergeant or something-something-sergeant.

as much fun as lobbing tetraton rocks at your opponent like so much interstellar buckshot is, you probably dont want to reduce the planet to cinders, nor do you want to give your enemy the bright idea to do the same

and the rock might end up being a lot more expensive than you think, since you have to render it resistant to counter measures

Just like we nuke the civilian population every time we go to war, I assume.

I'd imagine such a unique operating environment will breed its own spacer speak real fucking fast. And given it'll be in space it's gonna have lots of organisational stuff and hi-tech equipment there'll be even more TLA than there normally are in the military. People will speak entirely in TLA basically.

This. First Sea Lord is such a rad title and I wish the tradition to continue.

The RL military calls everything 'seregent'. The chart just has special duty titles in addition to normal ranks.

He has a point. Space battles would have more in common with BVR missile engagements between fighters than ships of the line.

Well yeah, engagements would probably be jousting competitions where fleets took charges at each other so that they can get into and out of weapons range as quickly as possible.

Everything after that would just be who's got the most missiles Vs the better point defence.

First person to run out of missiles or ships before the opponent loses basically.

>shear velocities
I'd want low shear velocities in my spaceships.

Actually if shear has reached a level that it's got a velocity then something has gone very wrong.


Also, planets we can use are pretty rare, wars of planetary devastation would likely be as common as full-scale nuclear wars are today.

>Is the same true for submarines?

No.

Ah, what's the situation of enlisted like on subs?

How much egalitarianism is there in that cramped environment, and how highly trained are the enlisted?

At least, I assume not everyone on a sub is an officer

You can't really be BVR in space, though practical range is another matter entirely.
Probably even with lasers, though they'd have the best time of it.

I think they'll invent a bunch of new terms. Military branches compete for budget share, so making sure they're distinct from the other branches is a big deal. Look at US Marines vs US Army. They're both ground forces and neither has gone to war on US soil for what, centuries now? Both do things differently just to be different. Uniforms, language, all that stuff.

The space force is likely to fall into similar practices, given they'll emerge at a point when terrestrial military branches still exist and will have to fight for their share of defence spending as well as develop a pride and pomp that the military seem to go in for.

It'll probably be Air Force. Since we live on a water planet, in most regards, the "Air Force" has been mostly supplanted by Naval Air Force attaches in the US. These days the Air Force doesn't actually DO anything except long range high altitude bombings and dealing with space.

They desperately need a new field, frankly we should give it to them. If the space program had the same budget as the military we'd be on Mars already, and since the military can justify basically ANY expenditure (f35 lol) they'll just keep building shit and sending it out there to continue justifying their existence.

The best way to get things done is the free market, but it's slow. The second best way is by tricking a government bureaucracy into believing that it will lose funding if things don't happen. That gets shit done FAST.

The best part is that the Starship Enterprise was named after the space shuttle in Universe.

>navies use a mix of fresh terms with terms taken from what was originally land based things, but with the word sea in front of it
What the fuck are you even talking about

could be a mix
you have the fore and aft but the whole main body is called the fuselage, the kitchen is the galley but the command area is the cockpit, stuff like that

General.

It's the Air Force goddamnit.

those ranks are ridiculous

Admirable

>not Marshal

Gross.

Word of wisdom that nobody ever fucking heads, I'm combat and hazard situations all crew on a ship should have their fucking suits ready to seal up

Lord of Admirals

Though werent the show writers inspired to name it the Enterprise because of the carrier?

Super Nintendo

Doubt it, thing would remain nautical but they would come up with new terms as well.

Railer - Ship built around railgun.
Orbiter - Vessel which mainly orbits a planet.

ect, ect

>Wheres that pic from? Its retarded to call everyone sergeant or something-something-sergeant.
That's literally the USAF enlisted rank structure. But the Army's the same way. You become a sergeant and you're a sergeant until you're Sergeant Major. Master Sergeants whine about it, but "sergeant" is the correct form of address.

>He has a point. Space battles would have more in common with BVR missile engagements between fighters than ships of the line.
The Navy has some BVR expertise, but the Air Force is where it truly resides. F-on-F engagement is something the Air Force does unequivocally better than anyone else in the world, including the Navy.

>You can't really be BVR in space

As opposed to what,eyeballs?

Thw USAF is running most of the ISR in the world. The Chair Force has stuff to do, its just not flashy and high-visibility like other branches are. Look up the -135 platforms besides tankers.

You want silly ranks, look at the Navy, they include their job titles. No other branch is as convoluted.

Heeds. (like heed my warning).

Heeeeeds

Unless you mean, "heads up".

Heed.

Sorry, but this triggered my autism.

BVR is beyond visible range, right?
In space you can see for days. Literally.

Should be Marshal - really, USAF ranks are no fun, in the commonwealth air forces you get shit like Wing Commander and Air Commodore

You realize space is fucking huge, right? Like its a hit or miss if we would even detect a near-earth asteroid even if we were looking for it.

People BVR all the time in the air and the ground, there's zero reason to go back from an established order of battle that's works just fine. Going back to relying on only your eyes would be repeating Vietnam's air engagement rules.

All right OP. I'll give you this holy grail.
projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/

Yeah, not at all saying you should be waiting for eyeball confirmation, that WOULD be stupid, but visual range in space is huge with practically nothing to block LOS or distort the light - there's no horizon in space, after all

That's presuming there's even enough light to see anything. Most images beyond Mars you see of the solar system have been through extreme photo-editing.

Multi-planar interleaved causality loops? I bet Daniels did this.

Forgot to add:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens

Both are named after the Carrier which is named after the Schooner, which is named after a fancy way to say "thing we did."

There will not be space navies. At the point where human civilization has the ability and inclination to make interstellar vessels, it will be a stateless post-scarcity civilization.

Daily reminder that 'Espatier' is the best name for any form of space-borne infantry and 'space marines' or just 'marines' for space troops is retarded.

Lord Marshal

what does "Espatier" mean?

Literally French for 'spacer'