My players say I'm biased because all the villains in our games are ugly/monstrous looking or have ugly/edgy powers...

Thought you were talking about Israel there for a minute.
What's the difference these days, eh?

>pro-isis, anti-U.S.
>heroes look like isis
>spelling mistakes
go and stay go

if you can't understand the actual point of his post, that the line between only understandable and also relatable is fuzzy at best, I don't think you have any right to claim spelling errors as proof of stupidity

I was talking about Israel too, and yes, that's my point. Israel started out as Jew-ISIS, it became recognized as a state only because the U.S. supported it, which is only one small part of our multi-generational campaign of shitting on the middle east and its people.

And, do be clear, I'd LOVE to call ISIS the badguys here. I would much rather live in a world where the U.S. was the goodguys, or where it at least wasn't the badguys. it would be nice if we were at least good enough that we could point to a terrorist organization and say, "Hey, we're bad, but we aren't THAT bad!" But that isn't the world I find myself living in.

Anway, that's enough /pol/ for one thread, at least until the next time some idiot tries to portray the U.S. as good and its enemies as evil in their discussions of make-believe ethics.

...

...

Subtle

Make a gorgeous angel destroy a city of uggos, let your party investigate the ruins of the city and talk to maimed survivors who'll tell them she held a crusade against them because of their nature.

After they beat her reveal the city was a demonic cult and everyone they talked with were demons, then lecture them about stereotypes existing for a reason and deconstructivism being the tool of subversives that seek to dismantle society.

Good show chap.

>all the villains in our games are ugly/monstrous looking or have ugly/edgy powers
>It's not as if ALL of my villains are ugly fucks
Quoi?

If you go out of your way to describe how ugly the villains are, it may sound very awkward.

We actually have an (amateur) male model in our group.

There usually nothing inherently wrong with most tropes. You do run into problems when you poorly implement or over use them though. Maybe your players are overly sensitive to this trope. Maybe you focus just a little too much time detailing it instead of other more interesting means of characterization such as why they are doing what they are doing. How often is ugliness a defining character feature for your villains? Does such a superficial trait deserve that much attention?

No, both as a stylistic choice or as a reflection of causes, forms and effects, it is a fair stance.

I would rebut that it depends and how he does it. If he is spending the first paragraph introducing a villain by describing how ugly it is for 2/3 of his villains then that is going to get boring quick. Even if he goes on to describe a great villain after that, he's lost his players interest in that first paragraph so they've probably tuned out the rest.

Go away Jihadist scum!

Blame it on the PCs for NOT having ugly characters. Ugly characters are the shit.

I bet you are the type of person who also took "A Modest Proposal" literally and were horrified that Swift suggested eating babies...

Give me 1 (ONE) reason why we shouldn't.

What take it literally or actually eat the babies of poor people.
Well for the take it literally part it's because it was clearly satirical and trying to convey a point in a thought provoking manner.
As to the eating poor peoples babies it's because of health concerns. That would be a difficult to regulate system that could end up transmitting all sorts of illnesses. Oh and I guess moral and ethics too.

No no no, you kill two birds with one stone by feeding the homeless to the poor. Then you eat the birds.

From a certain point of view

Edgy McEdgiton everyone, he'll be here all week.

You're just retarded. Isis is sure evil, but how does that makes U.S. good? Well, I'll tell you - it doesn't. Suprise, huh? Not mentioning that nobody fucking said that at all.

>all the villains in our games are ugly/monstrous looking or have ugly/edgy powers
>It's not as if ALL of my villains are ugly fucks, nor are all the heroes beautiful paragons
Even if it's not literally "all" it's still a big enough portion for them to notice and be bothered.
There's nothing inherently wrong but as DM you're supposed to balance the goals and desires of the players and characters and what you yourself want out of the game. There's nothing inherently wrong with a game that's all politics or all battle or always fighting elves but if that's not what the players want to do then it becomes an issue.

If you play it really well you could probably get away with just one really outstanding attractive enemy that makes an impact and sticks in their mind for awhile.
There are lots of options, like a lawful evil character with good looks and charisma who wields powerful magic to heal and enhance allies. Operating loosely within the law and hiding more evil activities, relying on allies and influence and even turning people against the characters, empowering their allies magically and healing them just when they're about to be defeated. Could make for some great stories and be just the right amount of frustration to fill your players' appetites.

this is your villain tonight

what do you do

I roll to roll

>then lecture them about stereotypes existing for a reason and deconstructivism being the tool of subversives that seek to dismantle society
So morality is directly proportional to attractiveness?

>forced trans
>tentacles

Yeah, this'll sort in under monstrous/edgy pretty easily.

>Roll to grapple
>Roll to seduce
>Roll to make love tonight

How often do you describe your normal looking villains as being normal looking? It's easy to describe the exceptions to the norm without ever pointing out what the norm is.

and THEN have her turn out to be an eldritch c'thonic deity in disguise that the demonic cult had sealed away, feeding the seal with virgin sacrifices in order to prevent the end of the world!

I swear, it's written on the face whether one is nice or bad. Being evil affects the face and looks. Beautiful and ugly, they just feel kinda wrong.

But yeah, being ugly (by standarts of one's community) is a push to evil 'cuz "muh society failed to tolerate me and I failed to tolerate society". It's one of those "injustices" that test people's souls.

Are your players in the right or wrong? Does it actually matter?
Give your players some villain that even straight guys would fuck. A recurring one.

>bare
bear

Ancient Greece was right all along.

It's not inherently wrong, but I get where this is coming from. Associating evil with ugliness is simplistic.

Give them Not-Sigvald as their next villain and see how they react, maybe?

Niggers are the least attractive. They also lead in violent crime.

>t. SJW

I disagree that this should be a rule. I see both as viable options, expecially if you give your players choices.

>it isn't like we will be winning any beauty contests soon.
And how many of us play edgelords, or would do evil shit given half the chance and no repercussions

The only thing wrong with it is it'll become predictable, they'll start judging scenarios based on the powerset and looks of the enemy and you'll create a meta-game of basically judging people by their covers.

Although if you want it to be easy to identify good and evil for comforts sake than go ahead.

I would actually butthurt since I hate harming pretty villains.
The way he was treated in those fucking end times was cringy to the extreme, I'm still mad and I'd cut the hands of the author of that bullshit.

Points of view, points of view. ISIS does have many people who feel wronged by the "Western Powers" of the world and revolt because they think they're in the right. However, we cannot forget that there are also the fanatics who indoctrinate and enrage the youth there into thinking they can accomplish anything by blowing themselves up with Fat Americans, and the religion of Islam is sadly due to it's nature a good tool for creating warriors.

In the end, mana a ISIS soldier is not evil. He grew up in a shitty world and was told it's all fault of the West, and that their god will save those who lash out in his name, against the injust.
When he sees the difference between his homeland and the West, how can he not believe? Sadly those people are beyond help since a long time ago, the best we can do is exterminate their leaders and warriors and all that reminds of them, hoping their children will not go the same way. Which might just be fool's hope.

I agree that his End Times treatment was fucking bullshit.

It's not like you have to hurt him any more than necessary. Have his pride be his undoing and have him die quickly or something.

Are you retarted?
I don't see how everyone in the city were ugly is related to the fact they were all evil cultists.
If the gorgeous angel killed them because they were evil cultists the it was right, if the angel killed them because muh they were ugly so they must be evil then this angel was retarted.
I don't see how this stereotype made sense in this situation.

You know this is a lie. Remember the video with the beheaded boy? And he was no westerner either.
There's no excuse for such deeds and they are undeniably evil. At least by human standarts, not mudslime vermin.
Now, could we, please stop this /pol/ discussion?

Beauty was well considered but that don't means they thought ugly people were evil, that's some weird nietzschean revisionism.

Reminder that Mudslimes aren't capable of building a worthy modern country. And they haven't done shieet for actual science for a long time. We should just nerve gas their countries.

Rare as it might be, this /pol/ discussion is somewhat on-topic itt, referring to the nature of evil.

As for your argument, you call them mudslime vermin. For them we are the vermin, we are the slimes and we are the ones who should die by the thousands. And not only we, but everyone who's not with them, who does not believe in their god and does not help their cause.

This is why this war cannot end in peace and we cannot leave them alone. The spite they feel towards others is personal, they blame everyone who lives better for their shitty position. And they have nothing to loose. In the end they'll just attack again and again, and so their postition will worsen due to our response. It's an unending and completely pointless cycle.

We should not end them because we're the good guys and they're not, we should end them because that's the only way to stop the bloodshed of our citizens in the long run.

This can obviously be used to create conflict in-game. An "evil" faction that is not such by their nature, but because they're doing what they think is right, and in the end, they will never stop.

Throw in the Niggers and I'm game.

Hm, I actually have almost nothing to argue with, except...
Do you really think they are doing what is right? Or is it simply wrong to assume them having a semblance of our own value compass?

Make a real pretty guy a villian next, they'll never expect it.

I never read the Harry Potter books, but someone pointed it out that all the villains in the series were described as physically unattractive in some way. I don't doubt it because hack writer, but hearing it still annoyed me a little bit.

They're hordes of 80s IQ muds who aren't capable of building modern civilization. Their creed (Islam) is for Niggers. They depend on the aid of Whitey.

It's time to pull the plug on the Mudslime World.

>Reminder that Mudslimes aren't capable of building a worthy modern country
...when their governments are repeatedly toppled by external forces. Yes. Personally I feel that a strong determinant (pretty much the only determinant) of a nation's right to exist is its ability to survive in the face of hostile external action of any kind, but at the same time, I'm not gonna write off all brown people as people because their nations can't stand up to foreign pressure.
and brown girls can be cute

I remember many cases of engineers getting convicted for helping manslaughter during WW2. Talking about the ones who were operating the gas chambers. Many of them were seriously surprised when they heard they're considered war criminals, and thought they were not doing anything wrong, just orders, as everyone else was doing. When asked if noone ever told them that you do not make sope and furniture out of people, they sincerely anwsered: no.

There was a case of a family found in Australia. They have isolated themselves from the world in the early XX century and since then lived in inbreeding for a century. 15 year old brothers and cousins were fucking as a passtime and never even thought that they might be doing something wrong.

>is it simply wrong to assume them having a semblance of our own value compass

they don't have it, as noone ever tought it to them. Their closest religious leaders tell them to fight, their parents either do the same or are long dead. They are probbably told stories about heroes who stole stole planes from "The Great Satan" and used them against it. They might just as well do what their god and patriarchs expect them to and end up in paradise, right?

*noone ever taught it to them

Generally, I can agree, however there's one thing of note.
Arabic and indian countries of old gave the world mathematics and other various knowledge and they were still Islam if recall correctly.
Meanwhile, nominally white countries such as Russia make a nuisance of themselves, while rapidly degenerating in technology and culture.
So what gives? Maybe there's also some variable in there?

>they don't have it, as noone ever tought it to them. Their closest religious leaders tell them to fight, their parents either do the same or are long dead. They are probbably told stories about heroes who stole stole planes from "The Great Satan" and used them against it. They might just as well do what their god and patriarchs expect them to and end up in paradise, right?
Right, but what about those who lived in Siria and then became conscripts of Isis?
Opressed as they are, it's highly unlikely that they weren't teached the basics of morals and culture.

The biggest one had deformities that he was known by. One of his female henchmen was known for her unkempt hair and snobby, grating attitude. However, the real kicker was that the third was a ginger.

Well here I honestly don't know, as I'm not one of them. The only reasons I see is being very loyal to their religion and seeing both it and their kin in the situation they are in.

There was after all a case in the US not long ago, where a muslim student felt scared when praying in public and was outraged at the stereotypical demonization of his culture in the media. In the end he took a gun and started shooting his american co-students. Oh the Irony.

I was telling you why I think there are many people in ISIS who are not inherently evil as they were just brought up that way, and I think my previous line of thought is correct in many cases. However, I dwill not even start pretending that this is the case with all of them, as seen on the examples both you and I provided.

I know not how many of them feel they have actual reasons, and how many of them can just be labeled as evil. Maybe it's just that these are the most easily manipulated individuals, maybe they just need a big bad to blame all their problems on, maybe they have a need for a big goal in life that will make their deaths mean something in their minds.

It's in human nature to fear, reject and fight the other. This is why we have Ku Klux Clan, Nazis, /pol/. Some people fight that, and those people try to make the modern world as different as it can be, mixing and matching for they feel this is only right. Those people simply don't want to accept the fact that a huge part of the population will always be against that.

>Blaming the West

Even countries like Saudi Arabia depend on Whitey's aid.

The brights in the Islamic Empires were largely not Arabian or actually Muslim. Persia (who were Indo-European before the Arabs came by) in particular was a major source of them.

See, the thing most people in the west forget, because our media only gives a shit when it happens to us, is that 90% of ISIS's atrocities are inflicted upon those around them, including other Muslims who happen to not be their kind of Muslim, or who have reservations about killing innocent people, or destroying cultural monuments. Sure, the attacks on Europe and the US are horrible, but they are the minority, compared to ISIS's damage to other Muslims and people in the Middle East. Why do you think the massive flood of refugees (later joined by economic migrants because you don't have to be directly blowing up a country to ruin it) started in the first place? They were Muslims and other locals, fleeing ISIS and groups like it.

By the way, when was the last serious attack on the USA by a terrorist group? 9/11 is STILL influencing America's actions, despite the fact that apparently, that's all that's really been done to provoke them. And why wouldn't it be? There are easier targets and America still lives under the influence of fear of another terrorist attack. Terrorism has successfully changed the lives of millions of Americans and ISIS has barely had to lift a finger to do it; they're WINNING this war on terror, an the US doesn't even realise it.

We have the same thing happening in America with the black population. We're being told all the problems are caused by the white man when the reality is perpetuated from within.

ISIS has been both enabled and supported by the Obongo Administration and Saudi Arabia. Now that Obongo's finally out of office we'll see if Trump can finally put a stop to American backed Islamic Chimpouts.

>Not having shakespearean villains.

I love to run these for games where my kid and his friends are playing. Its a strugle for them to decide to kill, take captive or try to redeem them.

youtube.com/watch?v=4VfVTWGwLFo

>shakespearean villains.
Iago was an irredeemable dick.

The CIA has backed groups that are of momentary benefit to the USA since the Cold War. Don't pretend that ISIS is anything new; Al Qaeda was also a group created with US backing to oppose the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan. Basically, the US hasn't changed its goddamn foreign policy in the face of clear evidence it doesn't work and now it's going "Ohhh nooo how did this happen?" and trying desperately to keep the public from realising. Hell part of the reason the War on Drugs is such a colossal failure is that the CIA is trying to 'use' it. The agency is basically a law unto itself right now at best going "I can fix this I can fix this! ...ooops." and at worse going "I can get SO fucking rich off this."

Don't blame Obama. Like most things, it's so much more complicated than that.

Black America's problems go far beyond mere self-perpetuation. It's a cycle started way back when, caused by the circumstances the black community was in following emancipation and it all just became a goddamn spiral. If someone had stepped in early enough, it could all be different, but now.. I don't think blacks or whites are to blame, but it'll take a joint effort to step back, look at the community and the world it lives in and go, "Holy FUCK this is messed up. We need to fix it and we can't do it alone or quickly."

Of course, humans being humans and certain groups with a narrative to push (coughblacklivesmattercough) being what they are, that's never going to happen short of a miracle and a new leader with the same charisma and ability to unite and lead people as Martin Luther King.

I will say, Black Americans were doing a lot better before 1963. I can only image what America might look like with a different vice-president to Kennedy.

Where does this "the villain is horribly ugly" trope come from?

In Tolkien's legendarium, all the major bad guys (except Ungoliant) were either beautiful or beautiful-turned-ugly through their own actions.

I feel like we should just add a permanent asterisk next to statements like these

Because, you know, storytelling is a subjective medium with a million approaches you could take, and none of them are actually 'wrong', just different.

Nothing wrong with understandable but unrelatable villains. Nothing wrong with relatable villains, either.

Do whatever. If your setting is one where the villains are all monstrous, that's cool. If it isn't, that's cool too.

If every setting had to follow the same rules, shit would get really fucking boring.

I know where you come from, but I disagree with your conclusions and will take action to see that your goals are not met.

escalate as quickly or as slowly as needed until the Duel of the Fates plays in the background.

forgot quotes like a fucking tard.

They're meant to think that OP is subverting his normal tendencies because they complained about it, but then it turns out that he doubles down instead.

It's a surprise ending, the fact that the evil cultists are ugly is just to make it more surprising (assuming OP would be able to pull it off. I know I'd be looking for the double cross as soon as I heard the town was known for ugly people).

You underestimate my power

Statistically speaking ugly folk tend to be less intelligent, more aggressive, and more unfriendly in general

Of course there's exceptions, like Socrates who's ugliness didn't help him at trial

See Also: Niggers (who are monkey looking) against East Asians (who are adorable).

Monkeys and straight hair and thin lips. If anything white folk look more like chimps

I think evil character, and I mean truly evil characters (ordinary evil is ordinary and the people who commit it are themselves ordinary), do themselves best as either deformed and ugly or almost inhumanely beautiful. Evil can be straight forward and obvious, but it can also be deceiving and manipulative.

Evil being corrupting also plays nicely with this as you can have a villain that starts out, or once were, beautiful (maybe he wasn't yet fully evil at that time) but has since become hideous to behold.

>t.Nigger

Niggers are among the least attractive races. See also the poor performance of Nigger women in listings by sex appeal to men.

jesus

Join the covenant and go crusading against darkwraiths.

>any asians
>good looking
oh you