Classless D&D

Pretty much one of the big mistakes people make when trying to homebrew D&D while trying to be "totally original"

>I like D&D, but I want to remove classes to open things up more to player choice.
>I also want to add way more intricate weapon rules.
>Also how about some crit charts?
>All my demi-humans will be xenophobic babyeaters, because edgy means more depth
>Can't forget fumble tables.
>Exploding dice would be neat too.

That's when you look at your horrible homebrewed abortion, bury it, read books for other games, and then hopefully learn from your mistakes.

I did a rough draft and some testing during 3.x era. Basically changing character creation and not much else. Characters got domething similar to commoner levels and some number of customization points. Assign point values to different character traits and buy a la carte.

It's hard to balance; if you cost e.g. BAB increases cheaply everyone takes max BAB, if you cost it more expensively your casters just dump it and completely dominate on a per point basis.

If anything it shows how poorly balanced d&d classes are: to recreate the fighter you end up spending points on a ton of proficiencies you don't need; to recreate the druid you need to buy so many abilities that there's no way to cost them fairly and still afford full caster progression; but the wizard is allready min-maxed as a class, minimum of everything except spells, unless you specifically add a lot of extra costs to wizard spells only you end up upgrading wizards since e.g. they can afford wizard progression and still have points for other stuff.

It also made me realize that classes are an acceptable tool for level-based systems and that getting rid of one while keeping the other is probably s bad idea.

Btw. I think there are some rules in the 3.x Unearthed Arcana book.

D20 BESM tried to put point costs to different D&D numbers, and it was as awful as it seems.

>2e Skills & Powers
[incoherent nightmare screeching]

This. Free yourself of d20s

Generic classes, where on levelup you decide between warrior/thief/caster (essentially decide which statistics you put your points into), that use feats you buy your class abilities with is in UA for 3.5. It's on the SRD even.

M&M makes lot better pointbuy D&D though.

>If anything it shows how poorly balanced d&d classes are

This. If you make classless D&D you get a different game entirely. Maybe much more balanced than the original, but then everyone will cry and whine that "it's not D&D". Like 4e

>Mfw Musiał is uses as OP's picture

Said that, why the fuck you are still trying to "fix" D&D or work with it in fucking 2017? Even the game from which the picture comes is better, hell, it's classless

>the game from which the picture comes is better
Too bad nobody knows what that is, Poland.

not quite classless, but the way Whitehack handles classes might be of interest to you

also Into The Odd is classless, but fair warning that it is indeed quite Odd in many respects(if also really good)

mediafire.com/folder/4yp0nryi0o7na/Witcher_-_A_Game_of_Imagination
You were saying?

>doesn't even have any of the supplements
I was saying that nobody knows about it, which, outside of whatever Polish fanbase the game retains and a few dozen people one the English-speaking internet, is true.

Most people don't even know that R Talsorian are supposedly working on a Fuzion-powered one, too.

Not even him, and I know what it is. Hell, we had generals for that game a year ago, while the R Talsorian game comes and goes as Veeky Forums subject.
So keep being salty faggot for yourself, not my fault you never noticed this game. And since you talks about supplements, I assume you must be Polish, so I guess it's the never ending "buaaaaa, that game was so bad!" Polish cry.
It's still better than the piece of shit Talsorian is cooking.

>I assume you must be Polish
No, but I'd guess you are. Or at least some flavour of Eastern European.

>the never ending "buaaaaa, that game was so bad!" Polish cry.
Never heard that one before, all I hear about it is one or two Poles jerking it off occasionally.

>Eastern European
As a Czech, I take a grevious offense from that one. You can't be any more central.

There is a bunch of contrarian Poles who love to bash anything Witcher-related that isn't the books itself. They are extremely vocal, since the group consists of barely 60 guys, but spread over entire net like a fucking cancer.

Back in the day when they were at their prime, they literally had a registered fanclub dedicated to "preservation of true image of witcher Geralt" as a stated goal. Vidya curbed their influence, but it's still there.

I heard that Sapkowski was deliberately putting out shitty books so his publishers would stop harassing him to write more Witcher. Why would they want that to be the 'true image of Geralt'?

Where did the Player's Options book touch you?

S&P is notoriously easy to break. Also,
>sub-attributes

Well yes, but it was an interesting thought experiment. Sadly it led to 3e.

It still baffles me that WotC somehow managed to take all of the problems of 2e and both make them worse and add more. 2e didn't even have official playtesting, for fuck's sake!

What's really weird is that WotC put out their own books called Primal Order and whatnot, and they were apparently really good.

What's wrong with fumble charts?

I think crit charts might be going a little bit too far since it takes precious time during combat, but why not fumble charts?

Also I don't like the idea of more *intricate* weapon rules per se, but for the sake of flavour I feel like some small tweaks can be made to existing weapon stats in order to represent new weapons that the players want.

The final book of the saga is basically "Rock falls, everyone dies and they have AIDS too, while it's ice age", so it's not far from truth.

The group was organised when the TV series was announced and decided that it's "badly casted". Think autist that were angry, because Bilbo in first LotR movie "wore his vest wrong". Ever since, they are dedicated to shitting on everything related with the book, but not being books. Part of it was making fun out of the tabletop, even if it's a legitimately good game, because it uses photos from the TV series for each chapter.

Sometimes I feel like the lack of playtesting focus in 2e was actually good, because the devs would focus extra hard on setting fluff instead and then just assume the rules sorta worked and put out errata if something was obviously broken.

>Rock falls, everyone dies and they have AIDS too, while it's ice age
And also Ciri's from the future and she's fucking God or something?

Really, what I don't get is why everyone's decided the Fuzion version is literally Satan. I remember one of the threads mentioned, and it seemed to be half 'why don't they just translate the existing one' and half 'Fuzion molested me as a child'.

I feel like some of the fuzion hate is more people being unaware it was used for more than just Mekton zeta and CP2030

Also people have no sense of what stats mean in fuzion but it's been true of all talsorian games, so 5-6 is human average but then it turns into an arms race until everything and everyone, including the little old lady crossing the street, has 10s everywhere.

It's simple. Fuzion is making a clusterfuck of class-based game with overengineered mechanics.
Thing that the game from early 2000 didn't have any problems with, since it was classless and flexible as fuck. Fuzion meanwhile spend last year trying to figure out how to use their pre-existing idea for magic system and cram it into their pre-existing combat mechanics, which by itself was designed for guns, not melee.

In short - ain't broken, don't fix it. And Fuzion is hell-bend on fixing something that wasn't broken in the first place. Really, just read their dev journals and you will realise pretty quick why people are so angry about that project.
Not to mention the game was supposed to be released in fucking October, last year.
It wasn't even outside concept planning by October.

I've been so out of the loop on this that I didn't even realise there were dev journals for the Fuzion game. Are they on RTG's site?

>Fuzion
>class-based
You wot m8

rtalsoriangames.wordpress.com/2016/03/03/witcher-dev-notes-1/
It's really bad. Even skipping the clusterfuck of cruch, the fact it's solely based on vidya isn't helping at all, as it cuts a lot of elements that made a good TTRPG setting and basically turns it into grimderp low fantasy missing all the fun of the setting, assuming Slavic monsters is all you need.
Also - Fuzion, which itself is aged and clunky.

The game they are making is class-based. Or was supposed to be, I dropped interest around August last year, since it was looking worse and worse. Even the half-baked translation of the first game is better than what they are trying to make, so I've stopped bothering

Here's something great from the latest dev entry:

In the process of writing the PNP RPG for the Witcher we’ve discovered there are a lot of mysterious places in the Witcher world and not all of them are meant to be that way. Looking through all the material we have to draw from, it became obvious pretty soon that most of the vast expanse that we call Nilfgaard is reasonably uncharted. Very few cities are mentioned, only 8 or 9 people are ever mentioned from each vassal state, their religion and cultures are almost unknown. We’re aware that there have been more in depth explanations, such as the old PNP RPG that was only released in Polish, (to my knowledge), but unfortunately those aren’t included in our list of sources we can draw from. So the vast majority of the land is essentially unknown.

>We’re aware that there have been more in depth explanations, such as the old PNP RPG that was only released in Polish, (to my knowledge), but unfortunately those aren’t included in our list of sources we can draw from.
>those aren’t included in our list of sources we can draw from.

What the fuck.

ty

There's Mythras (which is RuneQuest/BRP variant) hack refluffed into "dungeon fantasy".

Im generally not into D&D themes, and I prefer more "bookish" fantasy for which standard Mythras is better. But if you actually want have party of adventurers belonging to shallowed tolkien ripoff races killing shit and avoiding traps in dungeons it might be the right spot.

This is kinda surprising, I was using a fantasy fuzion derivative for a while and it worked pretty well in general (including to avoid guns)

Also they might have a rights' issue with the polish rpg.

One of the older updates said they were only allowed to use the CDPR video games and the Sapkowski books. Not the movie, not the TV series, and not the RPG.

Presumably it's CDPR wanting them to only use their vision of the setting.

>classless D&D
Why? If you don't want to play D&D, play something else, don't try to force a system into being something its not.

It's their "sorry for our game sucking so hard" card being played

The original game is no longer under copyright, so literally what the fuck

>stop playing the game I don't like! STOP IT!

Making D&D classless is hardly a gutting the system, and there's a lot to the game that people would prefer over others otherwise.

>Making D&D classless is hardly a gutting the system
Not him, but have you actually saw D&D in your entire fucking life? Removing classes from that game is literally impossible, since entire fucking system is build on those, you fucking mongoloid.

>literally what the fuck
Probably this

Wait... they are still making that game? I was sure that once the PR bullshit ended, they've dropped the project, since it was only started as a nice gesture toward CDPR for them making a Cyberpunk game next.

But CDPR is basically "Tabletop material + jokes toward book continuity". No, really, they took whatever they could from the tabletop and used it, since it's the most extensive and collective source of information about the verse.

I'd guess it's some sort of mutual back-scratching going on. No idea why CDPR would need that, though, since the Witcher games basically print money for them.

But they needed rights to make CP 2077, so go figure their side of the bargain. Why Talsorian is trying to "repay" is beyond me, since the whole project was a PR bullshit from the start

I wouldn't be surprised if CDPR could buy RTG outright at this point.

It would be a pointless waste of money on their side, so it's easier making nice gestures and gutting them from the inside. Then buy them when CP picks up (if it picks up), due to preliminary agreement they've already signed last year.

>if it picks up
I hope it does, RTG said they'd do a 2077 supplement for 2020 to go with the game. There hasn't been any news on that front for quite a while, though, has there?

The system is built on a lot of things. You can still tear out classes. Shit, people have torn out the magic system just fine for official settings.

Nope, not a word.

And the best part is how MAG, the publisher of the first witcher game, can sue RTG in any fucking moment after they publish their witcher TTRPG.
MAG signed an exclusive clause when securing copyrights for witcher game. Meaning they can cite copyright infringement up until 2071 against any other publisher.

>You can tear off classes from D&D
You can also play other game at this point

Could they get around that by not publishing in Poland?

>2071
>Witcher dev update 1782
>we're finally ready to go to print guys!

Meanwhile, back at the original topic...

You can find a whole bunch of homebrew rules that modify existing D&D systems to run "classless" with varying degrees of success.
For the current (5th) edition, there's this:
dmsguild.com/product/171305/Classless-5e-by-DiBastet?filters=0_0_0_0_45462_0

Sounds like Song of Swords dev update

>Seriously replying to a bait about homebrewing D&D into classless
Why do you think this thread is anything, but answers to OP's question?

Nope, since copyrights are international. They could get away from it till mid 80s. since burgers were one of the last countries on this planet to sign proper treaties regarding copyrights.
And currently are the nation literally hell-bend on making copyrights eternal (they've already pushed the extension to 70 years from previous 50)

Yes, they are called the Dwemer.

But elves have always been good at crafts.

And prior to Tolkien, elves were short, bearded and good at crafts.

>it's the other people who are trolls?

You are one lazy and dumb troll. Just shill your game no one plays already so we can identify which particular retarded troll you are.

Prior to tolkien, elves were still tall

oh god it's him again

Depended on the region. Plenty of different Mythology s had elves, and some were tall. But prior to Tolkien most elves in fantasy literature were short.

And technically in D&D, elves are shorter then most humans.

But people do play GURPS, so what's your problem?

I had access to UA at the time, but chose not to use it. Now I remember why I didn't use it, there's a ton of concepts that are easily done with class-D&D that is impossible with the UA system. And it seemed like a fundamentally bad idea to remove classes from character generation and still end up with a system that has fewer possible character concepts.

How the fuck did you go from "D&D classes are poorly balanced" to "without classes it's not D&D"?

True20 cut it down to three classes that you build entirely with feats. Mutants and Masterminds had a Sword and Sorcery splat called Warriors and Warlocks.

Isn't that literally Gnomes?

Why? There's so much else out there, why does it always have to be DnD?

OP might be a huge turbo faggot

Most 2e products were churned turd.
Only the setting supplements were good.

It's not D&D if it's classless, mate.

Though Pathfinder multirole classes with a ton of subclasses and internal feats are pretty close to classless. You can be a rogue, a rogue with magic, a rogue with lot of melee, a rogue that doesn't really know shit about stealing or lockpicking but can track monsters in the wilderness, a rogue that's good with a bow... And all that is still a rogue.

This is as close to classless and completely defeating the whole point to have a class you'll ever get.

Rolemaster, Also know as cart law. a 100% (2D10) skill based system. Kept classes but any class could buy any skill. Cost just changed the cost. The problem is that it keeps wanting you roll on carts all the time. The carts fill whole books (spell law, arms law) . When I played it we had to cut like 50% of the rules to make it fun playable. That is the only one that made anything of it self I can remember. Most that try that ended up looking like GRUPs or Hero System and if you were to go that route anyway, why play a clone game system?

>What's wrong with fumble charts?
Chance of a level 1 Fighter not fumbling: 95%
Chance of a level 20 Fighter not fumbling: 95%^4 for 81%, Haste brings it to 77%
Chance of a level 20 PF Monk not fumbling: 95%^7 for 70%, with ki pool/Haste 66%, with both 63%

Understand yet?