Pathfinder General pfg

>tips and trick of the GM trade

Vaguely plan the entire campaign in advance. Specifically plan individual sessions two sessions in advance. Learn how your players think and and use that knowledge to railroad them without letting them realize they're being railroaded.

>simulacrum clone armies

classic

Yeah, that's what one of my GM's is doing to. Free re-spec and re-gearing for all. That being said a lot of people just lost some damage calcs/references because we didn't actually level up since July.

>Column 1 Row 3
That's new.

IT HAS FULL PLATE AT LEVEL 1, IT'S BROKEN!

So being a martial with interesting out-of-combat applications and more value to the party than "the guy who hits things" requires specific social abilities that won't be able to fit into every campaign?

I liked it initially, but it seems to be the lovechild of one of the authors. Every book it feels like it keeps getting new options when it had enough already at publication. The fact it can access every subsystem by DSP and will probably only gain more seems to just make it stronger with every book. That class is to DSP as full casters are to Paizo.

Vigilante is unironically two steps in the right direction, it just needs more actually good choices for its Social Talents, as well as archetypes that trade the shitty Unshakeable bonus and mediocre Appearance Abilities for something that people who don't want to be batman can use.

>specific social abilities that won't be able to fit into every campaign
>its a "but dual identity doesn't fit MY campaign" episode
>pretending that Dual Identity is somehow the only part of the Vigilante's design that matters, or that it's the part that makes it good

user is a huge faggot, news at 11.

That's not what they said, so no.

>simulacrum clone armies
Explain?

Vigilante as is with legendary vigilantes can be made to fit any campaign with the various social talents. I never said it was perfect but it is a step in the right direction.

Aegis can be lots of things- but you're severely overestimating how thin it can afford to spread itself.
It can't be all those things /at the same time/.
Even with daily reconfigurations, its feats and item purchases are locked, and it will generally find itself gravitating towards one role.
It shoots itself in the foot by trying to do too much.

Legendary vigilantes and legendary villains vigilante are just about everything you'll need.

I never mentioned Dual Identity.

I wouldn't say so. But even ignoring that they do sort of require weird meta abilities that are hard to explain. Like the whole secret base thing. I can handle(and enjoy) the fact that martials break IRL physics shrugging of blows and preforming feats that make the greatest of athletes look like sickly children. But some of the social talents do rub me the wrong way. But I can see what user means.
>retending that Dual Identity is somehow the only part of the Vigilante's design that matters,
No, but it's a pretty big part of what the Vigilante is(hell it's the classes primary identity) and when one of the most popular products for "fixing" a class involves wiping that identity out, I feel like something is wrong.

Go read the spell "simulacrum"

At 13th level a wizard just fucks off for a month then comes back with 20 fully capable and obedient half-level copies of himself. This is the most conservative ruling of the spell possible.

Please don't straw-man arguments like that.
> can be made to fit any campaign with the various social talents
Examples that aren't dependent on Dual Identity.

The point of vigilante being a step in the right direction is not their dual identity. I couldn't care less about dual identity. Social Talents as a concept are a huge step in the right direction for martials. Other martial classes should have features under a similar vein. UC Rogues sort of have the proto version with skill unlocks, but that is not uniquely theirs most of the time.

Social talents and versions of social talents are good design for martials, even if vigilante's execution of them still leaves something to be desired. Anyone who thinks otherwise can suck a big bag of cocks.

Does anyone have a screencap of the Fey Obedience feat from the First World book? It doesn't seem to be on d20pfsrd yet

Okay, I definitely see where you're coming from with that.

Some social talents don't fit every game. No user is arguing that every social talent fits every game. Social talents as a concept in design is good for martials.

It's one of the few things I praise DHB's design for because it did a similar thing for Fighters/Cavaliers/Gunslingers. It gave them good skill based things and unique abilities and tricks they could do with skills, along with other unique features not reliant on skills. DHB even said he took vigilante social talents as the conceptually base for why he thought it should be that way.

>Examples that aren't dependent on Dual Identity.
Just running down the list?

Aristocrat's acumen for better sale values, Celebrity Discount if the campaign takes place in or around a particular city, Companion to the lonely for charisma based bonuses, Discreet Inquiries for research purposes, Double Time with Social Grace for crafting shenanigans, Everyman is useful in a hilarious number of situations, Feign Ignorance for when you're committing crimes, Gossip Collector if you find yourself gathering information constantly

I could go on.

The fuck's this, like...

Evil UBOS?

Obviously, but that's specific 3pp. It may be fucking AMAZING 3pp, but unfortunately for many players they have groups that won't let them have content from Legendary Games, no matter how good Jolly is at his job.

RIP the hopes and dreams of that one user who wanted to play a Warlock Vigilante.

Dual identity thing was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, on account of someone actually arguing against Vigilante being allowed in ANY campaign that wasn't specifically a "social espionage intrigue game".

The reason that the most popular fix involves wiping out the "primary class identity" is because the "primary class identity" is retarded. Vigilante as a concept for a class is legitimately retarded. SOMEHOW, despite this, paizo has managed to fall so far down their dried up well of shit designs that they popped right back out the other end and came out with an amazing chassis for a martial. Not to say there isn't room for improvement, but there's now precedent for martials to have cool shit.

The potential issue, I think, is that Aegis CAN do pretty much any of it. Not only that, but swap between it all. Multiple times per day even.

That's a badass freaking overlord

>Examples that aren't dependent on Dual Identity.
Any Guise, Case the Joint, Companion to the Lonely, Discreet Inquiry, Double Time, Entrepreneur, Every Man, Feign Innocence, Gossip Collector, Innuendo, In Vogue, Intrigue Feat, Loyal Aid, Many Guises, Mocking Bird, Obscurity, Subjective Truth, Social Grace.

My point with is that it's not dual identity that requires a specific campaign framework to work (it does, but that's not relevant) but that social skills in general require a particular framework for a campaign. Not all campaigns involve the sort of social elements that the Social Talents cater to, and THAT was my point.

I agree it's a step in the right direction, but there need to be other options for out-of-combat utility that are not social in nature.

>Not to say there isn't room for improvement, but there's now precedent for martials to have cool shit.

Basically this. Vigilante is a step in the right direction, but it's a step that was taken with your eyes closed in a dark room. It happened incidentally without consideration for the context, and the other options in that "room" still need to be present.

>Vigilante as a concept for a class is legitimately retarded. SOMEHOW, despite this, paizo has managed to fall so far down their dried up well of shit designs that they popped right back out the other end and came out with an amazing chassis for a martial
Vigilante is why I think Paizo honestly subscribes to their own version of storm-wind in that they think it's okay to gate good abilities/design behind "RP restrictions".

>Not all campaigns involve the sort of social elements that the Social Talents cater to, and THAT was my point.
Yes, if you have a pure dungeon crawl/wilderness exploration game then vigilante talents have a hard time because it assumes you'll be in and around settlements, or talking to people at some point.

You fucking know it.

Sometimes I think about wizards in Pathfinder
Just because you can... should you?

Gm tips and tricks: have plug and play encounters.

Sometimes "suddenly ninjas" works. Especially if you feel the session is getting dull.

Keep it in your pants unless everyone has written down that they're okay with it.

Don't forget to write down npc names if you name them.

Incorrect, there is a more conservative reading.

Let's look at the wording:
>It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).

Spellcasting and class features are not special abilities of the creature, but of class levels the creature has. If you copy a humanoid with class levels you're not getting their class features and the like. Instead copy a monster, that'll get you their abilities.

Simulacrum is on the short list of "never should be allowed ever" spells.

Along with Blood Money, Paragon Surge, Planar Binding, and similar.

So in summary:
>Vigilante's Chassis of Specialization+Social Talents+Vigilante talents is an amazing chassis and there are cool abilities in there that set a positive precedent
>This is bolstered by some of the archetypes, or at the very least the ideas presented in some of the archetypes (if not the execution)
>The issue comes with how few noncombat choices there are for it, and how most of the actually impactful choices require specific things or lots of handwaving from the GM
>If it is allowed EhnJolly's content can at least slap a bandaid over it, though it still doesn't solve the source of the problem
>Paizo has no idea what they're doing and probably didn't do all this good design on purpose, meaning it's unlikely the Vigilante will ever get what it needs to truly shine in a 1pp book

That right?

Aha! but you fell for the TRAP!

Now I can use simulacrum to get 10HD solars who can cast wish for me.

Blood money is thematic as fuck. I change it to "the ability damage is tied to your soul, heals at a rate of 1 per day, and can not be removed in any other way".

>>The issue comes with how few noncombat choices there are for it, and how most of the actually impactful choices require specific things or lots of handwaving from the GM
This is not really true though. What is requires is the following:
>your campaign, at some point, has you in a city/town

Really that's it. Especially with EhnJolly's stuff. Vigilante social talents are only useless when you never talk to NPCs, never have intrigue, and are a pure dungeon crawl or exploration game.

>Now I can use simulacrum to get 10HD solars who can cast wish for me.
Correct.

>Blood money is thematic as fuck. I change it to "the ability damage is tied to your soul, heals at a rate of 1 per day, and can not be removed in any other way".
I don't care if it is thematic. As written it's awful. Your writing still allows me to simply use an effect that doesn't allow my soul to be targeted/effected to bypass it.

I want to sin all over that girl!

Eh....I like blood mages. Also, as the DM, I don't let you get away from that str damage. Polymorph? magic jar? clone?

Nope. It stays.

Personally, I love themes of exploring the wilderness and dark dungeons and exotic locales. But even if you'll be in and around settlements (and for that kind of game, you should, although it doesn't need to be the same settlement) and talk with people, that doesn't mean that obstacles to be overcome need to be hosted in the settlements. Not every conversation with an NPC needs a skill check, not every attempt to get information needs a disguise and stealth check to stake out your target's house.

There's a difference between a campaign that contains a settlement and one that uses a settlement, is what I'm saying. Most campaigns should contain a settlement(s), but many can get away with not USING a settlement while still allowing the PCs to interact with non-hostile NPCs and do things.

No literally you can just have the effect unable to target your soul to do the damage to tie it to your soul.

Yes, and all vigilante requires is you interact with NPCs. They have enough social talents that interacting with NPCs is all you need to have enough relevant ones over most of your career. Give me any campaign concept and I'll give you a list of useful social talents for it.

Wouldn't the DM then just rule "alright, you're immune to the negatives, but because you can't inflict yourself you don't get the benefits either"

Then if you are forced to use your own strength score, and it heals at a rate of 1 per day, and you can't avoid the damage, I would still ban it.

Because of spells like visualization of the body/mind.

>Because of spells like visualization of the body/mind.
spending a first and second level spell and taking a point of str damage isn't that good for what those effects give you.

>+5 to all of X ability scores skill isn't worth 2 low level slots and a point of strength damage

Yes it is, what are you on about? On any day I don't expect combat I'm going to do that. Heck I have 10 strength, I'll do it twice.

Besides why do you assume I'm gonna be spending slots on blood money. I have a wand of blood money I crafted for 375gp. Each casting costs 7.5gp vs the 200gp normally. I am paying less than 1/25th of the normal price.

The easy fix for that is to say material components are used up at the end of a spell's casting, not the start. There, now Blood Money doesn't work on any spell with a casting time longer than 1 round.

Hell, IIRC that was even a Paizo dev's stated opinion on how spell casting and Blood Money work somewhere on the forums.

It's fine though, you run your games the way you like. Ban Blood Money if you'd like, but don't expect that everybody will agree that it or any other spell needs to be banned in all games forever.

>i save 175gp when I cast this self buff
No one cares. If you think that is banable then I have no idea how you let anyone get fourth level spells.

LG has archons
LE has devils

what is the iconic LN outsider subtype?

Inevitables

Inevitables

192.5gp, not 175gp.

I don't know how you think trading a spell slot and 1 str damage for +5 to that many skills is acceptable.

It seems that you have a problem with the visualization spell, and not with my modified blood money.

Visualization is fine as long as you can't discount it.

Same with any number of similar spells with expensive material components. Stoneskin is another example.

In extreme examples resurrection for anyone with more than 10 str. 10 days of downtime is easily worth not spending 5k of a diamond.

Thank you, I see what my error was, now.

When was the last time you amicably contacted evil outsiderrs?

Never. My policy on outsiders is the same as fae.

Kill em all for butting into the affairs of mortals.

>less than 200 gp
>expensive
>at least level 4
wut

How much of that incense are you gonna buy, user?

What if you could just talk to the demons?

Have you recovered from the Great Delet of 2017?

>level 5
>6k gp total
>each time I cast the spell is 3.5% of my total wealth
>as opposed to .125% if blood money is on the table
If I want to cast the spell 5 times that's a cloak of resistance.

Does that policy still apply if you're doing stuff on their plane instead of the other way around?

They can be surprisingly insightful.

Earlier this week.

I refrain from visiting other planes if I can help it. When I do, it's usually hostile territory anyway. So I guess, yeah?

Well, let's see.

I made this post... zero seconds ago. So then.

>guys you can get a bonus to a skill check , but it's balanced because it costs almost nothing!
>no its expensive if you are like level 5.
First: That isn't how WBL works, and second: no amount of evidence or argument will ever change your mind so I won't bother with this anymore.

When was the last time you were wrong about something?

Working on it, it's not going to be so bad given I only really had one character in-use. I realize now that mythweavers fucked my CMD because it didn't add my dodge bonus(es). Also that I'm going to have a fuckload of touch AC later on, damn. Will I even need to have 24 touch AC at level 4? is that overkill?

>First: That isn't how WBL works, and second: no amount of evidence or argument will ever change your mind so I won't bother with this anymore.
That's not how WBL works for consumables. It is however how it works for spells with expensive material components.

I made a bargain with a contract devil, using my soul as collateral I promised to seal an ancient (chaotic) evil in exchange for another man's soul.

Expensive Material Components ARE consumables, you bellend.

>literally saying "I have no argument"

Literally autisim

2hu?

Bane?

As defined by the game they are not. Purchasing a diamond for ressurection does not, by the game's rules, does not have your WBL level fix back to normal.

Also the whole "no matter what consumables you buy your WBL will fix back to what it should be" has always been asinine to me. I have no reason not to constantly purchase as many consumables as possible as they don't technically come out of my WBL.

There is a point where there is just no point. When this argument descended into "spell component costs aren't consumables" is when I realized I was arguing with someone who can't accept that they were ever wrong, or someone who is really stupid.

Explaining the rules to the pigeon shitting on the board is a waste of everyone's time.

You're arguing that it doesn't matter using expensive material components because your WBL will normalize. By that logic why should someone not have all expensive material component spells up constantly since their WBL will normalize? Or did you not actually mean that and you have an unstated limit?

You actually have autism don't you?

WBL is an abstraction and a guideline to how much gear an individual PC should probably have at a given level, not some sort of hard limit on how much everything they're carrying on them can be worth.

Do you have an argument or do you just want to devolve into insults rather than actually try and present a point?

When was the last time you were wrong about something?

Never

So, it is a guideline for the wealth a PC should have. Should consumables come out of this? The game defines consumables to be alchemical creations, scrolls, potions, and wands, it also says your WBL should not be lessened for them. It does not however call out expensive material components. Should expensive material components be included in the rough wealth a PC has? If it is not then what reason does a PC have not to use them constantly? If so then blood money warps this number.

It's the same reason I don't agree with how consumables don't effect WBL. There is no opportunity cost inherent to them if they don't actually effect your value.

You just claimed that spell component costs aren't consumables, then when several people pointed out how COMPELLED FUCKING WRONG you were, you then decided to explain how WBL doesn't make sense.

There is no end to the distance you will move the goalposts.

Thread before last. Again, do you have a point or just want to insult people?

As defined by the game expensive material components are not called out as consumables, like foci they are counted in your WBL under the rules. The game defines consumables relatively narrowly.

>There is no opportunity cost inherent to them if they don't actually effect your value.
But there is an opportunity cost. That 50gp you have in that potion of enlarge is wealth that you don't have in your cloak of resistance.

Yes I know, the amount is a joke. Still.

It's why I like 1/day self-refilling potions that cost 5x the amount of a normal one.

Which regular class is best suited for entry into the Stargazer Prestige Class?

I was thinking Cleric for three domains and stacking levels for channeling purposes so you don't actually lose anything except 8th level domain powers, but it seems like you don't get anything out of your hexes since so many of them impose a save with an Int-based DC, and the d6 HD hurts.

Would something Int-based be better, or is the lack of any significant loss coming in as a Cleric too good?