Fair enough but you don't get that many tanks more: With 100 pts a W german player can field 20 Leos and 12 Gepards for a total of 32 tanks plus supports With 100 pts a E german player can field 52 T-55s plus supports
It's 20 tanks more but the german player can output almost the same amount of shots (only 12 less) with more AT (and a fuckload more shots if it shoots against low armor targets thanks to the gepards) while being hit a lot less and getting the option to fire smoke
Justin Richardson
Am I the only one that thinks having that amount of vehicles on the table is ridiculous in the Flames of War scale?
Cooper Bennett
Are you talking about TY? Yeah, the levels of spam are high with this one, but it's inherent with the point system. The top tier tanks like the Leopard 2 and Abrams are so good that they devalue everything else.
In my experience the game plays well with 80 points. Sometimes you still end up with Napoleonic firing lines of BMPs and T-72 blobs, but there is still a lot of room to maneuver on a standard board. Though with the T-55 the spam is next level.
I've been thinking of playing some smaller point level games that are more infantry focused to see how the rules handle it.
Isaiah Foster
Yeah; herein is the real issue. 10 Leo 1s are 30 points, vs 19 T-55s. The leos are three-tank platoons, so can all pretty easily be GTG, whereas 10 tank sprawls almost never are. The Leos are going to be able to sit behind treelines and move up to fire on their turn, so they'll get the first shot. 20 shots on one company, most likely, so 13 hits, and we'll assume long range to be nice, so 9 tanks knocked out and the platoon's on 4+ morale, and if they're still around one, maybe two remount, so that's 9-12 tanks left. It's the usual story; NATO can just put out a ridiculous alpha.
Cameron Hughes
muh soviet hordes
t.Phill
cheers
Joseph Sullivan
Has anyone noticed Volksarmee has way more poirot speak than Leopards did, despite both being german?
Justin Stewart
>mfw kameraden
5/5 research there BF
Camden Foster
will we have to field 2x aircraft for v4 late war? painting aircraft is bitch and id rathet stop playinf than paint goddamn invasion stripes again.
Jaxson Carter
Africa didn't have invasion stripes.
Jonathan Myers
Reread his question.
I think so, but I am not sure. I may just try to find a prepainted 1/144 model for my second plane. I agree that painting planes is a pain in the ass.
Zachary Watson
You can just not paint invasion stripes at all, they started removing them short after D-Day since the planes that had them were too easily spotted, by the end of 1944 they were completely removed.
Ryder Lopez
Not sure if it's confirmed anywhere, but I've seen a rumor that flamethrowers are no longer single shot but are Brutal instead of "you die".
On one hand, vehicle flamers really should get more than one burst, and flamers generally weren't hyper-lethal historically (very good at getting the enemy to give up and surrender, though).
On the other, if you take the mass of dead teams to represent them giving up as well as dying, current flamethrower rules are a pretty good representation. That infantry flamers would have ahistorically large amounts of fuel (if they also can fire every turn) or be utterly ineffective (if they can only fire once) also is annoying.
Alexander Hernandez
Volksarmee is written by Americans who don't understand even the hardest left of Communists still think, and speak, like human beings - and not robots.
Michael Cooper
Uh, isn't the BF crew from NZ?
Brayden Reyes
New zealand, Australlia's Canada
Noah Turner
My mistake, but it does come off like American propaganda from the cold war - which it is kind of based off.
Battlefront is a New Zealand company run by New Zealanders.
Brayden Nelson
Almost the same thing. New Zealanders are just Australians with a bigger hard-on for American culture.
William Anderson
>American Try more like Western propaganda.
Dylan Perez
>New Zealanders are just Australians with a bigger hard-on for sheep. FIFY
Jonathan Sullivan
Yes, that is exactly what I said!
Dominic Walker
Isn't it run by Jabba the Hutt? That X-mass video still gives me nightmares.
Gabriel Morgan
WWPD stated what you said - they no longer leave the battlefield after firing, they fire their RoF (like normal shooting), have Brutal rule and hit with AT 2/FP 1+ (so essentially, any stand which fails the save is auto killed)
My first thought, when I heard it, was "Flame tanks are gonna get sooo good". Imagine KV-8 roaming around in groups, fucking infantry and gun teams left and right. Or Crocodille with FA 13...
Then I remembered It's V4 -.-
Christopher Edwards
I've finally updated the Scans Database!
Now available: - A new version of Panzertruppen - A new version of Leopard - A full version of Iron Maiden - VolksArmee - El Alamein 4th Ed Leak - Afrika Korps 4th Ed Leak - Desert Rats 4th Ed Leak
Pleas note, the 4th Ed Leaks are dated late December, and probably not final.
James Murphy
The design team seems to be from around the English speaking world, mix of people from all over, Americans living in NZ etc.
They do have a real problem with underwriting forces they aren't familiar with. There's a heap of books and digital sources that cover NATO units from the period, and you can just call or Facebook or ask any number of people with personal experience. For the Soviets, they probably just pick three accounts and an inaccurate book on organisation and say 'that'll do'. Unfortunately we're still just at the start of the window where accurate Soviet/Russian sources are being translated, most of the stuff that's available now has an element of bullshit to it (Suvorov). There's lots of good stuff too, but not enough of a critical mass to make some of the definite decisions they've stuck with.
The issue with speaking in banalities like 'quantity has a quality all of it's own' is that it conceals things that don't work on tabletop. Like even with good Soviet equipment, T72's, BMP-2's, 2S1's and Hinds, a 6x4 table is already packed. My game time is already spent almost entirely on team placement so I can actually get to return fire past friendly teams and burning wrecks. Qualitatively it's not any fun!
Mason Turner
So, soviet ROF4 flamers. inb4 they're nerfed.
Lucas Brooks
Yeah pretty much everything on the NVA is in German. Unlike WW2 research/documentation there's little demand for translation.
Jeremiah Thompson
Thank you
Bentley Murphy
It's about time, ya lazy bastard.
Henry White
This so much. At times though, it feels like they don't even bother finding those dodgy sources, and just slap down shit off the first google search result.
And yeah, for designing a game, they've got to realize when the "good" stuff is already a bit too spammy, that making shitty zergling-tier stuff is just going to bog the game down even further. (Though yes, I am fully aware sales are made on models, not gameisms.)
Jayden Bell
You're welcome.
I've been busy. And sick.
Only the WarPac stuff feels overly spammy to me. The NATO stuff feels about right.
I think half the problem is that when you have high end stuff like the Leopard 2 in the same game system as the T-55, you're gonna have some problems with points values and spam.
Even with the Leopard 1 at 3 points per tank, I was slightly expecting the T-55 to maybe be a 2 point tank, but it's not even that. It's like 1 1/2 points per tank.
Which makes me think it isn't really meant to be the main tank for East German forces, but more of a support unit, much like the Leopard 1s are for the West Germans.
Although even there, the Leopard 1s are a bit more capable.
Josiah Davis
Even T-72s are spammy as shit. 15 minimum is a standard for them.
Elijah Jackson
Skill 4+. And yeah, they'll probably be brought back down to ROF 2.
Zachary Peterson
15 T-72s against 7 Leopard 2s or 9 Abrams doesn't seem too spammy to me. The ratio doesn't seem that unreasonable.
But the potential of 30 T-55s against 8(ish) NATO MBTs? It seems a bit extreme.
Camden Ross
The thing is 15 T-72s is a ridiculously wide frontage because the tanks are so damn big.
Kevin Garcia
They've got the same footprint as King Tigers. So yeah. It's pretty tricky.
Liam Sullivan
I don't think it's all that extreme. i mean you can't really kill them until you reach side armour, and it doesn't like firing on the move or crossing terrain, not getting shot, not blowing up, etc. or maybe i want to feel like less of a dick for the PSC order i made
Brayden Long
Increasing table size to 8x5 feet suits well TY due to enormous size of modern tanks and increased range of AAAservices.
Ian Moore
Yeah, the game plays pretty well on a 5x8 with 100 points. Not everyone is going to have access to a table that big.
>T-55 ... support unit
With the way it is, that is what it has to be. Their main advantage is that they are priced like BMPs while being immune to autocannon fire and light rockets from the front. Their are still clever ways to use them, but I am only thinking about using 10 in a list as a spoiling force or something to raid behind enemy lines.
While that's true, BF are such flagrant Yankaboos they probably wish they were American.
Liam Campbell
Has anyone tred to combine lower hull and tracks of zvezda stugB and upper hull of BF stug G?
Daniel Anderson
...why though?
Chase Wright
How good/bad are the Soviets AT Rifles?
Brandon Martinez
Because plastic BF stug sprue has an extra hull, mg and 3 guns.
Easton Evans
>New Zealanders are just Australians with a bigger hard-on for American culture. Australia is America's whore, New Zealand can't stand their arrogance. The former is still in Anzus, the latter got kicked out.
Logan Parker
>New Zealanders are just Australians with a bigger hard-on for American culture.
Aussies love America much more than Kiwis. Well they did before Trump bullied their Prime Minister, anyway.
Jose Barnes
We had a big thing where we told the Americans to fuck off with their big nuclear boats. And they did. We do not like America's shit here.
Aaron Hall
Why? Kiwis are so full of their own bullshit you'd hardly notice.
Cheers.
Christian Harris
zvezda stug is a bit oversized for the scale, so might look weird.
Carter Butler
They're basically like everyone else's but with more shots.
They're volley-fire guns so they have some use digging out infantry too, but you'd usually want 45mm guns for that.
Generally if you can spare the points the 45mm is a better buy, but if you're planning on assaulting guns or have a terrain-heavy board the ATRs might be better.
Lincoln Barnes
>if you're planning on assaulting guns Do note that USSR ATRs are Gun Teams, while most others (at least German and British, and some Finnish) are Infantry Teams.
THus, the soviets can't assault (they can still strike in close combat if assaulted themselves, of course), but they do get volley fire. They're also useful as ablative meat for your more valuable guns (45mm, HMGs, what have you) at times.
Brayden Price
Damn, you're right.
I can't see much of a use for them if you could buy 45mms instead, then.
Benjamin Gomez
You don't buy them instead of 45mm, you buy them in ADDITION to 45mm. (Or because you don't have the points for 45mm)
Angel Gutierrez
In V3 it's worth buying them as attachments with your CiC if you can. They can bulk out your strelkovy company numbers for Quality of Quantity. They can also shoot in volley fire over the tops of your other infantry if that infantry is gone to ground. So yeah they are pretty much meatshields, but RoF 2 volley fire isn't bad against lighter stuff.
Dylan Garcia
Australia takes their self-defence seriously, NZ gave up.
Jackson Gonzalez
Maybe we'll get an OP People's Liberation Army once China takes over New Zealand and censors Battlefront.
Levi Rodriguez
there is nothing i don't hate in that post. >inb4 china is an army of one, but to show the people's collective will china fields armies as large as russia
Luke Ramirez
I like how an outsider would find that poll incomprehensible, but to us it makes sense.
Brody Wright
yep!
Dominic White
Because they don't like having a ship pull into port and then suddenly the number of military forces on the island doubles.
Also because they're stupid paranoid about nuclear stuff. Emphasis on the stupid.
Hudson Ross
New Zealand's a tiny country with a relatively meagre GDP, it's never going to have more than token military forces compared to other developed nations.
Anthony Jackson
PSC just announced 15mm plastic British Stuart I Honey light tank up for preorder...
>It's actually more expensive than Battlefront's box of five M3 Stuarts about to be released.
PSC has probably fucked up here.
Thomas Davis
Well, if the PSC one can do the early M3s and the M3A3 in one kit, it'll still be beating the BF kit on versatility.
If not, or if BF really ups the versitility, that and their Carriers are going to be in a straight cost race against BF's stuff and losing.
Austin Parker
Just saying, it's easy for them to talk shit about not needing help from the US while geographically positioned behind someone else who has no choice but to.
Juan Moore
I'm seeing £19.50 vs £30 for five.
Side note, when the fuck did BF's tanks become £30?
Luis Martinez
Probably sometime after the British Pound tanked hard.
Carson Ward
they've been £30 for years
Isaiah Morris
Wait, wut?
The RRP I saw for my FLGS was lower than that for the Stuarts.
Jeremiah Edwards
Not true. New Zealand actually did quite a lot during both world wars. Their current military really has no need to be much more than a token force. But historically when the need arises, they have raised up some very skilled formations.
One such case was WW1 where in Arras, France. Where during the siege a regiment of New Zealand miners were raised up to be sappers, and dig an elaborate system of tunnels under the city. The idea was to dig under the trenchline defenses of the Germans, and come up behind them. It worked spectacularly, and the tunnels and chambers are still there today.
I saw a presentation about this at a conference in Las Vegas for surveying and lydar mapping technology. There's a group from New Zealand going through and 3D mapping all the tunnels.
Matthew Sanders
Then who the fuck knows. In the US a box of 5 plastic medium tanks is *about $45. 5 Resin was closer to $55.
Kayden Thompson
I was going to say that wasn't it because everything else is still £20-26, but looking the $ price is still the same so I guess it is. Real glad we're making our country strong again.
Isaiah James
There's a limit to how much you can mobilise out of a small economy and population. Yeah, NZ could have a bigger army, but it's still going to be a dozen divisions at most.
Leo Cox
And that is their limitation, in it's entirety. They're a small country. But for what it's worth, the plucky bastards have formed some influential divisions throughout history.
Hudson Rivera
>Maek Brituhn Greaterest Aghen!
Anthony Kelly
Yeah, but my point is when faced with "NZ has a rubbish self defence force", that it could hardly be otherwise. If China tries to invade NZ they couldn't stop it even if they implemented universal conscription or something.
Adam Wright
With their geography the issue isn't maintaining a large force of infantry and armour which is quite costly personnel-wise. A sea-air strategy which doesn't require a lot of manpower would be eminently suited but they've let their capability wind down even as the distant powers of the region grow.
Jacob Wood
They don't have the sheer resources or massive steel industry, to support a sea-based military. Like Japan, they would have to import or gather it from elsewhere.
Liam Bailey
To be fair, "If China invaded..." is a really shitty analogy. China invading almost any country would be expected to smash the fuck out of the poor bastards on the receiving end. The only countries that could in theory be expected to last against a Chinese invasion currently, are the US and Russia. And even for the US it's completely up in the air due to the massive gulfs between techcnological advancement vs raw manpower and numbers.
Ian White
China invading the US runs into this issue called "the pacific ocean". Kinda have to cross that to apply any manpower advantage, and tech advantages can very well take the lead overmanpower when you have weeks to stop an incoming fleet.
Eli Myers
No one in Australia gives any fucks that Trump gave shit to Turnbull.
Owen Carter
Or just buy from the US/Australia. I don't see a modern regional conflict dragging on like a WW2 saga where domestic mass production is required. I think it'd play out more like a Falkland's scenario.
>Some "undefined asian power" tries to make a grab. >A game of cat and mouse occurs where planes try to sink ships and the ships try to land troops. >Hopefully the attacker takes too many casualties and calls it off.
Hudson Robinson
It's not just about being able to win a war. It's about maintaining enough of a force to serve as a deterrent to Chinese expansion into your nation's waters. If you don't want maintain a fleet or harbor foreign aid you are just hoping something bad doesn't happen.
Justin Clark
Naval invasions are hard; you don't need a superpower's military budget to sink an incoming fleet. I'm not saying it would make sense for NZ to prepare for that. There's no real threat. But if there were one, they could probably defend themselves by switching into an Israel-like siege mentality.
Taiwan thinks about it all the time, but circumstances are different. Bigger economy, 5x the population of NZ. 1/60th China's population. It's within range of Chinese land-based missiles, so a naval defense is unlikely to work without help. It's half densely-populated areas, half forested mountains, so guerilla warfare is more likely to work. It'd get ugly. Though the real problem there is a lot of older people, especially generals, still identify as Chinese (ROC instead of PRC, but they'd rather surrender than risk Taiwan becoming independent from either China).
John Miller
Was going to have recording done but due to fucking Apple products, half my files got deleted between saves. Too pissed off to start up again until next week. Sorry for the delay.
Luke Green
>Israel-like Israel still has a bigger GDP. This is what I mean; NZ is ridiculously tiny. It'd be like... I don't know, expecting Albania or something to have a military that's of any real consideration.
Christian James
Or that you're too pathetically small to be worth overtaking. There are many countries in the world who exist becausr nobody cares about where they are located.
Charles Cruz
What if Chinese directors want in on some of that sweet Lord of the Rings money.
Alexander Williams
Yeah, I think China is focusing on the cultural and/or economic victory, and just dumping their money into "defense" so nobody stops them. They have a wonder already, and are currently in the lead.
Kevin Carter
We're bigger than Britain. Much less people though.
Invading NZ would pretty much be a nightmare. There's so much terrain for Guerrillas to hide, even major roads are in some cases just Two lands winding their way up and around a mountain. Trying to get to Napier wasn't fun in the slightest. So you're either trying to put troops over the beach again, or some Chump with a LAW makes your advance bog down for six weeks. While not to the same extreme as Australia the Farming Culture in this country would provide a large core of people used to surviving in hard circumstances, and a lot of Guns. Sure you can probably hold Auckland and Wellington, but almost anywhere else and it's going to be Guerrilla central. Think a Temperate Vietnam.
Plus there's the whole Commonwealth thing. To invade NZ means you have to deal with OZ, and the Australians have their own Aircraft Carrier, M1A1s and are on the list of people buying the F-35. Not to mention Britain and Canada.
Lucas Torres
Destroying your country with a guerilla war should be the last resort in a worst case scenario, not Plan A.
Christopher Martin
As someone said before, only Russia, all of Europe United, and the USA have the power, manpower, equipment and industrial base to resist a Chinese invasion.
Nathaniel Ortiz
Japan would stand a chance. The Chinese Navy isn't quite there yet.
Matthew Morales
>Japan would stand a chance Before or after their 1945 surrender treaty gutted their military? Because it sure as fuck ain't after, seeing as their military is only now starting to reform.