Horus Heresy General - /hhg/

Okay, thanks.

If something goes above S10, doesn't it become the almighty D?

Not unless specified that it does so.

That does it, Indomitus for my Blackshields.

I wish you luck with your no-perks termis

And I'll double down on the fluffiness - I will never try and wheedle my way into Tartaros or Cataphractii buffs for them. My Blackshields are the last, broken, dying elements of the IInd (or so they claim) and the sub-optimal quality is all part of the package.

I was writing this as you typed your post. I probably deserve the punishment for fluffing them as IInd Legion.

Your Dudes, in my HH?
I'll have you hanged for that, kiddo, that'll teach you to have for or be creative

>forgeworld.co.uk/en-PL/Legion-MKIV-Recon-Squad

those are recon squads in power armor, not 4+ recon armor

I even tried to make them Not Sues and suck so bad that THAT'S why they were purged. tl;dr version is that if the White Scars pushed too far ahead and didn't consolidate and were too much about "GO FAST SEE IT ALL", The Imperial Rangers were even worse for it. Primarch wanted to just completely fuck off and try and cross the intergalactic void to Andromeda because of the vaguest, most desperate hints there might be human colonies there. Promptly censured and Legion is liquidated basically for attempted dereliction of duty.

as it stands, there are no models in recon armor. You could use Scouts for it, maybe try to convert them to look a bit more like full astartes

Has battlescribe been updated for inferno yet?

Help me settle a debate Veeky Forums

FnP vs triggering Signs and Portents from Thousand Sons

Hypothesis: FnP Does not prevent the army-wide pinning

Evidence:
Signs and Portents
>If any unit within the Thousand Sons Detachment suffers a wound as a result of a Perils of the Warp test, the Detachment's controlling layer must immediately take a Pinning test for every unit in their force with the Legiones Astares (Thousand Sons) special rule.
>suffers a wound

Perils of the Warp
>Results 1-6 "The Psyker suffers 1 wound..."
>suffers 1 wound
>suffers a wound

Feel No Pain
>"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound..."
>suffers and unsaved wound
>suffers a wound

Conclusion: Feel No Pain does not prevent Signs and Portents trigger, and in fact triggers, before FnP can even be taken.

Its supposed to trigger because of the perils test desu, thats the whole idea, them shitting themselves because warp r bad.

So yeh, it triggers whether its saved with FnP or not.

>Hypothesis: FnP Does not prevent the army-wide pinning

I would agree because FnP is not a save, technically the model is wounded but FnP ignores it instead of saving it, so a 1 wound model may a suffer a number of wounds that he ignores as long as he passes the FnP rolls.

I could be wrong but thats how I understand it.

FnP in general does nothing to counter "status effects" triggered by taking wounds, If it were an invul save you'd have room for debate.

Don't think that's the crucial line of the FNP rules. The line
>...on a 5+, the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved.
...suggests to me that if you succeed in a FNP roll, you act like the unsaved wound never happened in the first place, and thus Signs and Portents doesn't activate.

In the new FAQ a wound prevented by FnP counts as a saved wound.

I would agree, as from a mechanical standpoint S&P mentions "suffering a wound" not "an unsaved wound". S&P therefore, in my mind, would trigger regardless of wether or not the triggeree actually loses a wound or not.
From a more fluffy standpoint, FnP doesn't represent a person not being injured, but simply not giving a fuck and carrying on. So even if your commander doesn't give a fuck he just got warp backlash, you're still probably shitting yourself a little.

Doesn't that read in the rulebook as well? I'm pretty sure "FnP'd wound counts as saved" has been a thing for a long time.

Remove FnP from the equation entirely because it doesn't matter in this case. You have to suffer a wound before you can take a FnP roll, it doesn't matter if it counts as saved after a sucessful FnP roll. The wound exists first. Without it there would be no reason to take a FnP save

So a model that has one wound left, suffers a wound, but successfully makes a FNP roll, dies? They suffered the wound before they took the FNP roll, by your logic.

The FNP rule says that if a FNP roll is successful, you treat the wound as not having happened. That applies to this TSons rule too.

The wound happened, it was just saved. What user is talking about is that rules tend to very specifically say "suffer an UNSAVED wound." As in the wound happened, but was saved.

For example, as I remember, Grounding Tests were done on a hit, not a wound. So just hitting the FMC was enough to drop it from the sky, even if you didn't do any damage (which meant even shining a Tau markerlight at Bloodthirster would cause it to come crashing to the ground.) I could be wrong, but I'm sure "suffer a wound" has been a thing in the past, where even saving it has not saved you from the effects.

I think it should be "unsaved wound", since that seems to be the way these things have been going lately.

>They suffered the wound before they took the FNP roll, by your logic.
No because the wound is on the stack, to borrow from MTG. The unsaved wound triggers feel no pain, which is a chance to avoid it. However, the unsaved wound cause by perils triggers Signs and Portents first, before you resolve the feel no pain because in order to resolve some perils results the psyker must suffer a wound.

I see....

I assumed the wording was an unsaved wound. Ya, FnP is not relevant.

The idea is that wounds are checked before saves altogether.

Basically you have Hit >> Wound >> Saves.

And your checking if Wounds happened at all (in the wound section), instead of if they were saved or unsaved (In the saved section).

In programing terms,
If hits == true; goto wounds
If wounds == true; armyPinning(), goto saves
If saves == false; takeWound()

Fluffwise, this is TS seeing someone get re-Flesh-Changed and getting spooked, yes? Or at least going OH SHIT when someone gets zapped by the Warp.

But if they pass FNP, then they resisted warp zapping/flesh change, so everybody stays calm.

>hurr MTG rules say this
There's yer problem. It's a different game, with different rules. What happens in MTG has precisely fuck all to do with how 40k rules are applied.

It was a metaphor for resolution order, the stack doesnt exist, but order still does

doesn't the Phrase as a Result of Perils of the warp allow saves of any kind?

To me it sounds like all saves must be resolved first.

Your metaphor a shit. The order being This Way in a certain game doesn't mean it's the same in a different game.

This is the correct answer. You resolve each 'instance' completely before moving on, therefore FnP saves the wound.

>no-perks termis
>have 14 of them in the works

So, what's the general consensus (or, the general's consensus, hurr hurr) on the Wolves, Sons, and Custodes/Sisters?
Amazing? Underwhelming? Broken? Shit?

Sisters are really well written, they're not shit, but they're not broken either. Just very well designed.

Wolves are underwhelming. Not cause their rules are bad, but because their limitations seem lacklustre and uninspired. Russ is strong, amazing even, but not as OP as people cry he is.
TSons rules are nice and fluffy. Magnus is broken if you abuse his abilities. Pretty sure he'll be nerfed in tournament play.
Custodes are just boring.
Sisters seem interesting rules wise, but somehow feel a bit lacklustre as well, as in they needed build-in counter vs. TSons.

All 3 have broken shit, but on average they have weaknesses built in. This means some games they'll go off and it will seem impossible, other times they're just a different flavour of marines.

is there any way to fluff loyal thousand sons with custodes or is that just all kinds of power gamey bullshit?

Tsons Praetor running 'Outcast Sons' plus allied detachment of custodes. Even with the fluffy if slightly bad Outcast Sons RoW some nifty combos are possible here.

Pretty difficult. There weren't many of them, so when Magnus called his legion back to Prospero (I will never not find that name amusing) it would have been hard to miss any. I don't even think they spread out all that much.
Also, they started going all mutate-y soon after Prospero burned, so you'd need to fluff how they survive without the Rubric.

But hell, you can make anything work if you try hard enough. Mostly.

>There weren't many of them
They retconned this mate. There 80,000/90,000 of them now. Shit change in my opinion but thats the fluff.

>Wolves are underwhelming.

Good. Last thing we need is bunch of autists screeching "Yiff snowflakes are OP, fuck you furry fucks!"

In A Thousand Sons they indicate there were about 10,000 when the Heresy began. Did this retcon happen in Inferno?

here's my sicaran battle tank. For Mortarion!

>Also, they started going all mutate-y soon after Prospero burned
Actually if you go with the old fluff Tzeentch protected them until they repeat to the Eye after Terra. The Rubric happens after the scouring, at least it used to. Who know these days with Magnus all sharded and other random shit.

> Did this retcon happen in Inferno?
Yeah, I read all the leaked pages that were dumped. There 63,000ish TSons on Prospero now during the burning. Kind of ruins it for me but I aint a TSon player so cant complain too hard.

ATS was almost completely retconned by Inferno.

Signs doesnt require an unsaved wound, just that the psyker suffered a wound due to perils. YOu can suffer a wound and sill save it. Otherwise the first sentence in FnP isn't needed

Grey Slayers as troops is pretty solid. Getting to charge after firing bolters (even at -1" to charge distance) is pretty badass. Much better than the Blackshield Marauders' charge tactic.

if that is true, its a shame given that ATS set the setting really nice.

T'Kar when?

Those that went with Magnus to the planet of the sorcerors suffered the Flesh Change again. Nothing is said from those that were in the fleets, and there's a history about one ship coming back to see what happened. They weren't suffering from the Flesh Change.

Is Contemptor Mortis with autocannons a decent threat? I'm not getting the Deredeo and I want something that can at least threaten flyers.

Mortis with dual Keres or dual Lascannon.

Not to forget that with shields you can make not-Breachers that work in CC quite well. You lose bolters, defensive grenades and hardened armour, but gain attacks, power fists, frost blades on the sergeant, ability to run and charge, etc.

Apart from my recon and assault squad, I just loaded on slayers, and I'm perfectly happy with it.

You can make him as a Rapotra Praetor easily, just no individual special rules.
There's rules for Amon however, that are pretty neat.

But if the FnP is succesfull, the psyker has no longer suffered a wound due to FnP. And I think it is safe to assume you roll FnP immidiatly after the model takes an unsaved wound.

Generally with rules questions like this, assume that everything should be legally resolved at the end of a phase/turn. If you rolled for pinning tests, but the psyker did not suffer a wound due to perils because it was saved with FnP, the pinning tests should not have been taken.

Arvida was on that ship and he ended up with the change m8.
Not conclusive it happens to them all obv, but the only non-Prospero case we have right now.

I'm starting to like this idea that it was the psychic might of Magnus which brought about the flesh changing, and that his exit into the Warp took the curse with him. Those who remained either became Blackshield pirates or eventually realized that they were no longer afflicted, and became Shattered Legion loyalists.

My own magnus.

Also saving deny the witch dice as appropriate to stop either invis or nova.

What do combat shields do again? They were always such crap back in the day that I just never paid 'em much attention.

Mortis with dual lascannon always seemed like a dumb idea to me, since the point of a contemptor is to get shot at. I would rather go heavy support squad instead.

People seem to forget that the TS found on Prospero by the WS in Scars, who went there to find answers as to what happend to his legion, still very much suffered a great deal from the flesh change.

>But if the FnP is succesfull, the psyker has no longer suffered an unsaved wound due to FnP.

FTFY

It's a nice idea, but kind of the whole set up for the Sons always being fucked over is that Tzeentch cursed them with change from inception, as part of his 200 Year Plan.

I don't think you need to fluff too hard to present Loyalist TSons, you just say they're from a non-Prospero contingent and that's that, all the battles we fight can happen when we say, you just say your guys don't have the flesh change (yet).

Combat and Boarding shields both give 6++ vs. ranged and 5++ in close combat. Boarding shield gives Defensive Grenades and denies +1 Attack from two weapons.

Well I'm part of the Blood Ravens fan club so I'd like some fucking clarity on the hypothesis that they are TS loyalists some time before I die.

You'll likely never get more than what we have now, which is still hugely likely.
Just come up with your own shit.

Like, think of the Blood Drinkers. Some dude in their past made a deal with Kairos Fateweaver so that the chapter wouldn't fall to the Red Thirst, that secret is only known to the head of their Chaplaincy. To all other intents and purposes they are loyal space marines.

Just come up with a similar thing if you want to fluff out your guys continuing as loyalists without mutation in their fluff.

There now officially 20,000 TSon minimum off of Prospero. There's your loyalists.

Right, FnP would prevent it if it were an unsaved wound that was required. Signs tells us to immediately resolve th epinning test right when the psyker suffers a wound, and thus we resolve the pinning before we can resolve the FnP

Plz stop user. Youre forcing this way too hard.

If that was how the rules worked, you would also have to remove the model that took a wound before you got to roll for FnP.

First do all the saves, then after that any effects that may or may not trigger.

>FnP would prevent it if it were an unsaved wound that was required.

Yes.

>Signs tells us to immediately resolve the pinning test right when the psyker suffers a wound, and thus we resolve the pinning before we can resolve the FnP.

Rulebook says "must take a Leadership test once the firing unit has finished its shooting attacks for that phase. This is called a Pinning test."

If you're still rolling dice, the shooting attacks are not done for that phase.

Somebody mentioned some stuff in Inferno about Ahriman leading an army of ghosts in the Battle for Terra.

That's old numbers when the legions were still up to 20,000 strong. Actually the Death Guard was the smallest legion at the time as they only had 7,000 marines.

Wolves are not an issue, the players are. I get the book's a clusterfuck, but the inability of yiff players in interpreting the rules is astounding.

Only 1,292 of those defending Prospero escaped to Sortiarius, it's mentioned in "the Talon of Horus" and the book abides by the new canon legion numbers.

And Hand Flamers for 5pts are a steal.

Pariah Flamers on blackshields. Worth it?

Thinking of taking the -1 BS chymeriae trait so I'll have flamers anyways.

Tac Support with Pariah Flamers in a transport works like a charm, yes.

Thinking about fielding TS contemptor talon with force glaive and PF, with an option to substitute graviton guns. Too expensive? Too bullshit? Too pointless compared to Leviathan in a drop pod?

>, it's mentioned in "the Talon of Horus"
Retconned user.

>Somebody mentioned some stuff in Inferno about Ahriman leading an army of ghosts in the Battle for Terra.
This is an Imperial theory, not a fact. Could be interesting if it was followed up on. Do you have that image by the way I forgot to save it.

Hey guys. Master of the Legion and Praevian aside, is there any way to bring no-slot units in an AoD FOC?

Yeah, I might use them as my Loyalist TS contigent. Of course, if Traitor rules show up as fun, I'll play them as well

>the inability of yiff players in interpreting the rules is astounding

Such as?

Cute

>There now officially 20,000 TSon minimum off of Prospero. There's your loyalists.
And they're confirmed Corvidae.
Hint hint nudge nudge.

Which marine model has access to a Machinator Array? Red book has it listed in the wargear chapter, but no model has it as an option...

That's mechanicum stuff.

Did scananons post any fluff tidbits from Inferno.

I want that superior FW fluff

There is only one Scananon, and he is dead

>If that was how the rules worked, you would also have to remove the model that took a wound before you got to roll for FnP.
No, because you have to resolve the FnP trigger.

This game uses triggers, but doesn't define what a trigger is. This is what allows us to take saves and resist things, otherwise the roll order would have to be hit-save-wound instead for example.

>This is called a Pinning test
If any unit within the Thousand Sons Detachment suffers a wound as a result of a Perils of the Warp test, the Detachment's controlling player must immediately take a Pinning test for every unit in their force with the Legiones Astares (Thousand Sons) special rule.
>must immediately take a Pinning test
>immediately

The order of battle for the Censure Host, the Wolves and the Sons are kicking about somewhere thanks to phoneposters.
The 3 preview pages Community put up are readable, they describe how the Censure Host was put together, what Prospero was like and confirm that Magnus unlocked the doors and cut the phones lines.

My autism is holding me back from kitting out my sergeants.

I'm doing 20 man squads with attached apothecary and extra CCWs, and I figure I'll either go powerfist or power sword/melta bombs on the sergeants, along with artificer armor. Is this enough? I plan to also have combi-flamers on my apothecaries, so a figure a squad like that will be able to handle enough threats with a decent chance to succeed.

"No women, no kids."

How would a custodes army do?

Unless you're planning on outflanking them with Amon, just take cortus contemptors. You're paying 675 points (720 with the gravs) for a unit that will probably only be useful within 12", which is just begging to be lascannoned in the face as it runs up the field, while a cortus talon with fist/chainfist costs 240pts less (195pts less with gravs), which could buy you a ML3 praetor with some toys or a veteran squad with ML1 and shred shells in a rhino, and the cortus are faster. If you want to take osirions, it's probably better to take kheres, giving you more options at range, and run them with either telekinesis or telepathy (telekinesis for mindbullets, with the chance of being a force dome generator or a jump pack dreadnought with levitation, telepathy for scream with the off chance of being invisible).