/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

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>Question
If you had created the World of Darkness, how would it be different?

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FIRST FOR MAGE SUPREMACY

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Spent so bloody long writing this that the old thread archived.

I think the issue here is you're looking at it as, as you say, an attempt to dictate player behaviour, but that's not really what Harmony *does*. It means there's potentially a spiritual and personal consequence for breaching the Oath, but that's not 'do this or suck' (or, indeed, 'this is the only way you can approach it').

In terms of mechanics, the Oath of the Moon doesn't force PCs to approach Pure antagonists non-violently. It means there are consequences to constantly killing Pure, in that you will tend towards a Harmony extreme, but it's not something that can't be countered, you'd need to pile up a fair few Harmony breaks that you failed the roll on for it to reach significant levels, and a werewolf can then take actions to shunt their Harmony back towards balance again.

A game where you were regularly killing so many Pure as to actually find that it was putting you in the red zone on the Harmony chart on an ongoing basis would involve so much carnage that frankly I don't think the resulting imbalance is out of proportion.

A campaign where a pack approaches the Pure with violence, and only violence, at every encounter is not doing Forsaken wrong and is a perfectly acceptable way to play the game. Engaging in so much killing is just likely to take a toll on your characters, much as it does for butchering humans.

I would also suggest that, while the Pure are indeed intended to be an antagonist, there are more facets that can be explored with them than you are allowing for. Yes, many Pure are monstrous. Yes, the Pure are following a doctrine that is likely to pit them against you. That doesn't mean every Pure is a ravening maniac with no higher goal than to murder you - it also doesn't mean that your own circumstances always allow for a Maximum Wolfnazi Purge response. A Forsaken pack might not want to risk the potential losses of fighting a Pure pack, especially one that is mostly getting on with minding its own business or one that has influence and connections which make tackling it troublesome. They might encounter Pure who are hapless sorts inducted into a cult they don't really believe in, or who are more interested in power than the ethos and faith, or who have goals that align with the pack in terms of other enemies that need to be destroyed or goals that need to be accomplished. Etcetera, etcetera; I could come up with all manner of justifications for a Pure pack that neither wants to regularly kill Forsaken, nor demands a violent response to their actions, but it's very late here and I'm heading to bed shortly. However, if you want, it's something I can go over in a more detailed write-up at some stage in the future.

(Er, should probably mark this as 2/4, forgot to tag the first one as 1/4)

And even for those, Forsaken doesn't say 'you can't kill them', just 'there are consequences to your Harmony for killing them'.

This also touches on a few conversations I've had with people in the past (including DaveB) about 'degeneration' on the various integrity-type tracks. A summary would be thus: things that cause your integrity-equivalent to degenerate/go to problematic extremes are not a mechanical attempt to dictate to you not to do those things. They're a part of the game to be explored, with mechanics added to actually make it relevant and interesting. You are not 'playing wrong' if you end up with a werewolf at a Harmony extreme; right now, the fact that one of my players' characters is high-enough Harmony that she's going to go berserk soon due to expanded Death Rage triggers is something we're all looking forward to, said player included, because it's gonna be fun and some interesting story to play around with.

Another point that comes to mind that may be worth considering re the Oath of the Moon and not killing Forsaken - I don't think it's a great stretch to see why a given culture or society may want to tamp down impulses to kill their own kind. Forsaken society *generally* frowns on people who go killing Pure, but what that translates to depends on context and individuals, much as it would for someone who, and let's take an example that's admittedly not exactly a direct translation, went around killing neo-Nazis in real life.

(3/4)

So its more like trying to navigate, say, gang violence and the politics involved in that?

Now, it's sufficiently later after I started writing this, and sufficiently early in the morning, that I'm basically rambling at this stage and somewhat losing track of what I have and haven't covered, but, tl;dr: Harmony and the Oath don't exist to enforce player behaviour, they exist to give consequences to actions and interesting outcomes to such. Harmony and the Oath absolutely do not prevent player characters from killing Pure. It's not too hard to run Pure with more depth than just ravening maniacs and to add causes to interact with them other than fear of shifting one's Harmony. My own players do stuff other than killing Pure not because they're scared OC about their Harmony going out of whack, but because that's how the game is unfolding and because that's what they want to do.

I'm not saying you have to like Forsaken, or to like how Forsaken handles this. I just think it's worth you considering that you may have the wrong end of the stick on the matter, and to take a look at it from a different angle. You might do that and decide you're still right and I'm still wrong - and that's fine. If you do, then you've got plenty of options - and yes, of course, 'go play another game' is one of them, but so are things like just excising the bit you dislike and letting Forsaken kill Pure without any Harmony effects. The game won't break if you do that, and if it means there's a form of Forsaken you do enjoy playing as a result, then go for it. If Forsaken in general isn't your cup of tea, then obviously it *is* time to go play another game, and I genuinely wish you well with whatever game you prefer. Go forth, user, and do awesome things.

(4/4)

I'm going to say yes in the hope that it makes me sound insightful and covers up the fact that my brain is shutting down with drowsiness.

I really need to hit the hay, but I'll happily chat further over various bits and pieces tomorrow.

...

Any chance someone could share the following:

Tales of the Dark Eras
Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes
Beast Ready Made Characters

Thanks.

Mage, Mage it's all I care about

>Conquering Heroes

No one is going to pay to give you Dick Eggs, Gamergate Unwashed Asshole and I SUNK DA TITANIC! Go buy it yourself.

They sound like great adversaries for a mage heroically obliterate.

>If you had created the World of Darkness, how would it be different?
I never would have used the word Gothic because it's not accurate at all.
It would also be far less racist and sexist and bigoted.

I get racist and bigoted, but I thought WoD was okay on the sexism, they sure seem to love the womyn

There's a lot of stereotypes and unfortunate conseequences, and some blatant sexism in some games. It's better than most rpgsbut it still exists.

Sounds about right for the time period it was made in, wonder how much of the sexism is in the Black Furies

You can put down your MRA banners the sexism goes both ways.

Nah man I was just going for the easy target, AKA the tribe based around hating men (Early on at least, lil better now but still). Considering the Get used to have a forced form of intolerance at char-gen, I'm sure they had a fair bit of sexims.... I'm going to say Fiana too, something about them screams some sexism at some point.

>the sexism goes both ways.
The Black Furies are actually a good example of that. Outright misandry thrown on top of "stronk womyn" stereotypes that no sane woman actually believes in.

It would have hired better people to make the mechanics. Specially around combat.

I would never had re-hire Phil brucatto or hired David Hill Jr and put a proper Children of Gaia Revised sourcebook.

Blood Treachery and the avatar Storm would have NEVER happened. Instead i would use the space dedicate to condescending/"inclusive" sidebars to recommend to talk like adult for the feels and scope of games.

The technocracy would have been a grey guy intentionally.

Samuel Heigh would have been a Glass Walker Kinfolk to tie to the plot line in their tribebook of kinfolk getting uppity.

The guy who though Atlantis and paths for Mage the awakening would have been fire or worse, transferred to black dog. I would have discarded the 5X5 model of NWoD thinking each line by what they need nor how to fit the model. I would drop morality meters entirely except humanity.

I would have keep the resonance from Ascension to awakening and paradigm.

>bump

Not write in Sam Haight.

I second this notion.

Write Sam Haight into all game lines, including CofD.

I would, ADORE seeing him be integrated somehow into every line of WoD. ESPICALLY mummy, cause no one fucking thinks about that god damn game.

Mummy? What's that?

Are there any 3rd party (besides OPP) WoD/Storyteller products?

Nope, but there might be in the future, depending on how well Scion's OGL does and whether or not White Wolf is down for it.

>It would also be far less racist and sexist and bigoted.
Calm down there leftie. We know you love injecting your political opinions into everything, but you really shouldn't.

There is a knowledge squid that mite b cool for a mage game in that book. Essentially it's an incarnate beast that forgot it was ever human, it swims the waters of the world(s) makes frequent trips to arcadia, the astral, the underworld and the shadow. It knows shit loads about the supernatural and will trade portions of its knowledge in exchange for knowledge it doesn't know. It has a particular interest in vampire lore since most of its knowledge was gained through its otherworldly travels and vampires are isolated from the realms invisible.

>incarnate beast

These are beasts that actually become their monsters physically, right? I haven't read the book yet.

It's the win condition of beasts, yeah. They merge with their Horror, which gives them a shitload of extra powers and the ability to actually be a monster in the real world.

Not the user you were responding to, but my problem with Oath and its current implemetation is the part where a Forsaken woof with Harmony slanted towards Spirit can go out, murder a Pure(or Ghost Wolf, or even another Forsaken) with a silver implement of their preference, fail their Breaking Point roll, and end spiritually *healthier* at the end of it all. There's a real disconnect for me there.

Okay so, are Archmages from M:Awakening or are they another name for Oracles from M:Ascension?

Its not spiritually healthier, just more balanced. Because they've done other things to tilt them in the other direction before.

Option C:
Both

>Going out and fucking a hooker to become more spiritually balanced after killing your brother
Neat

With regards to Forsaken 2e, what's keeping the Pure from completely purging the Forsaken now that the threat of going Zi'ir from copious uratha murder is no longer a thing?

The difficulty of actually doing so dissuading many who would otherwise try?

Yeah the incarnate thing is kinda dumb normally but in this single instance it actually doesn't matter. Smarty squid is so easy to slot into a Mage game I'm honestly wondering if the person who wrote didn't write it more for mage than for Beast, and if you are one of those people who like to pretend beast doesn't exist then you can just straight up ignore the squid's origin story since it 100% doesn't matter.

WtF 2nd Ed. is actually kinda goofy in how weird balancing Harmony can end being. Like being weighted towards flesh and then killing a human to break yourself back into balance. But... you succeed at your degeneration roll. So you go and kill another human... and pass the roll again. So you try again. You pass. And again. Pass. And again. And again, again, again, again, until your character is standing there covered in the blood and viscera of a 137 people, still at Harmony 7, going "What the fuck inner me?!?"

What's difficult about when they outnumber the Forsaken 4 to 1?

I don't know.
Cooperating maybe?

Do they really outnumber them 4:1?

Depending on how you roll, your character might have to fuck a lot of hookers before they actually fail their Degeneration roll.

... Can he write it off as therapy?

They explicitly did in 1e. Is that no longer the case in 2e?

If I remember correctly part of the problem was that they burned out their auspices and associated powers. This makes it so the Pure have the numbers but the Forsaken have the mystical mojo.

The Pure have more powerful Totems on average though. And in 1e they got unique, exclusive Tribal Gifts that were just as powerful as Auspice Gifts.

So Werewolves are no longer monogamously inclinednlike 1e? No more wolvea mate for life instinct most apex predators have?

Does Mage the Awakening allow different perception of supernatural phenomena based on your "praxis" or "paradigm" even just cosmeticaly? Maybe a portal will look opening of glade to one mage and a giant monstrous moth to another. Both are functionally the same just the Mages see it differently. Both will register the same Truths symolicaly.

>Monsterous mouth*

Some symbols might display themselves a bit differently (Mastigos might see someone bound to his desk by chains representing his job, while an Acanthus might see it as a ribbon), but the meaning is always mostly clear.

Your Mage Sight isn't clouded when it should be clear, so a portal will look just like that in Space Sight, a portal. No mouths, no glades, just a portal, a warping of space connecting two locations by fraying the distance between them.

Physically they might seem different, but that's the physical, mortal senses which can be tricked.

If you use an Arcanum or something like Fate, then sure you're going to see abstract symbolism that you have to figure out yourself.

But the entire point of Mage Sight is that you're looking past the chaff to get straight at the Truth.

You are talking about active/focused mage sight right? Because Peripheral is Always on.

Aren't the Pure supposed to be more cooperative than the Forsaken?

I mean, they try. IIRC, it' goes in a cycle
>One side gets stronger than the other
>Stronger side devolves into petty infighting/complacency as a result of their lofty position
>Other side manages to make the comeback and reverse the situation
Wash, rinse, repeat since Father Wolf's death.

Yes, I am.
Peripheral Mage Sight is noticably, quite personalised.

>reading through the tribebook for Bone Gwaners
>one of their gifts forces everyone to start dancing when they play the banjo
Best tribe

I now have the perfect excuse to play this song during a game.

youtube.com/watch?v=76Pq8sTFmvw

The game itself is based on stereotypes. I'm irish and I balked at the fianna when I first started reading but every single tribe is an exaggerated stereotype of something.

I love it.

Mage players, what was your shadow name? I played an Acanthus con man with a music fetish and a lust for fame and glory who went by the name Mr Jones. Apparently I was the only counting crows fan in the group because nobody got it.

I'm GMing, I've got fucking tons.

Though the character I really want to get to play is Angela Dawn. Obrimos with a ladyboner for Fate, and finding what she called "True Fate", the kind of shit even Awakened Magic can't fuck with.

The character I'm sitting on right now is a Moros named Roland. He picked that name as a reference to the book series mainly, because Roland was all about reaching the Dark Tower which was the mystical center of all creation and supposedly had god living at the top of it. He was so obsessed with this goal that he sacrificed everything he had and everyone he loved (literally, they all died) to reach it, and when he finally got there it was all for nothing. So the name is really meant to serve as a warning against delving too deep into your obsessions.

But when other characters ask him about the name choice he just tells them it's a reference to the poem. "Moros, 'Childe Roland to the *Dark Tower* Came', get it?"

Most of my Shadow names end up being literary references.

>With regards to Forsaken 2e, what's keeping the Pure from completely purging the Forsaken now that the threat of going Zi'ir from copious uratha murder is no longer a thing?

First is the auspice. Auspice in 2nd are incredible powerful. In 1st edition the pure had their own set of gift that while not exclusive to them their book said they were difficult to get. Thats no longer the case, the pure have the same gifts as the forsaken minus the 10 (2 for each auspice) incredible powerful auspice of the forsaken.

A friend once describes the arhoun (WtA full moon) as living the FILO philosophy (first in, last out) now in 2nd? They are the first in and the leave whenever they fucking want because everything is dead.

I running a game and a cub full moon with only 1 Lunar gift is hitting 12 damage per turn in garou. 8s again can be and are nasty.

The only things that the Pure have are, stronger totems (1 point more for free) and "numbers" which depends heavily on the setting. The pure haven't receive any love this edition unfortunately and it feels they are threat just by DM Fiat.

To be fair the Fianna tribebook is awful, its not "children of gaia awful" but it is pretty bad.

None really, in our table we think that having shadownames is like having your "Japanese" name in weeaboo communities and that no adult would use one and expect them to be treated seriously. So we houserule them out of the game.

Of course not user, cuckolding is the future!

even more? What do you get then? World of Social Justice? Sounds like a bland game

Eh, some of their older stuff still has bite (seeing twinks (as in faggots) used in a sidebar made me do a double take)

you can even have sex and get pregnant as a man as a werewolf

Farmer Thrysus called himself "The green man" or Green for short. Accidentally ended up being worshipped as a deity by other farmers in the area. He was content on leaving well enough alone until they started sacrificing children in his name so he had to step in and take a more active roll in the cult.

Downside deranged redneck cultists, plus side free mystery cult influence.

How would you stat up the Slender Man? I think he would probably be a one-of-a-kind ephemeral being of Rank 4 or 5. He could also be a Horror (the kind that uses Potency and Dread Powers), a True Fae or Incarnate Beast.

I've always imagined him as a true fae

Perhaps a Goetia that jumps between bodies of 4channers to possess?

Pence is an Ochemata of the Father

The Paternoster hasn't heard hide nor hair from the Father in decades. Every other iron seal communicates regularly with it's followers with the possible exception of the Gate.

There's a delicious irony to this.

Until now, when the revealed servants of the Father again take a hand in guiding history

>implying it's not the Hegemonic Ministry

Look at all this nationalist, antiglobalist rhetoric. They're fighting back against those Mammon faggots.

Paternoster is the ministry of false religion, makes sense that they'd practice what they'd preach

My Moros is a Pacific Islander

Who's a cute?

>ministry of false religion
Is there any other kind?

I had a Blank Badge infiltrating the silver ladder who went by "Janus" which was just a fancing up of his real shadow name "5k31370n" or
Skeleton" (as in skeleton key). He was an expert at breaking and entering as well as hacking.

The Janus name made a solid cover with the same basic meaning. Roman god "of beginnings, gates, transitions, time, doorways, passages, and endings. "

As a Mage, if a deity/spirit/supernatural entity asked you to immaculately conceive a child would you do it? Let's say said child will have a great destiny and power.

>deity/spirit/supernatural entity
Depends on the deity/spirit/supernatural entity.

Is it possible yo run a laid back Mage game where you go around solving supernatural mysteries like in Mushishi? There will still be threats but nothing too grand unless you mess with some high ranks being.

Sure, we our mage game was 90% that until the end when we did a time skip.

What you need is talk to the player so they agree to that playstyle and limit the level of arcana they can purchase.

For example before the first time skip we couldnt raise a arcanum past 2, then after we coulndnt raise an arcanum past 3 and so on so on.

Okay, I've never played Mage, but all this mageposting made me curious.

How the fuck do you play let alone DM a Mage campaign? If you can literally solve anything by turning people into lawnchairs it has to be boring as fuck.

It's a massive exaggeration, and mage, like all gamelines, is balanced against itself. I don't know why you would actually play a crossover campaign.

I'm running an Ascension game right now. The PCs are all Arete 3, and the basic concept so far seems to be "The PCs are ridiculous reality-warping demigods, only fuck crowds and fuck guns"

Literally one PC has defenses against normal firearms, everyone else is just running around hoping they don't get shot up.

Magefags.

Ah good. Like I said, I've never touched it.

What's "better" ascension or the chronicles one? I would prefer to play ascension since I like oWoD better in the other lines I've tried but I've heard that M20 is a shitfest.

I swear you non-magefags are just fucking jealous of us.

It's subjective. I prefer Chronicles Mage especially 2e. I was never big on any of the meta-plots, the science vs magick neo-paganism schtick, and didn't like the technocracy as antagonists.

I'm also a DaveB fanboy. Notice me Senpai.

Both Ascension and Awakening are amazing games, the former just can't be played without house-ruling it first. You can at least play Awakening entirely RAW.

Have faith, user

I can confirm this, when I ran Ascension I basically threw everything out except the Storyteller system and the basic Sphere rules and house-ruled everything.

The setting is amazing but the system is confusing at best, and overcomplicated at worst. Was awesome when it finally got rolling though.

What's the irony? God's real and he's a dick? Or god's real and he doesn't care about you?

>the system is confusing at best, and overcomplicated at worst.

It's also hard as balls to even use magick until you can start holding/handing your spells. Arete + Sphere is a very common house-rule because of this. It's exactly the same in Dark Ages, Pillar + Foundation.