So I've just realized, after several years of playing Pathfinder...

If you have to ignore most of the system's rules to make a major part of its gameplay interesting, then it's not a very good system.

Get a load of this guy, he think his character's actions are hard limited to what's on his character sheet.

Tbh, i'm in 100% agreeance that DnD, Pathfinder, etc are all shit systems, they have so many flaws that make them almost unbearable to play, I only play dnd5e because sometimes my friends are retards and cant be bothered learning a more complex system.
However, it's your own responsibility to have fun, so if you cant have fun with just
*roll to hit*
*roll to hit*
*roll to hit*
Then you need to do something else, such as attacking to knock down, maneuvering an enemy into a wall, moving to an ally to shield them, etc.

>>I am less able to interact with the ruleset than the other characters
>lol just refluff it

I dont understand you, are you mad at me because I dont feel autistically compelled to limit my characters to taking actions that have official rules written in a book?
In systems like DnD, PF, etc, yeah, a fighter has access to lower number of 'actions' than a wizard. You could argue this is a system fault and i'd agree with you.
However, if you are unable to have fun because of this, your a shit player.

Fuck yourself. 4e was unrefined but a truly great game for tactical combat once they figured out what they were doing and unfucked the math.

>arguing with system trolls

It's your own fault, whatever results.

For high quality martial combat, two systems get mentioned a lot- Song of Swords for more realistic, grounded stuff, and Legends of the Wulin for more over the top Wuxia/anime high action combat.

I'm a lot more familiar with the latter, and despite some issues like an awfully edited core book, LotW is fucking fantastic and has the best combat of any RPG I've ever played.

It's kind of hard to avoid when Pathfinder/3.5 and martials comes up in a topic.

It's easy. You can easily avoid those trolls by not pretending what they say is as important as they obviously think it is. It's actually really easy when you take a step back and stop listening to them and take a broader look.

If you're end up stuck playing Pathfinder like so many poor sods out there, you can at least make martial combat more interesting with the Path of War. The Tome of Battle/Path of War is one of the big redeeming features of 3.PF.

>Just plug your ears and screech and the problems will go away!

Yeah, okay.

Troll, you try so hard.
The problems you complain about are not the entirety of the system. No one's ignoring the flaws, they're ignoring YOU.

Which I will proceed to do.
Screech all you want now.

>I'm not ignoring the flaws, I'm just ignoring anyone who brings them up!
>Because they're TROOOOOOLLLLLS

Yeah, okay.

>Yeah, okay.
>Yeah, okay.
yeah, okay.

I'm agreeing with you user. Isn't that what you want? Everyone to agree with you?

He's already got another crybaby thread up on the boards, one where he insists he's totes not going to get involved in edition wars ever again, and is calling everyone else 'trolls'. So now here we have him being a passive-aggressive shitposter with an unwarranted sense of smugness.

When you play a system where everyone can do shit outside of combat except for you, and are at least as effective in combat as you, you tend to get a bit bitter at the system.

>Get a load of this guy, he think his character's actions are hard limited to what's on his character sheet.
The stuff on my character sheet is shit that I know, with 100% certainty, is going to work exactly as written every single time I use it, barring specific circumstances that most likely won't appear during normal play.

Mother-May-I is shit because how effective I am and whether or not I can even do the thing is dependent on how lenient the GM is and how much they subscribe to rule of cool. I don't want to waste my turn jumping over a bandit to hit the dude behind him just to end up making a fool of myself because the GM decided "nonono, that's too anime, you auto-fail and take 1 point of fall damage."

Then you have mages that can do the same but it's actually hard-capped in the rules.

Like, it's not a fix for an absence of rules, but really any DM should be doing things that the players enjoy, including letting them shine through the descriptions of their actions, balancing any risk vs reward stuff as they see fit.

Any DM who wouldn't let you do the "anime move" and declares you autofail isn't fit to be a DM in the first place. I think anime shit is stupid, especially if I'm running in Skyrim-Land, but if my players define this as fun I'll give it to them because the game requires the DM to be more than a referee of hardcoded rules, especially in editions outside 3rd and 4th.

I don't want my level of enjoyment to be dependent on how much of a faggot the GM is. At least with the rules, if the GM pulls some stupid shit then I can go "but it says right here that..." and get him to STFU when I use my character's abilities as intended and maybe even make him look like a chode if he decides to use GM fiat to make it not work anyways.

"Mother-May-I" is basically like rolling the dice before you actually roll the dice.

The problem is that these systems often don't inform or incentivize the GM to actually do that, meaning that someone might say 'No' thinking they're just following the rules.

Also, worth remembering that 4e actually did have a pretty solid set of rules for improvising actions and letting them be useful and beneficial.

ahk, the issue is that you've never had a good GM.
You could have just said that, it would have saved a lot of time. Must suck always getting shitty GMs
: ^)

None of this defends the system. It's like comparing flaws in different medical treatments and you're lolling it up with "GET A GUD LE DOCTOR XDDDD" shitposts.

>4e actually did have a pretty solid set of rules for improvising actions and letting them be useful and beneficial.

This isn't wholly true, since the power creep of the system and those rules remaining unchanged from their initial printing left them as less useful options than most at-will powers due to the class's at-will powers having dedicated synergy.

You really needed to go out of your way to make improvised actions worthwhile.

But, at least they tried.

A good system helps as well, are you actually saying it's 0% on the system that martials are boring in D&D 3.PF/whatever other similar systems?

Any other system

Your problem is a problem that only exists in Pathfinder, it doesn't even really exist in 3.5 thanks to the ToB classes

read my previous comments plz.
I think DnD/PF set themselves up for failure with obvious caster supremacy, it's one of the many reasons I dont like them.
HOWEVER.
If you are a good player and as long as you dont have a shit GM, you can still have plenty of fun.
That's my argument. In no way am I defending the shitty systems.

5e is a little bit better about this if you're too lazy to learn a new, non d20, system

Ehh. 5e martials are more useful and valuable out of the box, but they aren't any less boring to actually play.

In my eyes, Tome of Battle/Path of War martials manage to be a lot more interesting and still contribute (assuming you're sticking to tier 3/4 classes) in 3.PF.

Then again, a 5e ToB would be glorious.

>it doesn't even really exist in 3.5 thanks to the ToB classes
So you're just going to pretend all the classes that decidedly DO have this problem, don't exist? 3.5 and 5e both have this problem, the only D&D version that doesn't is 4e though it has other problems. Numerous similar games have also tried to solve it (not just caster supremacy in balance, which is possible to work around, but that casters are more interesting and fun to play), I haven't played enough to comment but Fantasy Craft and Iron Kingdoms for example seem to have interesting non-mages.

This isn't Reddit, son. We can't see which comments were yours. Hell, we can't even see if you're the dude that the previous guy was replying to.

On topic: just because a GM CAN patch the flaws in a system, doesn't mean that the system's flaws don't matter. If you houserule extensively enough (good fucking luck), you can probably make FATAL playable, but that doesn't mean it's not a horrific mess or that you shouldn't just play a different, better system instead.

>On topic: just because a GM CAN patch the flaws in a system, doesn't mean that the system's flaws don't matter.

I think the issue for you is that, yes, they ultimately don't matter.
It's a lot harder to troll about how much people need to care about all your complaints when they really don't need to care. Or, to step away from absolutes, they don't need to care anywhere as much as you think they need to.

Well, yeah

Why even bother playing as a standard 3.5 martial when the ToB classes exist?

This horseshit argument is getting annoying. It keeps getting trotted out despite being trashed every time someone falls back on it as a way of avoiding or dismissing criticism.

Because there are people who will actively choose to play a Fighter even if you give them the option of playing a Warblade.

I've seen it happen. I have no fucking idea how or why, but it did.

It's only annoying because it forces you to realize that no one has to respect or value your opinion as much as you seem to. If you honestly think you can force people to obsess about your complaints as much as you do, of course the natural response is to just ignore you.

Then that's their choice, the problem the OP has does not apply to them.

Obviously assuming they don't start complaining later on about how little they can do compared to everyone else. In which case their suffering is their own fault

And yet you keep making threads about it and responding to posts with a holier-than-thou attitude. If you genuinely wanted to ignore people and actually didn't care, then you'd leave, plain and simple. But as it stands you're just shitposting. You're the troll here, not the people having legitimate complaints about the system.

>more engaging combat mechanics for fighters?
I'd have more interesting things they can do outside of combat.

Literally anything else besides 3.pf

>It's only annoying because it forces you to realize that no one has to respect or value your opinion as much as you seem to.
Which is why multiple people have called you out on your bullshit while your only response basically boils down to calling everyone who disagrees with you a "troll?"

The issue is that you think that a discussion is synonymous with endless praise, rather than two parties talking about why they believe a thing or not. Nobody benefits from ignoring a problem and pretending that everything is fine.

If people did that then the community wouldn't have shit like E6 or the tiers system to alleviate most of the system's failings.

Martial characters being allowed to do stuff outside of combat is badwrongfun, though

>Then again, a 5e ToB would be glorious.

B-b-but the Battlemaster user!

5e

What are you on about now?
Why are you so desperate to protect your method of trolling? It's creepy as fuck.

Let's face it. What you call "legitimate complaints" is just you complaining and demanding people to have to respect and pay attention to your complaints, regardless of how much they disagree on their importance. Here, we even have people telling you that there's things that can be easily changed and aren't that big of a deal, and you are demanding that no, people are only allowed to act like it's a really big deal because you think it is.

Holier-than-thou? Better than whatever plane of arrogance you must reside on.

I'm sorry, but you insisting people to take all your trolling seriously is enough to make them take you less seriously.
That's the bottom line, and I'm not really all that sorry that it deflates all of your trolling down to just silly complaints that people are free to ignore.

Or, do you honestly believe you can command and demand attention?

Fantasy Craft.

Every character has access to basic actions in battle like screaming at an enemy to stress them out, or beating on their defenses to tire them out, or going on the defensive. Even the things you COULD do in 3/PF are refined; trip and disarm are quick checks and grapple is very streamlined and simple.

That's just the things everyone can do from the start, you can also buy advanced tricks to really change up combat. You can slap arrows out of the air before they hit you, grab that javelin coming your way and throw it back, swing harder to punish some slippery bastard, rely on your years of training to just know where to jab your spear that one time when you need it most.

Feats for weapons aren't some boring +1/+2/+3. Taking feats with a weapon opens up whole new playstyles. Axe users can chop equipment to pieces and sunder minions in twain with a single blow. Knives become a flurry as every single knife on the user seems to flick from its sheath to the enemy's kidney and back without being handled; that's just how quick it is. Even the poorest shield becomes a mighty bulwark between the enemy and the user, whether the user is bull rushing at full tilt or protecting those standing with him.

So are d20 systems, Blue players, Tau, alignments, 5e, 4e, Quests, OOTS, Critical Role, Old Memes, New Memes, Setting discussion with no system attached, the term BBEG, 40k fanfics, Harry Potter, JoJo, Generals, Filename Threads, Anime, 2HUs, Monstergirls and other fetishes I don't like, fetishes I do like, and any dice that aren't GameScience.

>He still replies

Every word you type only further proves my point. You have zero arguments to defend your system, other to pretend that what people say isn't valid because they're trolls for disagreeing with you. You say to ignore them but just can't help but do the opposite. If we were legitimate trolls in the first place, then you're only feeding the machine. If you were to actually refute any points that're made, then you'd have to acknowledge that, holy shit, we might have a point and know what we're talking about.

You're fighting a battle that only exists in your head, and somehow you're still losing. 3.5 has glaring flaws. Admit it.

Monk archetypes with battlemaster dice would be cool though, and we still need a full on Warlord class(or a Barbarian/Pally equivalent)

Eurgh. We'll never get a Warlord class because Mearls is an idiot who doesn't understand his own system.

He actually repeated the 'Shouting hands back on' bullshit when HP is, you know, a fucking abstraction. Restoring morale and reinvigorating fighting spirit is a perfect fucking justification for martial healing but martials aren't allowed to have nice things, fuck.

I'm not insisting anything of anyone ITT, if anything, you're the one insisting that everyone ITT agree with you, lest they be labeled as trolls when all they're doing is stating flaws that they had with the system.

We're arguing about mechanical flaws that have already been addressed and acknowledged by the community, who already made house rules to fix the bulk of its flaws while allowing people to play a class without accidentally breaking the game for everyone involved.

Or are you going to claim that you know better than people who have been playing 3.PF for over a decade and understand how the system works?

3.5 has flaws. There are trap options. There are broken abilities. Nobody is discounting that.

What's really wrong with the game is that it has a Meta. It requires balancing and developing tiers of play and restrictions before going into the game.

But you saying 3.5 as a whole is Shit? That's like saying MTG Legacy with No Banlist makes MTG a terrible game.

Now, as to whether the presence of the meta of the game is a good thing? That's where it becomes subjective.

You're being called trolls because that's what you are. Pretending otherwise is a joke at this point.
I am not defending a system here. I am highlighting what you do, your methods, your motivations, and your insistences. At no point, none, does anyone have to take you or your complaints seriously.
None. As much as it must infuriate you, as much as you must resent that objective fact, the harsh truth is that no matter how much you complain and pretend you are doing so for the sake of discussion, your trolling is obvious and easily ignored.

Now, tell me otherwise. Insist I, or anyone, needs to care how much you complain. Go on. Force me to take you seriously.

It's amazing how much you care about telling people nobody cares.

Allow me to clarify.

Care about what you're complaining about, not that you're complaining in general.

>You're being called trolls because that's what you are.
pic related
>I am not defending a system here. I am highlighting what you do, your methods, your motivations, and your insistences.
...by calling me and everyone else who disagrees with you a troll?
>At no point, none, does anyone have to take you or your complaints seriously.
Yet at the end of the day, you keep posting so you have to have taken me seriously enough to, y'know, not just hide my post and go on about your business (assuming you had any).
>As much as it must infuriate you, as much as you must resent that objective fact
>objective
I don't think you know what that word means.
>the harsh truth is that no matter how much you complain and pretend you are doing so for the sake of discussion, your trolling is obvious and easily ignored.
Which is, again, why you keep posting responses? Getting mixed signals here chief.
>Force me to take you seriously.
The sad thing is you think anyone ITT respects you.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't feel the need to clarify. But you do, so you just keep replying.

The pattern of behaviour we're seeing is kinda amazing. It's almost like some sort of inverse trolling. The poster is so paranoid and self-righteous about fighting a particular kind of trolling, they end up spamming and replying in ways almost identical to actual trolls.

Allow me to clarify further.
Your individual compaints, as in, the subject of your complaint, can be easily dismissed as unimportant.
Your insistence on complaining, however, is annoying.

In other words, you can't force people to agree with you on how important a particular grievance is, but you can make people care that you are trolling non-stop even when people are pointing that out and telling you to quit it.

Same page now?

You forgot Elves, GURPS, furry races, doing anything different with any given race, hating Terry Pratchett, and anything that can be construed as Magical Realm.

And i like all theae things, i guess I'm so far into badwrongfun that Veeky Forums can't save me.

>I don't care
>Allow me to clarify
If you had a bow and ended every sentence with "b-b-baka!" then you'd be a shoo-in for a tsundere my friend.

Wait, you hate Terry Pratchett? You got issues man. Is there a Sociopath watch list? Maybe submit your name just to be safe, and get help.

way to ignore the trolls buttlord lets see how much you don't care ololololol

If you have a mental block, you should just say that to begin with. It's a waste of clarifying what someone cares about if you're just going to ignore the clarification.

Well, hate's a strong word. While I enjoy parts of his work (especially anything with Vimes) I think a majority of his writings range from terrible to meh. The way Veeky Forums sucks his cock at any opportunity baffles me. It's like seeing a bizzarro Veeky Forums who praises Dean Koontz.

I'm just saying, if you really didn't care then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'll be straight with you, I don't like you, I don't respect you, I think you're either a troll or a retard, and your points are juvenile and rife with non-answers as well as ad-homs and strawmen.

Yet even saying that there's nothing more to be gained from this discussion, and that your clarifications are moot, you'll still reply to this post anyways because that's the sort of basic bitch that you are, no matter how much you claim you don't care.

So at this point, either you reply and prove me right or you stop replying and the thread doesn't get derailed further. So what's it gonna be?

Why the fuck wouldn't you just use another system if you're going to eyeball shit.

Hell, there're rules for squeezing beneath a giant and rules to try and pin it to the ground.

I already clarified that I DO care about you complaining in general. What I've explained, twice already, is that what can't be done is to make people accept that a complaint about a system is important in regards to its effect on the system, ie. care about what you're complaining about, rather than you complaining in general.

But, I do want to walk away from this argument. I simply wished to do so without you going away with a false notion of what was said. So, i extend my own offer, and don't bother replying, to prevent this thread from being derailed any further.

Basic bitch it is.

Nah, I can see what you mean. Not every book was great, between his development and decline as a writer, but every one of his books are worth reading once for the bits of humor and wisdom. Vimes was definitely his best body of work, though I put Moist's books ahead of a few of Vimes' books.

still, hating Pratchett is a bankable offense.

4e PHB2 is still my favourite DnD book

Take that as your victory if you need to, you've achieved nothing of actual value.

The main thing to note about GURPS combat is that each turn takes 1 second rather than six, which means combat is more about resource management than it is in D&D.

>Still replied
Oh man, you sure are proving how much you don't care right now.

Lay off man, now you're looking as bad as him

He's obviously DESPERATE for the last word, just let him have it, it won't magically make him right

Your example is not just stupid because of how low stat bonuses are or because you want someone to roll 2 stat checks to do a single fucking thing, tanking their chances of actually doing it even if they've got very high stats, it's fucking stupid because the game is specifically set up to NOT allow you to do this. Do you think you take AoOs for attempting combat maneuvers for no reason?

Here's the thing though, are you really going to stop game and look up this one particular rule that will most likely never crop during game ever again from that point forward?

My GM has a problem with doing this too often during game. He's not a bad GM mind but it gets grating when we're in the middle of something like combat and the GM stops combat, pulls out the book, and looks up a specific ruling that may or may not exist rather than just eyeballing it and saying "eh, sure, why the hell not? Rolling with [modifier/(dis)advantage] for your action."

So much great content, so many good ideas... And then Essentials crippled the line and sent it to an early grave. Fucking tragic.

Why should I when I've already established that I neither like nor respect him? Besides, after this thread 404's, nobody is going to give a shit about what was said ITT.

I will never understand why they introduced the knight, and the nerf that completely destroyed any chance the knight class had of being usable, in the same book

Also the entire Bladesinger class, even with the vampire, the assassin, the boring-ass destined scion ED, and all the brainless essentials martials, I still consider Bladesinger to be the worst thing to come out of 4e

Eh, opinions and all that.

Although, he is one of the few authors who made me cry like a baby. When Vimes was shouting Where is my Cow in Thud!, I just lost it.

You got your Warlord class, it's called the Purple Dragon Knight.

That's what Mearls thinks a 5e Warlord should be.

No I didn't, I got shit on a plate after already being served shit on a plate(Battlemaster).

No, sorry, when a thread is about games with more interesting combat than basic 3.5 martial combat and you come into the thread to REEEEEEEEE about people not liking 3.5 and spam argumentum ad populum and relativist bullshit, you are automatically worse than any poster in that thread.

Nah, Battlemaster is ok, it's just to Warlord what Eldritch Knight is to a wizard. If you'd gotten a full Warlord class alongside it, it would be a great option when you want to be supporting fighter, instead of fighting supporter.

Battlemaster is 'okay' in the framework of 5E, or when compared to abortions like the 3.5 Fighter(and only sometimes), but it's complete shit compared to the classes it's based off of.

Well, outside of the bullshit classes, the powerlevel of 5e is much lower overall than in 4e, so I don';t really see that as a problem

As long as no one's playing a druid, cleric, wizard or bard

>the powerlevel of 5e is much lower overall than in 4e
More like lower than every edition of D&D with no options to scale it up aside from magic item spam. It's one of the reasons I really dislike it.

That's fair, I like having a low-power option alongside the high-power options so it doesn't bother me