Why does DnD still use spell slots instead of mana pools?

Why does DnD still use spell slots instead of mana pools?

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Just like your image, D&D is married to its legacy to the point that it cannot shed its conventions.
That being said, there are alternate spell point rules in modern editions. Just gotta find the rules for them.

Do I really need to explain it? Because once you invest into that sort of system assholes will exploit it.

That is why some people hate psionics.

Lv 5 wizard can cast only 1 fireball per day. Psionics can use all their "mana" to cast only most powerful spells ignoring the weaker ones. That means the can potentially can 6 fireballs a day.

So if (read as he will most definetly) spellcaster enters a fight with big number of mana points he will just nuke everything in a room until nothing moves or he will cast single target spells into one guy over and over again.

Having spell slots gives you wide range of weaker to stronger spells. You actually need to think what you will cast and when.

But psionics are universally regarded as more balanced than magic

Because it might be awful, but it's not THAT bad.

5e's spell slot system is actually not Vancian: it's more like the old-school Final Fantasy way of it where you have a number of castings for each tier, but those castings can be of any available spell and not just ones pledged to those slots.

>[Citation needed]

I've never played a wizard in an older edition of D&D, how do the mechanics differ from 5e's wizard?

That sounds like a plain old sorcerer to me.

That is not how things work in mana based systems at all.

Especially when there are consequences to going hard all the time or after blowing your magical load it will take a while to regenerate your mana.

Mana systems make me sick

>why does DnD still use the second blandest way to limit magic per day instead of the first blandest?

Actually, yes. Wizards in 5e are a lot like 3.5 sorcerers, while sorcerers are plainly worse wizards.

>what is hard to regenerate mana
>what is substance dependent mana
>like vampires depending on blood in Masquerade

this would make a lot more sense if you weren't defending a system where a wizard can end the fight in a single spell

1d4chan.org/wiki/Tier_System

giving spellcasters even more versatility would surely improve D&D ...

Because the basic meta hasn't changed. The idea was that magic is about managing a very limited resource. You are locked into certain spells, with limited uses. This tight control makes selection and usage very important, especially if the GM is clever about throwing unexpected encounters your way.

This is a counter to the raw power that spells had when applied properly, like toasting a dozen guys or once (which the archer can't do) or flying over an obstacle (which the acrobatic rogue cannot do). Caught with the wrong spells, or spending them poorly, is a huge hit to the ability of the party.

More recent editions like 5e have narrowed the power gap between 'caster at his best' and 'non-caster' significantly, so casters are less constrained. Cantrips are more useful, spell slots are more flexible, sorcerers exist, and so on. But the core concept deep down is still there and still true.

It's not quite. More like a rotating sorcerer. Broader overall spell selection but more limited by the day.
Sorcerers have their own advantages and typically better damage per round thanks to metamagics.

I like spell slots. Dark Souls uses slots, but instead of my class having slots, it is the spells themselves that have slots. I think the slots increase based on a stat. In anycase i really like the way Dark Souls does it's spell slots, i think it opens the door for more variety of spell values.

It's more numbers to keep track of, but I don't think thats an issue for competent people.

Not quite. 5e Wizards still have a spellbook, but each day they prepare x number of spells of y level from the spells they know. Of these spells, they can cast them sort of like a 3.5 Sorcerer would. So if I have Fireball and Lightning Bolt prepared, and 5 level 3 slots, I could cast 3 Fireballs and 3 Lightning Bolts, or 5 Fireballs and 1 Lightning Bolt, or any such combination I want. This is different from older editions, in which you had to specify EXACTLY which slots had which spells, so if you prepared Fireball and Lightning Bolt as your level 3 spells you'd have to specify exactly how many of each you wanted.

Sorcerers in 5e don't have that. They just have the spells they know, a smaller number of spells they can cast per day, but more slots to cast them with. Less versatility, more output, essentially. However, metamagic (Being able to alter specifics of your spells like maximizing damage or increasing the saving throw and such) which used to be a feat-based thing Wizards mostly had is now a Sorcerer class feature straight-up. My big problem with Sorcerers is that they have an awesome way to be elemental specialists, pyromancers or cryomancers or lightning mages...but the spell selection just doesn't support it because there will be a bunch of levels which just don't have spells of that element. Being a pyromancer is great, for example, but good luck being a lightning-themed mage based off Nicola Tesla at higher levels when zappy spells just stop showing up.

>limit
>"I should just be able to cast whatever I want whenever I want with no limits and be a god because I'm smart!"
>>/lgbt/

Is that still how it works in 5e?

>good luck being a lightning-themed mage

I think they were.moving towards fixing this with the elemental bloodlines in unearthed arcana though of COURSE there's no lightning one

One easy fix I think would be to allow an aspects sorcerer to change the element type of other spells to their chosen element. A DM can house rule that easy enough I think. It's not like direct damage spells are that powerful anyway

What I find funny is that sorcerers and wizards use the same system of magic when it's implied that sorcerers magic is innate where the wizards magic is learned.

It would thematically make more sense for the sorcerer to use a mana system

Or you could use more interesting methods, like cast from health, cast from fatigue, charge-based, skill-based, perils-linked, et c.

Generally not quite, unless the fight is a lot of weak enemies (Fireball hits for very good damage) or they're willing to blow their highest power slots which they get very few of (only one level 8 and level 9 per day, full stop, no way to get more other than Epic Boons).
There are no save-or-lose spells at all. In fact, the only save-or-lose effect at all belongs to the Monk.

I'm not defending it. I hate dnd. But you have a point. A wizard can end a fight with a single spell. Now release him from his shackles that are spell slots. Let him cast that one spell 3-5 times in a single fight.

Better yet on higher levels power increases and available mana increases. While wizard can cast only 4 highest level spells (and maybe one or two bonus spells) and then needs to use lower spell slots psion (or mana based spellcaster) doesn't need to waste his mana on lesser spells. Psion can spend ALL of his mana to cast 9th level powers 20 times a day.

Sounds like the Psion has way too much mana. If I were designing the system and wanted him to be equivalent to a Wizard who can only cast 1 9th level spell per day, I would give him enough power to cast 3 or 4, at the cost of spending virtually ALL his casting ability for that day on those spells. It's a pretty fair trade at that point I think, and generally he should want to ration his power in order to avoid running out too fast. It's much more of a problem if you only end up with one or two encounters per day, but no per-day system is going to be balanced for that.

>instead of mana pools?
Why would you assume Mana pool is any better compared to other methods?

Assuming this is a 3.5 conversation at least they really are. The main reasons wizards have an edge is that there are a shit ton more spells than powers to choose from, and a lot of the stupidly OP ones that end a fight with some difficult to avoid random effect (like irresistible dance) don't have a psionic alternative. It also helps the wizmen that their weaker spells improve automatically as they level as opposed to psions who need to spend more points to keep up. Using spell point UA rules makes wizards even better though

It offers more flexibility in combat. More tactical choices for the player and less out of combat bookkeeping.

>There are no save-or-lose spells at all.
That's not entirely true, but there are exceedingly few of them.

More flexibility than ANY other system other there? Less bookkeeping than ANY other system?

I'll need to see some comparisons.

The only one I know that's in the book is Imprisonment, but that requires a ridiculously huge investment of [X*500 where X is the target's HD] GP and has a solid 1 minute casting time (10 combat rounds), and thus hardly counts at all.

Who needs comparisons when you have mathematical certainty? The bookkeeping on a point pool amounts to keeping track of a single number. The only possible way for it to be less is for there to be no number to track, which would imply an unlimited system.

Similarly, how can you have more flexibility than being allowed to cast any spell you please from your entire list of known spells?

That's complete bullshit, because your example hinges on shitty spell cost balance.

Take DSA for example (The Dark Eye in english). It uses a mana pool system, but damage is usually done on a 1-for-1 basis. So a typical wizard with somewhere around 30 hit points and 40 spell points can blast an enemy away, but is then pretty much fucked for the rest of the week (because mana regenerates quite slowly). It encourages tactical usage of magic and support spells, rather than overwhelming blasting.

And...?

>That's complete bullshit, because your example hinges on shitty spell cost balance.

>Why does DnD still use spell slots instead of mana pools?

He asked for specific system and I told him why it isn't a good idea to change it into mana.

Because D&D is incapable of change and has basically nailed itself to some dumb design concepts, of which Vancian Casting is one.

They basically removed Metamagic from everyone except the Sorcerer. Removing content is usually bad, and this is a great example of a bad design choice.

FUCK metamagic

5e uses it because old editions used it.

Old editions used it because managing spell slots and planning your loadout for the day is an interesting resource management mechanic deeper than 'I cast whatever'.

>6 fireballs a day
And nothing else because he wasted all his points

And he doesn't need to. He used lesser number of higher level spells to achieve higher potential.

Would you rather cast 5d6 fireball 6 times or 5d6 fireball only once (and having only 2 2d6 offensive spells prepared) because spell slots limit you?
>Attacked by multiple enemies.
> I cast fireball. They are wounded by still alive. Well fuck. That was my only high level spell.
>I cast fireball. They are wounded. I cast it again. And again. And again. Thank you mana pool.

Casting only 1 invisibility spell or covering entire party in invisibility?

Stop grasping on straws. You clearly don't see the full possible potential. You only see possibility for versatility. To cast a spell you need at some specific moment moment of time. You don't see the breaking point and possible abuse.

Nothing's wrong with mana pools as long as you can't use more than a quarter of your maximum mana at a time.

Agreed, with the addition of: You CAN use more than a quarter, but it's a roll (DC harder every time. Resets with a long rest) to not lose control and either fuck yourself up or cause the spell to be flawed in some way.

> I cast fireball. They are wounded by still alive. I cast a Slightly lower level spell. And again. And again. All of my party members have had an equal opportunity to contribute in this team oriented game. I didn't end a difficult encouter in the same amount of turns as a simple goblin ambush would have taken. Thank you spell slots.
fixed

The argument wasn't about whether or not it helped to contribute to a team based game. If that was the case, any which way you slice it Wizard and other casters are still the top of the shit heap, slots or mana.

The problem is mana pools let you spam high level spells, while spell slots relegate you to having only one high level spell, when usually said high level spells are the only things you want to cast in the first place.

Stop trying to change the subject.

Sorcerers wackily manipulating magic on the fly fits their flavor much better than a wizard doing the same with rote-learned spells.

mana works out fine in anima, but it's balanced by recovery being a huge pain in the ass (read: taking multiple days to recover the energy spent on a few low level spells) unless you heavily invest in speeding it up and the system having several other magic systems that work differently.

in D&D all spellcasting is either wizard or "wizard but with gimmick X" at it's core, so by introducing mana you basically force people into playing any spellcaster in a different way and that's something they don't wanna do, so they keep it.

What you think is happening
>OMG PSION IS CASTING 5-6 FIREBALL WHEN WIZARD CAN ONLY CAST 1 OP!!!!

What is actually happening
>Psion has to blow all of his PP to cast those fireballs, which do not scale to his level whatsoever, so a level 10 Psion has to spend 10 PP to actually achieve that effect
>plus unlike the Wizard, the Psion actually has a limited choice in powers and powers are weaker as a whole than spells are
>meanwhile the Wizard can still throw out 3 fireballs as soon as he hits level 5, but he's also got a ton of autoscaling level 1 and level 2 damage spells, and by level 10 those fireballs are 10d6 for free. Account for metamagic and a fireball spammer is throwing out 12 fireballs a day while still having a full complement of level 1 and 2 spells while the Psion can deplete their entire stock of PP to throw out 10.
>plus spell and power damage is shit if you're not a Sorceror abusing Arcane Fusion tricks to orb everyone within a 100 yard circumference from you 4 times in a row anyways so why the fuck does any of this matter? Oh wait it doesn't you don't know what you're talking about.

thing is allow the wizard to cast more spells and be more flexible in which spells to cast also allows you to reduce the power of each individual spell which in turn makes balancing the magical and non-magical classes easier

also if we're talking about 3.5, a psion using all his pp on his highest level spells is not being efficient in the slightest, some of the most useful powers they have are enhanced low level ones (that cost as much as high level ones due to said enhancements) and a psion generally runs out of power long before the wizard runs out of spells

>when usually said high level spells are the only things you want to cast in the first place.
This is only true if you're a retard who doesn't know how to play a caster.

>The problem is mana pools let you spam high level spells
which is a problem of shit design, not mana itself.

If you can spam high level stuff with mana, your system is broken either because

>mana isn't valuable as a resource due to having too much/too easily recovered
or

>your spells are broken by costing too little mana, or lower level spells not being as good as high level ones because you designed them anime power level style where as you learn higher level spells you get bigger numbers and little else so early ones are pointless

or some combination of the three

your specific example of mana letting you spam high level spells is faulty because you can do the same shit with spell slots. even without the one hour dungeon crawl meme if spamming fireball is seriously so effective over everything else in a game that you can and should do it as often as possible I'll just prepare 5 copies of it in all my spell slots which is fundamentally the same as using all my mana to do the same thing only with more busywork.

my theory is that everyone who hates the 3.5 incarnation of psionics has failed to read the "a psion is limited to spending his total level in power points per power" rule and as a direct result believes a level 1 psion can somehow shit out an 8d6 alpha strike by spending everything he has

You can technically do something like that with Overchannel, but A) that's fucking stupid because it leaves you a sitting duck for the entire rest of the day, B) ending an encounter with your entire stock of PP isn't overpowered, but it's likely you could find another power that could end or cripple an encounter for a cheaper cost anyways, and C) this will most likely kill you due to Overchannel backlash on a d4 HP class.

>ohwaityoureseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg

Older editions ran off "Vancian Casting". You had a number of Spells Memorized slots depending on your level, which also controlled the highest level of spell you could memorize.

Each time you studied your spellbook, which you did as part of an 8 hour rest, you could fill those Memorization slots with spells as you saw fit.

Whenever you cast a spell, it was a one-shot deal; the spell slot dedicated to it was wiped clean and you couldn't cast it anymore.

So, if you want to cast Fireball twice, you need to devote two level 3 Memorized Spell Slots to Fireball.

This meant a Wizard in pre-4th edition was essentially a walking gun with so many bullets loaded in it. Once you shot one, it was gone for good until you spent time reloading.

The 5e version is much better.

Because spell slots are the better system, as evidenced by the sharp decline of the Final Fantasy franchise since they ditched them.

overchannel only lets you increase your manifester level by 1 at lv 1

which at best lets you do 2d6 single target damage as none of the lv 1 powers upgrade particularly well

in return you deal 1d8 damage to yourself at lv 1 as a d4 hp class

there's plenty of other ways of dealing 2d6 damage at lv 1 that don't involve suicide

>metamagic equivalent requires you to spend actions like a Sorceror
>limited ways to expand your powers known
>powers don't scale with level, and outside of a very, very small list, are universally weaker than spells: see Greater Magic Weapon vs Metaphysical Weapon for exactly why this is an issue
>have to spend a feat to get a familiar equivalent
Yeah they're way more powerful than Wizards bro, how could I have not seen this?

they really are
only thing psions are better at than wizards is blaster, which is universally considered to be the least efficient use of magic in the game

Psions aren't really better than Wizards at blasting when you account for orbs.

psions don't require an action for their equivalent of metamagic but they need to use a limited resource which requires a full action to recover (resource being limited to a maximum of like 4 stored in a minmaxed build and usually limited to 1 in total)

That's the point. Psionic focus isn't free.

they can deal 30d6 points of non-magical damage with a 3th level spell (unupgraded, so full lv3 equivalency)
is there a trick to get orbs to that level of efficiency?

>it's more like the old-school Final Fantasy way of it
That's because Final Fantasy used simplified AD&D rules.

Blood points work really well, I think. Tremere shit is my jam. Bag of weird herbs and shit, book of weird lore and shit, coins enchanted with that ritual that lets you stash blood inside them, a fucking machete Warded vs Kindred, and your trusty shotgun with silver shot is all you need in unlife.

>citing 1d4chan

Seriously?

It's the same thing as people reading the powers table and assuming everyone can cast disintegrate at level 1 (it requires level 3 with max stats, it has at most a 45% chance of success, and a 5% chance of killing yourself, no one who actually played a psionicist in 2e ever used disintegrate more than once)

>implying 1d4chan came up with the tier list

And this is where you are wrong. If he can cast 9 level powers then he CAN spend all his powerpoints to cast ONLY 9 level powers. Sure he can only spend a finite number of powerpoints per turn but that doesn't change the fact he CAN cast only 9 level powers and not waste his time with lower ones.

So in short. He can't do more dmg with his fireballs but he will still have a possibility to cast 6 of them when he reaches level 5. While wizard can only cast 1 (max 2 if he has 20 intelligence on level 5)

Does anyone else here think that people are conflating "3.X/Pathfinder psionics is more balanced than 3.X/Pathfinder Vancian" with "mana points are more balanced than spell slots"?

3.X/Pathfinder psionics is indeed absolutely more balanced than 3.X/Pathfinder Vancian, but not because of power points. It is because of the way individual psionic powers are constructed, tamed down from their Vancian versions, rendered more expensive, and/or simply made to do less. There is no real 1st-level Color Spray equivalent in psionics, for example, nor a 2nd-level Create Pit or 3.5 Glitterdust equivalent.

Power points alone are not more balanced than Vancian spell slots, because Vancian slots are inherently more limiting and require more meticulous (some would find this enjoyable) management of resources. Rather than spam the best option you have available as with power points, Vancian forces you to manage your "prepackaged shots" with great care, in exchange for great power.

Directly translating 3.X/Pathfinder-style Vancian slots spell slots to mana points, even at a reduced rate, actually gets you something horrifically overpowered:
d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

So yes, 3.X/Pathfinder psionics are far more balanced than 3.X/Pathfinder Vancian, but let us not pretend for a second that such balance was due to power points.

>If he can cast 9 level powers then he CAN spend all his powerpoints to cast ONLY 9 level powers.
Which isn't better than spending your points like someone who isn't a drooling fucking retard.

and he's a fun fact: wizards can end an entire encounter in a single lv 9 spell, psions generally cannot do so in a single lv 9 power

and it requires a lv 17 psion before he can LEARN lv 9 powers so even if you somehow managed to get a low level character to the point it could shit out 17 pp in a single turn it couldn't spend it on a power it does not know


and once again I cannot stress this to much: a psion literally cannot spend all his power points on a single spell, it is not allowed in the rules

The point is that a mana based system isn't inherently less balanced than a Vancian system, which is what fucktard keeps claiming.

>Rather than spam the best option you have available as with power points, Vancian forces you to manage your "prepackaged shots" with great care, in exchange for great power.

your first paragraph is pointing out that vancian doesn't just mean 3.x, then you make a complaint that mainly applies to 3.x only

in 4/5 you can have way more control over what you spend spell slots on in the heat of a situation, and failing that sorcerers exist

I miss the playtest Gish dragon sorcerers.

however due to the inherent flexibility of the power point/mana pool system, especially considering how 3.5 (3.0 psionics suck monkey balls) powers can be upgraded to deal more damage or gain additional effects, it also allows individual powers to be less powerful without hindering the character itself (as evidenced by the fact that despite being toned down compared to the wizard, the psion is still one of the most powerfull classes around)

high lv wizard spells by necessity need to be ungodly powerful to justify their few uses, high level psionic powers not so much given you can theoretically cast nothing but them

a mana system gives system developers a lot more design space

in what regard I said he can spend all his power points on single spell?

Wizard has four 1st level spells, four 2nd level spells, four 3rd level etc. all the way to 4 9th level spells.

Psion has 383 powerpoints (343 from class. 40 from bonus points from intelligence modifier) Each 9th level power costs 17 points. If he decides he can cast 9th level power 22 times.

And this is why you don't change the spell slots in dnd. It is broken system. You can't fix it. You want mana wizards? Play different system.

I swear to god I sometimes think some of you people have reading disorder. OP asked about dnd, spell slots and changing it into mana pool. I explained why this is stupid and 100% chance of system abuse.

generally speaking you only need a single lv 9 spell per encounter
maybe 3 or 4 if its a really tough one

and the wizard's lv 9 abilities are flat out better than the psion.

How?

>6 fireballs a day
Or no he can't. Fireball is higher level so costs more. He can use one of those plus 3 magic missile, or can choose to use 9 magic missile and no fireball.

Or whatever

>Bookkeeping

They are WIZARDS

>30d6 points of non-magical damage with a 3th level spell (unupgraded
Mind telling me how you're supposed to go about doing that?

4e has perhaps the most tactically engaging take on "Vancian," because of the way you really do have only "one shot" per battle for most of your abilities, and the way you have at-will powers to rely on.

That said, I do think that the daily power recharge system should have been more like 13th Age's daily recharge, where a "day" simply meant "three to five battles regardless of actual in-game days."

Yes he can. 3rd level power costs 5 points. He has 30 powerpoints. Basic math.

>I swear to god I sometimes think some of you people have reading disorder. OP asked about dnd, spell slots and changing it into mana pool. I explained why this is stupid and 100% chance of system abuse.

This isn't about psion vs wizard. It is about wizard potential getting steroids when switching to mana pool.

And yes. Psion can do similar thing on level 5 with Energy Burst.

>psions generally cannot do so in a single lv 9 power
Most mid/high-level powers are situational garbage, the good stuff is in levels 1-3.

>Psion can do similar thing on level 5 with Energy Burst.
???

there's a good number of high level powers I would gladly use

lv 5 wizard fireball 5d6
lv 5 psion energy burst 5d6

do you have reading disorder?

AoE vs AoE centered around you. Completely different effects.

Fireball hits people 600+ feet away.
Energy Burst hits all your allies.

A 5th level wizard gets 5d6 out of a 3rd level spell slot.
A 5th level psion gets 5d6 out of "a 3rd level spell slot."
A 10th level wizard gets 10d6 out of a 3rd level spell slot.
A 10th level psion gets 10d6 out of "two 3rd level spell slots."

Any recommendations of good systems that use mana pools?

Spell Slots are better and a more interesting choice both mechanically and thematically.

Not really.

>He asked for specific system and I told him why it isn't a good idea to change it into mana.

But the actual mana system already in the game (psionics) is actually better balanced on multiple levels, so you are just kinda full of shit and don't know what you are talking about?

This discussion isn't gonna go anywhere, but to be sincere for a second neither system is outright better - just more preferable, or more suited to a specific person or feel of game. There's nothing wrong with spell slots as a system. There's nothing wrong with mana pools either.

I personally like spell slots in D&D. I don't think it's mechanical baggage that needs to be shed; it definitely adds more to the game than it takes away for me. It's not really like it is in the Jack Vance books it's taken from but that's also OK. Like much of what has been ripped off for D&D it's become its own thing.

>you are just kinda full of shit

He isn't asking to play psions. He is asking why dnd uses spell slots and not mana. Learn to read, not latch on segments and automatically going into psions defence. Because god forbid someone says something against psions.