Wizard shoots some fire at you and does 20d6 at 20th level

>Wizard shoots some fire at you and does 20d6 at 20th level

>Barbarian hits you with an axe and does 1d8+5 at 20th level

No self respecting Barbarian would be doing that little damage. They would still be doing less, slightly offset by their ability to do so reliably. Then again, pic related is why talking about HP is kinda irrelevant.

That isn't what minmaxing means though lol

>Wizard at power level 10 fires a PL 10 Ranged Area Burst Damage fireball

>Barbarian lifts a massive hunk of earth from the ground and throws it at Wizard for Ranged area burst damage 10, or thunderclap Affliction 10 to rattle the fuck out his brains, or knock him on his ass just by stomping the ground

Feels good to play Mutants and Masterminds 3e, where incredible Strength actually means incredible strength.

>I want to WIN my TTRPG

>Wizard at int 16 casts a quake, using all of his zeon and wrecks a city

>Fighter at str 16 decides that punching the floor IS a good way to also cast quake, at any moment he wants to use an indiscriminate area attack, then proceeds to slam the wizard with +absurd damage

Feels good to play anima, where incredible Strength actually means incredible strength.

> Barbarian hits you with an axe and does 1d8+5 at 20th level
> 6 or 7 times every turn until the end of time

>it's ok casters can end any encounter ever in 1 turn 8 times a day, after all barbs can hit 6 times per turn forever.

How them penalties on successive attacks working out for ya? Because you're almost guaranteed to miss with half of those attacks.

>Half
If only, I'm a Unchained monk (full BaB and 24 Str) with 7 attacks and my % of hit against the average CA of a creature of my CR is 43%, and I have less penalties than the Barb of our group.

>level 20 barbarian
>one attack with a mundane axe
Shitty bait

I use +1 hit/+2 dmg for every step of Strength, vs +1 hit/+1 dmg/+1 ac for every step of Dexterity.

Of course I would never suggest anyone else violate Sacred RAW.

It's only OK when they can't do it more than once a week/month and the martial's damage is fucking relevant, because when "x attacks a turn" means "Instagib target enemy" the wizard's "Instasuck target enemy" is balanced with his out of combat utility.


For this great, awesome balance, crafted by 200iq+ mensa certified chess grandmaster minds bognadoff approved, basically they could have fixed the world in about 3s, but they decided that fixing 3.5 flaws was more important, this is a SECRET SYSTEM do not, and I repeat *DONOT* tell *ANYONE*don't play 3.5PF.

Going to use Pathfinder as an example, because it's what I have the most recent experience with. Obligatory disclaimer that dealing direct damage at level 20 really isn't efficient for a 20th level wizard. Straight blasts are quickly outpaced by spells capable of changing the courses of entire battles, and when you really need to take down a single opponent, save-or-dies are more readily available at that level. But sure, there are spells (starting at around 7th level) which will deal d6 per CL in damage to an area, to a max of 20d6, averaging 70 damage to each individual which fails their save and doesn't have resistance to that energy type and doesn't have improved evasion.

Meanwhile, a basic Barbarian-
Str: 18 (pt buy) + 2 (race) + 6 (item) + 5 (level up increases) + 4 (rage, or equivalent bonuses from the Unchained version) = 35 str, with a mod of +12
Two-handing a +5 greataxe with power-attack, means a damage of 1d12 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement bonus) + 12*1.5 (two-handing str) + 18 (two-handing power-attack) = 1d12 + 41, for an average of 47.5 damage per attack. Now you get four attacks/round in a full attack.

Of course both examples can be further optimized for damage, but this was a bare-bones example. Sure a blaster Wizard will put out more damage, but the DPR of a high-level barbarian can still be respectable. The Wizard's real advantage is the sheer number of OTHER things he can do.

Barbarian hits you 4 times, and it'll be for 4((2d6)+9+5) {80} vs 20d6 {70}.

The barbarian never runs out, either.

Learn the rules, memester.

What kind of level 20 campaign are you running where an entire encounter dies to 20d8 fire damage? Most enemies of that level will eat that shit for breakfast and come back for more.
Alternatively, just put more than 8 encounters in per day. Put some time pressire in to limit the wizard's naps if its still causing you trouble. The wizard's weakness is his resources, if you don't exploit that how do you plan to challenge your players?

I genuinely don't understand in which scenario a lvl 20 barbarian is only dealing 1d8+5 damage.

Which has a 20th level Barbarian with 24 strength dealing 1d12+20 x2 attacks, assuming no criticals or magic weapons involved.

>When first post is best post....

Also reminder wizards

You should try to take bonus to hit into account
your {80} damage is much less when you realize you hit with a -5 on the second attack, -10 on the third and -15 on the fourth.

The Barbarian is also not going to hit with 2 out of those 4 attacks against something appropriate to his level unless her gets really fucking lucky.

Those in where the caster doesn't use damage spells and actually ends the encounter

>Will an entire seismic plate out of existence because it annoyed you

Feels good to play Nobilis, where physical strength means nothing.

>All this talk about DPR
Yep, dealing 80 damage a round is relevant vs things that have 200-400 HP and have NO PENALTIES for fighting at 1hp or full hp.


Why do D&Drones always forget this fact?

>Barbarian moved.
>Barbarian is using a nonmagical longsword (no idea why).
>Barbarian didn't put ASIs in strength.
>Barbarian isn't raging.

I mean, you have to try real hard to make yourself that shit as a barbarian.

At that point you may as well compare it to a wizard casting sleep and wondering why it doesn't effect CR 20 opponents.

5e

>transforming spells
>damage+
>wizard transforming to do more damage than a barbarian
Not if the barbarian is build competently.

>Play nobilis
>A seismic plate, the entirety of a fucking big chunk of ruck annoys you

user... you have explaining to do.

Well OP, you now have two better options to work with.

I never said DPR was relevant. I just pointed out that the barbarian isn't doing 1d8+5 a round unless he's willfully retarded.

Why would you ever cast fireball and not gate or maze or something useful

I mean by this logic the wizard is going to miss his fireball sometimes too, if we're taking that into account.

>not capping leveling at level 6

>Barbarian deals 200 damage in one turn
>Wizard cast baleful polimorph, turns 500 HP monster into 1 HP frog, steps on it
That's what
>Transforming spells
>Damage+
Means

Actually make that three.

So extreme cherry picking. I mean I understand it's a b8 thread but damn, it still would have worked with a single attack at say 1d12+40 or something.

You're shitting me.

We're talking about damage spells though. Utility spells are a different issue entirely.

Fireball doesn't "miss", the enemy saves, and it will still deals half damage, while if your Barb misses deals 0

Then magic missile with fell drain metamagic

>Starting below level 10.

unless the enemy has evasion

Okay so I can
>Be big dumb brute who deals LOTTO DAEMG
vs
>Be big dumb cleric who deals LOTTO DAEMG an casts LOTTO SPELLS
vs
>Be big dumb hippy who deals LOTTO DAEMG and casts LOTTO SPELLS and has a BIG ANGRY ANIMAL
vs
>Sissy girly faggy wizzy who says "DM, DM, may I may I? Pretty pweeeety pwease?"

Gee, I guess being a skirt wearing sissy is OP!

You don't need to make an attack roll for Fireball. It's an area of effect.

Barbarian gets 2 attacks of 1d12+10 all day long, wizard gets 2 fireballs per day for 6d6 with save

The barb does get 6 or 7 attempts to hit though, usually with advantage (depending on build).
We've opened up a whole new can of worms here, just damage was complicated enough.

Wizards get metamagic these days?

Hey. If you're going to whine about something; you should know what you're talking about.

As often as enemies being immune to slashing, bludgeoning and piercing damage (which fucks the barbarian up), so I'm safe assuming it won't happen significantly.

So, assuming level 20 game, against relatively common opponents. By that level, virtually everyone has some form of resistance to fire. AC scales horribly, so the Barbarian is likely to be hitting even on a number of his iteratives against targets that aren't either monsters with assloads of it or characters with silly levels of AC optimization. And if it's a monster with tons of AC, odds are it has spell resistance as well, at that level.

>6-7 attacks
>metamagic these days
Choose an edition and stay with it, is pretty hard to counterarguee when you bounce from one to another and mix several to make a point

In 5e a barb can't make more than 4 attacks at 20th level (assuming you have haste)
In 5e only sorcerer has metamagics, but not in the same way as 3.5
In 3.5 a barbarian has that many attacks sure, (6-7) but the wizard has metamagics that will make the barb blush

Bullshit

>Wizard says please
Hardly, dumbass.

The reason wizard is good is because he has to do the least "mother may I". The fighter has to do the most. "Can I have decent gear? Is this skill roll high enough?"

The wizard is good because he has rules that state *what happens* in explicit terms.

That is it, but OP's leaving out that the fire the wizard's shooting at you is boosted by casting it at a higher level, which uses up a higher-level spell slot than the 1st or 3rd level one it usually would, and that secondly it's a barbarian hitting with a normal axe once instead of twice like it'd be able to once it hits level 5, and that he's not even raging, which is the major feature of the class. Another thing is that the barbarian's real strength is in resistance and being able to take a hit, represented by it having the d12 hit die, Unarmored Defense increasing his AC partially with CON, and the various traits he'd pick up along the way. OP is also disregarding how wizards don't get many class features in order to balance out how many different spells they're able to cast, and how no DM would have a lv20 party where the Barbarian doesn't have magic anything.

OP is whining about 3.5. (where a lv 20 fireball does 20d6)
Whining Badly.

Edition?

If 5e I'm more mad about
>swinging a small piece of metal deals 1d6+5
>trowing a 3 ton boulder deals 1d4+5

My warlock in 3.5 dealt 24d6 (per attacks, he had two) at 15th level, and that's not even hardly impressive.

>wizard with int 14 casts fireball, investing 3 turns and considerable fatigue to prepare a deadly attack
>fighter at str 14 fights brutal close combat where every strike is a terrible wound

Feels good to play GURPS, where incredible Strength actually means incredible strength.

>H-hawdly d-dum-dum!!!
t. cuckwizard


You have NO arguments, CoD>Pissy wizzy who only exists in "I-i-f-if!" C can become a BETTER fighter while also being a wizard, D can become TWO better fighters while *ALSO* being a fucking wizard.

But nobody talks about this because nobody on Veeky Forums has an IQ above 90 except those of us who do and understand wizards are dogshit when CoD and many other classes are much, much better.

I would agree with you but I highly doubt any DM would actually have a 3 ton boulder deal that damage. I'd argue that the initial improvised weapon damages are just for baseline attack values. Really any DM that doesn't actually stop to think about something strictly refers to the book isn't thinking things through entirely and is limiting the motivation his players have to be creative and use the scenery.

>being this new to any form of RPG ever

Are you real, or are you an astral construct, presumably summoned 30 seconds ago by a wizard who actually knew things?

I forgot to add.
>Cleric becomes a better fighter at level 5
Nice "E-ebin 6" meme you have there.

3.5 stops working after level 10ish.

Cleric is almost as good at magic as wizard, but it's missing some of the better spells.
Druid spell list is notably crappier than the other two.

Either way, point is spells > skills and basic attacks.

Played in 2 different AL and in both my goliath was stuck with 1d4+Str if he threw anything, even 2 ton boulders.

11 is when 3.5 gets fun.

You just have to ditch the crappy classes.

>AL
Found your problem.

Fantasy HERO is the best edition of D&D.

Hey, you can't get more official than that. Also /5eg/ also thinks, on average, the same: 1d4+Str for anything improvised

If you're a wizard past a certain point you literally have more than 500 options available to you and all of them are mostly stand alone effects that require no prior investment. Some of these options deal damage but others let you simply circumvent problems or create entirely new solutions. You also barely need to roll for anything since most of your powers force others to save against them. And if you ARE rolling for something 9 times outta 10 you're gonna be rolling intelligence which hey guess what you're a fucking wizard you're pumping that shit already. Oh and also because everything's powered explicitly by your LEVEL? Every time you level up ALL of your powers get stronger.

Comparatively if you're a barbarian guess the fuck what.

You're charging and you're full attacking. That's it. You'll rage in there for a buff obviously but other than that those are your options. Attempting anything else is either going to be horribly ineffective RAW or it's gonna rely on GM fiat. You're gonna be rolling a lot more since all your actions, even your utility ones, rely on you rolling. In addition you're gonna need Strength for attacking, Dexterity for Defense and Constitution for HP. And that's not even going into what certain skills might need. And as for other options?

You'll have 5 to pick from as you level up. But guess what? Because they're permanent chances are you're just gonna want the ones that make your charging, raging and full attacking better because that's already the smartest thing you can do. You don't have the flexibility to abandon one strategy and try another if something comes up that complicates it. And you better fucking stick to whatever your primary strategy is because if you decide later on you wanna alter things it's once again GM fiat or you're bust. And even if your GM lets you retrain feats, you only got 5 and AGAIN you're only going to be aiming to improve your charging, full attacking and maybe raging.

5e is written for "rulings over rules".

AL is about rules over rulings.

Oh and did I mention? Those 5 options you get as a barbarian? They DO require prior investment in something and to get something as basic as not making a certain combat maneuver utter shit you need to invest in intelligence which is otherwise useless to you and helps you in no way whatsoever.

Yep. Melee a shit.

>this is what never played 3.5 sissy wizzy fanboys ACTUALLY believe
Here is how it works
>We're playing ebin 6!
I'm playing cleric, rest of the party that isn't druids please go away, you're shitters. DIVINE METAMAGIC AND FULL PLATE/RETARD MONSTER AC AND GOOD WEAPONRY NATURAL SPELL AND ALL OF OUR SPELL LISTS EACH DAY!!
>We're not playing ebin6
DIVINE METAMAGIC AND NATURAL SPELL AND GOOD HP AND BUFFS, AND CONTROL AND HEALING (lol) AND FULL RETARD AC AND ALL OF OUR SPELL LISTS EACH DAY!
vs
>D-dis guide and l-le Veeky Forums said it gud!!! IT GUD!!
>what u mean you no encounter for spell I has?
>Me useless?
>NO ME NO USELESS. ME NO DUM-DUM!

But yes, tell me again how your magical wizard where he gets ALWAYS the best spell for EVERY encounter and has near no fucking lasting power measures up with two guys that can get new spells each day (irrelevant of books) and not only that, but they're better martials.

Oh but a well optamized ranged build could surely power through most things. And with it being ranged it has an extra layer of versatility in that I can snipe enemies or circumvent gaps and stuff right?

Well unfortunately there's a 3rd level spell that just makes you immune to ranged attacks. YEP. Not resistance or anything just straight up immunity!

Not going to deny the power of CoDzilla, but again with the "best spell for every encounter"? is there a best spell for every situation? yes, are you going to prepare those? No, fuck no. You prepare the second best or third best which coincidentally happens to be also second best or third best for a wide variety of situations, making 10 spells worth 40 situations, instead 10 for 10. That's how you prepare with a wizard, that's how anyone who wants to play a wizard should prepare.

Can you end every encounter ever? absolutely if you're Batman, but your mission is make others life a cakewalk, that's how you spare spell slots, not outright ending the encounter, just making it a non issue.

Just lol if you don't allow your barbarian/fighter throw a nearby bench/table/log at the enemy dealing 1d10+ STR damage with Fort save for knockdown to adjacent targets.

Or I can play a cleric or druid, do the same and also be able to out-fight 99% of all melee classes. At pretty much any level post 5 and before 5 I'm also not useless, filled with utility and fighting power even when out of fucking spells (unlike wizards whom don't shine until later on unless you do 1 encounter a day).

Oh wow, yes wizard is so OP! Specially when it's only OP in theoretical scenarios where it all goes as he wants and his spells are perfect.

In any real game there is no reason (from a minmax perspective) to play anything but CoDzilla since gods/nature in D&D by raw literally give -1 fucks sans DM fiat.

>Wizards suck
Sure buddy. I don't need the perfect spell every time. I have lots of options.
>Divine metamagic and 3.5e druid.
Seriously? Why the fuck would I play 3.5? It's just shittier Pathfinder.
And in Pathfinder, cleric and druid are roughly on par with wizard. They have slightly crappier spell lists though, but are obviously better in combat, though not generally as good at combat as they were in 3.5.

>It's just shittier Pathfinder.
Actually, PF is slightly shittier 3.5. In 3.5 you at least have ToB to play martials, in PF you don't.

Core full casters are all perfectly viable.

The party isn't going to suffer in a party of cleric cleric druid wizard.

And lets not forget what PF did to martial maneuvers like trip/grapple/etc or how did he fuck monks by denying them all the feats that had before (improved natural strike p.e.)

>He doesn't play with Dreamscarred Press material.
Path of War 1&2 is way better than Book of Nine Swords.

Ultimate Psionics is better than the 3.5e psionics books

Who the fuck plays at 20th level?

Dreamscarred Press material is better than Paizo/WotC material

Nobody ever.

Agreed, combat maneuvers are crappier in pf, and there are a few martial feats missing, but it's not like they were *good* in 3.5.

And I'd rather Pathfinder with a couple pages of imported 3.5feats than play 3.5.

Have you tried playing literally any other tabletop game, including other D20 system games and other editions of D&D?

>Level 18 Ranger/Tempest Minotaur dual wields two large-sized warhammers and deals around 700 damage on a full attack

It's almost like you don't want to play make believe fantasy games, user.

Probably. This is just a poorly constructed meme thread, afterall.

>Large+ creatures break the damage curve when handed weapons.
No shit.

A tripmonk or tripfighter in 3.5 was good, and you could play that and not be overly BTFO by casters

In PF isn't even viable to imagine being a tripfighter

If you cannot beat average 70 damage at 20th level, the problem lies in your DNA. If you canot beat average 70 damage with every damn attack, you're still sort of shit at DnD and need to get better.

I built one at one point. Worked okay until level 8 or so.

Cavalier. Houndmaster. Leadership (worg).

Took the teamwork feats that worked with it, and used a trip weapon polearm.

I'd trip them and my hounds all got free attacks. Each of their attacks had a chance to trip.

>Puny barbarian thinking he can compete on the battlefield of supergods.

Fuck off back to whatever low fantasy system you play. Shit like barbarians and fighters was not and it not and should never be competitive in high-level DnD.

I did a monk once with that in mind, but after 7th level I realized I wasted like 5 feats, I couldn't beat the CMD in a reliable way after that. Maybe if I had access to more material (was 1pp only game and not even every book was allowed, only PHB, Ultimates, Advanced guides and 1 or 2 campaign guides)

Dirty Trick is amazing if your DM isn't a drooling retard

You still need to beat the CMD and that's the main problem.

To be fair, wizards can do some truly heinous shit in that game because of how wide open magic is as an array and they're REALLY powerful on the fly thanks to power stunts. Boost Immunity(Physical) with Total Fade in your array is pretty horrible to deal with as a barbarian, and entirely possible for PL 10 Wizards to have as the primary power on their array(it costs 60 PP).

But at least martials have access to a huge variety of effects even without dipping into actual superpowers so they're not limited to punch man, and unlike in 3.5 they might be able to do something about it without begging the DM.

>Making improvised weapons better than actual weapons

>not making your improvised weapons better than actual weapons

Not

Humanoid opponents naturally have a lot less HP than monsters do so it's still easier to just kill them in a round than to inflict a status effect that may or may not stop them.