You guys need your own thread. That said, no need, as when new splats and books start to roll out, there will be more even representation.
Dylan King
>Romance In my current game a dude's backstory involved him losing his girlfriend when he proposed, she ran off and he had no reason why. I decided another mage had seen her and thought their relationship was a blight on her potential. So he dragged her feeling for the other guy out of her Oneiros, and chained them to himself.
Now she's devoting herself to her work, and possibly going to Awaken shortly.
And the guy wants to join the Clavicularius, so he can learn how to excise these unhelpful feelings from his mind. Or just summon them and beat them up.
Jack Edwards
Glamour seems like a natural product of emotions and Sekhem is like the raw substance of like history and life of something or some shit like that.
Parker Ortiz
>Glamour seems like a natural product of emotions Then why can only the alien Fae, and those they've fucked up touch it?
Andrew Powell
You could ask the same thing about essence or plasm.
Isaac Wilson
Thanks user, I really appreciate it.
I'm not gonna lie to you: I'm drunk... again. I diablerized some random methuselah (who cares anymore?).
And you know what's the worst? I'm thinking about Zillah. Even when I'm drunk as fuck, I think about her.
>Don't do it, man. You have so much to live for.
I don't know, man. I've lived for too long, and seen too much.
My woman is gone, my family is long dead (I even killed one of them). And let's not forget that I invented murder itself.
I just want to diablerize more idiots.... get drunk again and again. I might be a hero before Gehenna.
Wyatt Gomez
>Speaks out of ass >Doesnt bring up how no one gives a flying fresh fuck about Beast and Geist
Nathan Parker
Is 20th the go to buy for Mage the Ascension?
Powers remain unnerfed and the casting rules aren't Patriot Act tier?
Austin Phillips
Was something lost in NWoD mage by pairing up the spheres? I feel like you're going to favor one arcana over the other. Why try to lump these specific schools with another?
Pic related, qt Thyrsus find a death mage
Jason King
I have heard nothing but negative comments about M20. Popular opinion says go with revised.
Aaron Wright
What did popular opinion say about Revised's revisions? Are the casting rules more straight forward?
Josiah Nguyen
Better to lace Revised with a select few tidbits of M20.
Ayden Diaz
Maybe. People are mostly just highly vocal about how shitty M20 is, and how revised was good.
I say this having never played any of them.
Logan Ward
Go with revised and if you can score a free copy of M20, lace it with tidbits of that, particularly the focus rules (Paradigm/style/instruments) and other things that you find useful.
Christian Ward
Gonna buy 1 book anons. This isn't a college book which is a duplicate of the previous edition with one new paragraph that I'm after.
Christopher Sanders
Why is M20 so disliked? Let me guess, it in some way reigns in Mages powerwise? After all, it's going to be a shared setting going forwards, and there is only so much magewank they can allow.
Zachary Russell
>it in some way reigns in Mages powerwise?
lolno
It actually gives us far more leeway when discarding instruments.
Josiah Bell
I was always a fan of the 360' alternative path creation, from the Chroniclers guide I think.
Dual paths have the benefit of being thematically focused with in-setting connections
Evan Smith
To help people get a grasp on the symbolic nature of the Magic in the setting, and provide some internal consistency to what would otherwise be an absolute clusterfuck of mystic preferences.
It gives people a concept to adhere, deviate, or attempt to reject, while still orientating themselves with regards to it.
Also you're not always going to favor one over the other. 2 of the most avid players in my current group are mostly just increasing their two Ruling Arcana, and seeking to focus on them equally. The others? I have no clue what they're doing.
Zachary Jones
I just started the chronicle with 25 Mage Paths: one Subtle, one Gross and one Inferior. The first mage already had the Awakening in the Realm of Mind and Time, where he had to kill his own alternate evil self two times in three different parallel timelines to prevent his own death. Shit was neat.
Joshua Nelson
I do enjoy a good alternate self battle. I indulged all the players in the during a campaign of Eclipse Phase, but each players method of resolution was designed to test their character Killed other self - Conquered yourself Co-existed - Became at peace with yourself Merged - Became one with yourself
Leo Foster
It wasn't battle as much as exploration of self. He looked into his own alternate life, and, by finding the point of divergence, understood how much the Mind is plaything of Time. Killing was just rejecting that other him. It was supposed to be lesson about illusion of self. It didn't went as good as I wanted it to be, but player liked it and said it was good beginning of a story.
Jose Myers
sounds like a perfectly fine awakening
Chase Thomas
>Who wouldn't blood bond their waifu? Slavish devotion is damn sexy
It wasn't real, user. Also please remember that vampires don't have sex. We just... were.
That's when the crippling depression began. She was perfect, my children were perfect, Enoch was perfect... But the murder of Abel still haunted me.
Being in a blood bonded relationship won't take away the fact that God punished me. Me and my family literally knew God. Can you understand that? Knowing God! And knowing that he cursed you... Even the possibility of Golconda was not enough.
Anyway: no, blood bond is not cool. For my kind it is just pretense. Self-delusion.
Also she's fucking dead. Whatever. I need another drink.
Adam Young
Buy revised.
Download M20 from the mega.
Anthony Davis
>Why is M20 so disliked? Here, have a sample.
Evan Peterson
Caine just kill yourself bro. Go find a nice mage and get them to end it for you.
Michael Nguyen
Cain! My brother! All has been forgiven by our wondrous lord god he has forgiven you and so have i!
Not really he is still dead you still did it and life still sucks love you bb
Eli Hughes
Father's Thrusting Cock
Gavin White
But what if God really do have a plan? What if it's not that easy?
I already tried to be an hero twice. One time I asked a mage to use all of his mighty (5+, I don't know) Spheres to blow me out of existence.
Unfortunately the spell backfired and he just disappeared in a big aetheric fireball.
Next time I tried to kill myself and the curse literally nullified the effects. I think it just made the mark more powerful.
So: any ideas? Would this >I remove your curse using Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4, Prime 6 >I also take away your Vampirism, no more Disciplines for you, friend!
or this really work? >Archmages can remove God-driven curses/blessings using Prime 6.
What if these spells would simply backfire, just like we tried first time?
GOD DAMN IT, user! It's not funny! Stop it!
Kevin Ramirez
Yes. It takes Prime 6 to remove Vampirism and curses / blessings derives from God. There are other ways, but this is the most absolute.
Landon Perry
But can it nullify the mark itself? I mean God put it there to counter any kind of harm... or magic.
Landon Ramirez
God put it there to ward off damage done to Caine, nothing more than that. Caine isn't supposed to die.
Targeting the curse / blessing is different from targeting Caine.
Elijah Powell
>But can it nullify the mark itself?
Not hard to do with Archmagick.
Gavin Johnson
All level 10 powers of the disciplines, and presumably Caine has level 10 in ALL the disciplines, is basically a cop-out ability called Plot Device. whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Plot_Device
Caine ain't being saved. He's immune to Sphere magic.
Gabriel Evans
10 dot Spheres are also plot-device Archmages are immune to anything Caine can dish out.
9 dot Spheres also have better feats than plot-device 10 dot Disciplines.
Plot device + feats > Plot device + no feats
Eli Rodriguez
I think the game as it is is fine, but the fact that Mages don't get to choose where the bulk of their power lies bothers me. Even in the whole "make up whatever Path/Realm you want" thing, it's not something the character chooses. Also the Paths and Realms players make up tend to be... not good.
So I'm working on a way to play that lets characters choose whatever they want to specialize in. No Paths. All Arcana are common until you pick a Legacy. Greater emphasis on Legacies then, in fluff and crunch.
Pseudo-Ruling Arcana can be chosen by making Arcana tools (replacements for Path tools) that allow you to cast spells of the associated Arcana for no Mana when you use them, unless you Reach. Paradox can degrade and eventually break the tools. You also can't have more than two attuned to your aura at a time.
The logic here is to allow more player AND character freedom, if that makes sense. The character will be largely defined by their Legacy, which they choose.
Brody Cooper
>Caine ain't being saved
Yeah, because once you're targeted by an Archmage, you're fucking finished.
Isaiah Walker
>God put it there to ward off damage done to Caine, nothing more than that. Caine isn't supposed to die. >Targeting the curse / blessing is different from targeting Caine.
Holy shit! You must be right!
Ok, here's the thing: I'm a bit afraid that undoing the curse might upset God. Should I do it or not? Any advice?
Also what if it would fuck up Gehenna itself? I mean I have no idea what would happen anyway. I didn't make up the prophecy (I heard about it by some Nosferatu when I visited Rome after the fall of Carthage).
So let's say I ask an archmage to "turn off" the curse. Would that affect the coming of Gehenna? I don't even care if I live or die, but... you know... God already fucked my life up once - I don't want to make things worse.
Daniel Reyes
The Caine vs Archmage argument always comes down to this.
>Archmage vs Caine >Archmage wins >God is pisssst >God vs Archmage >Outcome undetermined
Unless the actual authors themselves step down, we have no way of knowing who'd win.
Robert Campbell
>Why is M20 so disliked?
Don't forget the culinary demands in M20.
Sebastian Brooks
Do it man.
What have you got to lose?
Is God gonna DOUBLE curse you?
Connor Jenkins
>Would that affect the coming of Gehenna? The Antedeluvians stir whenever one of their children is killed (which is why killing thin-bloods en masse is a terrible idea). I think they might pay even more attention if their daddy dies. You might just kickstart everything.
Why not use your super vampire powers to go explore space, and find other planets and stuff?
Anthony Adams
You guys are making God seem really fucking tsundere.
>"I-It's not like I like Caine or anything, I just don't want that filthy wizard touching him!"
Jayden Anderson
Jesus Christ you idiots have this debate every thread. The mods should start banning the mage v.s. vampire wank-off.
Xavier Green
>Don't make me smite you, b-baka!
Benjamin Lewis
Thank fuck for filters, this faggot RPing as /r9Caine/ is fucking cringeworthy.
Parker Williams
That doesn't hurt nearly so bad as that one side-panel about pronouns in oWoD. Does it get worse, or is that it? Because that i can just shrug and rest assured my group isn't made up of pussy ass bitches.
Mason Bell
>Mana is alien, being Supernal in origin
Wut?
Parker Hughes
Dude, I have nothing against mages. Seriously!
I knew this hot witch once - let's just say she was all over me. She even taught me how to use Disciplines.
Unfortunately I found out she was the first wife of my dad - I mean, can you believe this shit?! Me and my dad slept with the same woman! I might be the first murderer but hey... I still have my dignity.
So yeah, long story short - mages are ok.
>Is God gonna DOUBLE curse you?
You do realize we're talking about the guy who punishes people for sins he already knows about, right?
>I think they might pay even more attention if their daddy dies. You might just kickstart everything.
I fucking hate my grandchildren. I mean what the fuck is their problem?
>Why not use your super vampire powers to go explore space, and find other planets and stuff?
The so-called Umbra is a fucked up place. I already got lost three times there - not that shit again.
I wish someone would like me...
Dominic Roberts
>I knew this hot witch once
A good few players theorize that Lilith is a primordial Mage. Probably an ancient Verbena.
Hunter Hernandez
>/r9Caine/
If you don't like it, don't give it a new meme a true name then! That is amazing.
Dominic Wilson
>Mana is the palpable, measurable bleed of the Supernal into the material.
2e, p.86
Thomas Rogers
>/r9Caine/ That is brilliant.
I know what the next edition of the general should be called.
Jose Torres
So, all this magewanking has got me curious. I've never ahd a Mage player in my games before, and a friend has asked to be a newly awaken one (oWoD). I've given him the okay, as really, I don't mind if he is the powerhouse of the group, nor does anyone else.
How fast will he gain power though? I mean, Archmage is basically impossible to get to in a typical year-long game right? Assuming one session a week for a year, with average experience gain (I'm going to be running it a bit like the Supernatural formula; each big event of the metaplot, starting with Chicago by Night, will be split up with monster of the week events rolled up from the book we are on), roughly where might he end up power-wise?
I'm considering having an Earthbound be his nemesis, as theoretically it could keep up or even overpower him for a long time. Right?
Benjamin Evans
The issue isn't that Mana is supernal in origin, it's that it's allegedly "alien," and thus requires Weaving to channel rather than Ruling as for essence.
Hudson Hall
Becoming an Archmage is a lifetime goal for most mages, and even then a lot of them fail at the last hurdle and are retconned from existence. And even then a lot of mages dont take the risk of becoming one because something is keeping them tied to earth.
Unless he's actively chasing it I dont think you need to worry.
Easton White
>How fast will he gain power though?
This really depends, considering you're using oWoD. Lesser Mages are relatively weak while greater Mages are just simply monstrous. It entirely depends on your Paradigm and Focus, what you use for Instruments/Foci, whatnot.
If you abuse Wonders, Wards and hung/held spells, you will win most white-room encounters if sufficiently prepared beforehand.
Don't use Archmages.
Daniel Hill
Yeah, i figured as much, but just wanted to make sure. I'd still appreciate some anecdotes of how peoples Mage characters managed to progress over relatively long games, from beginner to wherever they ended up. It will give me a sense of where I take the plot.
>I totally don't plan of one of the players gaining a relic weapon, long before any of them can examine it properly, that is actually the requiery of an lesser Earthbound. As the legend of the weapon grows, so does the power of the Earthbound, as it takes in that sweet sweet 'faith'.
Camden Kelly
>A good few players theorize that Lilith is a primordial Mage. Probably an ancient Verbena.
Well, it's entirely possible. She had this thing for blood, that's for sure.
Also I'm sure there was at least another guy before me (after she left Adam, I mean). I don't want to start a gossip, but she mentioned having sex with gods and angels, too. Then, a few hundred years later, I heard some rumors about Lilith being an ex of both God AND Lucifer.
Was Lilith an archmage? Possible. Was she a wench? 100% sure.
Chase Adams
This is retared guys, you're arguing who is the more powerful of two people who literally has whatever power is required at any given time.
Caleb Lee
>abuse >wonders, wards and hung/held spells
I highly suggest you don't allow these things. Granting Mages D&D wizard status will enable them to curbstomp everyone else in combat.
Lincoln Jackson
It's not "allegedly" alien. It is alien. Period.
You can't just say "the issue isn't that Mana is supernal in origin" and then turn around and say that actually is the issue. In the same sentence, no less.
Mana is from the Supernal. The Supernal is not a part of the Fallen world. Ergo, it's alien. Foreign. From across the street. However you want to say it. So it can't be as naturally compared as a native substance like Essence.
I realize I'm essentially houseruling here, but the logic is sound.
Joshua Jackson
How the fuck you can disallow them if Time/Fate 2 allow you do it RAW, and Ward is literally Space spell?
Christian Barnes
They're talking about Ascension.
Adrian Scott
>They're talking about Ascension.
Does CofD have its own Caine, by the way? I'm just curious, that's all.
John Garcia
You don't see the issue? If that shit is even included, the same shit will be infused in the writing, since it's the same mind.
Oliver Stewart
The Supernal Realms isn't some place you can to go. It is not a place. It's the code representation of all things.
Mana is far more than just alien in that sense.
Logan Collins
Yes and he's way better than you. God still loves him for example.
Carter Cooper
No, all the different clans have different origin myths.
I don't like them as much.
Gabriel Cox
The origin of the Kindred in CofD is entirely unknown and always theorized. No Antediluvians are in the setting, and barely any Methuselahs show up at all.
I'm a magefag, but I still miss (and appreciate) the likes of Baba Yaga and Ur-Shulgi.
Lucas Howard
There is no Caine in Requiem.
Parker Ortiz
Yeah, I preferred it when it was a place. It is still place in my games, but only because humans are used to 3D space and can't comprehend the information in any other way.
Logan Bell
Yeah, I know.
But they're still separate from the Fallen world.
Lucas Nelson
Shut up I'm bullying Caine.
Jason Jenkins
>Yes and he's way better than you. God still loves him for example.
I have these mixed feelings right now.
Mason Clark
Oh, sorry.
Continue.
Anthony Cooper
I spin it as the Supernal Realms being the symbolic representations of the code or whatever. Those symbolic representations take the form of places.
Lucas Adams
>they're still separate from the Fallen world
They always were separate, but they're far more connected than anything else.
Kayden Peterson
You can totally go to the supernam in nWoD 1e.
Landon Lee
Don't fall for it Caine.
He's just trying to bully you.
Cameron Jones
That works too. People aren't machines; we can understand code, but we don't see the world in code.
Liam Campbell
Not as connected as the Shadow.
Also they're super separate now, what with the Abyss and the Lie and all that.
The Fallen world being cut off from the Supernal is something that the fluff hammers home.
Gavin Foster
Not in 2e.
Things have changed, user.
>DaveB supremacy
Jose Turner
>Not as connected as the Shadow
Debateable, considering the Supernal has far more influence over the Fallen. The Shadow permeates it more heavily, I can admit that much. Spirits are everywhere, but symbols define everything.
Parker Murphy
Why can't we just ignore 2e and talk about oWoD and 1e?
Joseph Lee
>Shut up I'm bullying Caine.
Literally why? God bullies me enough, I don't need more pain.
>Don't fall for it Caine. >He's just trying to bully you.
Ok, sure.
Here's a question: let's say I want to make Gehenna happen, just for the shits and giggles (why not, right?).
How should things happen? Which Antediluvians should get awakened and or / punished?
The Giovanni one seems to be pretty dangerous - he's collecting souls and it bothers me. The Tremere one is slowly becoming a worm-like... thing. It's nasty. Also he stole the blood, which is an unspeakable crime. Nosferatu is a dick. He must be whacked.
Anyway - my proposition is, basically: let's plan the Gehenna, right here, right now! Who should live, who should die?
Jose Sullivan
I gladly enjoy talking about both, it's just oWoDfags and nWoDfags are constantly at each other's throats.
Hudson Peterson
But there's three fags now, oWoD-fags, nWoD-fags and CofD-fags (I guess, does anyone really like the newer stuff?).
Jonathan Rivera
There'll be four soon with the one world of darkness stuff coming up.
...I'm starting to appreciate shadowrun a lot more.
Eli Parker
The core said imperial mysteries still transfers over. So defacto you can in fact go to the supernal realms.
Noah Nguyen
Lets be honest, after the new interactive stories, it's looking like both sides lost unless something really amazing happens.
CofD got renamed to 'not really World of Darkness', the harshest thing they could do short of scrapping it it, considering it was to be the successor. It's doomed to be the (if only slightly) less popular younger brother.
(One) World of Darkness, however, looks like it's cynical and social-issue focused approach to storytelling will certainly please all that millions of SJWs and snowflakes, with such wonderful character concepts as 'trans pornstar who kill conservatives' and 'tatood spic thug who slaughters cops with no reppercussions'. Masquerade? What fucking Masquerade, you fucking out of date fossil! Get with the times, shitlord.
...excuse me, I think I'll just go play through Bloodlines and then fall asleep weeping into my copy of (Revised) Vampire.
Kayden Taylor
The Shadow is explicitly defined as part of the Fallen world. The Supernal is not. The Supernal is also kept apart from the Fallen world, with the Lie and the Abyss. Forming a connection with the Supernal despite that is literally the whole point of the Watchtowers and modern Awakenings.
Yeah, symbols are important, and traces of the Supernal can be found in the Fallen world, but that's not the same thing as being literally connected to it as a natural part.
Ayden Thomas
Okay, guys, how can one dedicated Spirit/Space master ruin up life of entire consilium from her mountain fortress?
Henry Richardson
Manipulate the Spirits with sympathetic magic.
Daniel Gutierrez
I do depending on the line because I like masquerade and it's plot and find it hard to like requiem but I hate ascension and love awakening. Which is the problem, most people like one or the other.
Evan Moore
I'm not holding out any hope. Some oWoDfags are talking about Dracula like he's the second coming, but honestly nothing I have read about his upcoming work bodes well.