How to optimize a 3.5 lich??

So I've been in a 3.5 campaign for about 4 years now that was originally 4e. When we switched to 3.5 the players learned the fuck out of the system but the DM did not. Consequently I have had to help him to make challenging encounters. He's a great storyteller but as we all know 3.5 is a bit of complicated system. Serious fuck up on my part agreeing to switch to 3.5, because I've played it for 8 years and know the rules well, so i figured "hey it'll be easy to pick up and DM, right?"

So the BBEG is a lich (an illusionist lich) and our party is seven members ranging in level from 6 to 9. The DM is probably going to use the Monster Manual lich because it's simpler.

Problem is our group has a psion who likes combining chameleon power and fly for the equivalent of greater invisibility. I get shut down when I mention the rules for hiding after attacking because everyone thinks it's basically Halo active camo. So he plans to BTFO this lich singlehandedly.

Basically, I am looking for a way to counter that. Pic related is the lich from D&D 3.5 Monster Manual with some minor alterations. I need to make this thing tougher. My parameters:

> nothing too complex to use, DM is not skilled at the game
> spells preferrably, or items
> as much as possible I would love to fit in with the lich being an illusionist. Considering having a mix of contingency and mislead on him to make the party fight a fake version of him for a few rounds, mixed with greater invisibility
> something to counter the FUCKING chameleon power
> also DM has rules magic and psionics are different so dispel magic, etc. doesn't work against it

Help me, Veeky Forums, you're my only hope.

> How do I wizard in 3.5?
You're hopeless

Here's the PDF of what I have so far for the DM to use. Haven't change the spell list yet.

Well I really need to not change much except for the spell list, and maybe give him some items. He's a wizard and a lich (recently ascended but still) so he should have a ton of spells. I just don't want to change too much about him except for spell list and maybe giving him a few items (preferrably something that would let him detect this guy before he gets close enough).

The other big issue is, I am not the one running him. The DM is, and the DM does not know 3.5 well. He lost to a few clever tricks and let one player (the psion) solo-kill two 11th level hobgoblin wizards aboard a huge ship.

Like I said he's a really really good storyteller but he doesn't know the rules and we have a rules-lawyer in our group, except the type who advocates for his twisted interpretation and shuts down all opposition. And everyone backs him up except me who wants an actual fair fight.

So, if this guy decides to rush in and fight the lich alone, it'd be nice if said lich had some good tricks up his sleeve. Preferrably tricks that are idiotproof because the DM, while intelligent, is not fantastic at 3.5

If I was running the lich, he would have contingency dimension door on him and would be scrying the PCs from afar ready for them to show up, then have whole armies of illusory undead and summon wraiths and shit to drain their strength into oblivion before showing up and raping them with disintegrate, flesh to stone, baleful polymorph, et cetera.

But I'm not running him so I have to give a recipe to the DM.

Give him more utility spells, things that don't just save or suck. If fighters try and get in close, flight. If someone tries to get cheeky with ranged weapons, greater invisibility and nail him with a vicious counterattack. If the lich is commanding this army of undead, fill the room with terrible gas cloud spells and seal the doorways with hold portal. Wizards are really powerful because they can control the battlefield better than any other class.

damage < utility and control

Alternatively, if you want super fun times; an 11th level lich should reasonably start with 66,000gp (according to the dmg) which is enough for an Orb of Storms (also the dmg). The orb lets the caster, once per month, to summon a "Storm of Venegance". The storm is a multi-round clusterfuck of damage and effects to hose the party, or in this case the psion. Doesn't matter if you can fly and turn invisible, a huge aoe of pain is gonna end your shenanigans right quick. Also, an eversmoking bottle and helm of telepathy, things get too hairy, just uncork the bottle and detect people's minds to blast them.

Last thing, spells like cloudkill, and kelgore's grave mist (phbII) are nightmare's for the living characters and have NO effect on the undead. This lich is an ancient master of the arcane, he should be well aware of his strengths and weaknesses. Also, programmed illusion and greater invisibility with some clever play (which you said the gm was good at story and fluff so it should be easy) can create some next level panic and confusion for the players.

I'll say the last thing I would want to encounter unprepared as a player would be a huge cloud that deals damage and fatigues me, while my exit is blocked, some undead are nibbling at my ankles, and what appears to be 3 lich illusions are stuffing my face with awful spells.

Not sure if he's gonna have more than 3 or 4 undead at most. I would suggest 2 or 3 mohrgs for an escort, just because they are poewrful combatants and have paralysis but are still pretty easy to kill. The ranger I've built could probably take one down in 4 or 5 rounds by himself.

Basically the psion's current strategy is:

> chameleon for 1 power point (he has like 60)
> le Halo active camo
> fly in and do fireburst centered on himself
> tell DM that monsters would think it's a fireball cast from somewhere else
> maintain concealment because he ends up rolling 20 to 25 on his hide check and the monsters are retards so they never spot him
> also using figurines of wondrous power, levitating above enemies and dropping the summoned creature onto them by activating it while directly above their heads
> huge-ass falling object rules kill shit instantly

He wants to try this crap on the lich. I want to make sure it doesn't happen.

Also the damage output of the party is pretty high, so the lich has got to be able to have decoys and stuff. He's been presented as an illusionist since level 1 so as much as I can rely his strategies on illusion, the better.

Anyway, is there a tier list for spells? I'm curious where:

> disintegrate
> flesh to stone
> cloudkill
> web
> glitterdust
> fear
> deep slumber

stack up.

Thanks for the ideas, though, I am adding the spells to my list and savnig your posts in a txt to read later when I finally hash this out. I'd really love it and use it straight up but the DM is n't good at running mass battles (he insists on keeping accurate hit point totals for orc warrior #4, and having separate initiatives for EACH monster) so IDK.

Aumvor's fragmented phylactery?

He's only level 11 though.

user, just apologize to your DM and say you'd support him in a bid to switch to 5e.

It's too late, though. The campaign has ten sessions left at best. No point in switching to 5e now. Also he would have to relearn the rules a 3rd time. He will probably never DM again after this, for reasons other than teh system switch. His life situation has changed and the energy of a half-dozen teens / young adults has probably worn him down. With a game like 3.5, if you don't know the system better than they do, you're not in charge, they are, because they will constantly use it against you.

The damage is done, time for me to suck it up and fix what I broke and help it limp to a conclusion.

Can a level 11 character even become a lich?

In 3.5, nobody is really "in charge". The rules are quite specific

Why switch to 5e when you can switch to something that's actually good if you're switching in the first place?

Presumably they want to switch to something that can handle D&D fluff out of the box.

Remember: It doesn't matter if the lich dies in combat. He can get back up. He can pull a "just a hologram". He'll revive even if they do kill him, because that's what a lich does.

If you're looking for a system to "run d&d", there's not very many options outside D&D and clones of D&D.

GURPS, HERO, and M&M.

That's about it, all of which would require a fair amount of homebrewing/building before all the things you want in-setting are adequately represented to run a decent campaign, and of course, no adventures, and little in the way of prebuilt d&d fluffed adversaries.

If the lich is hanging out in an underground crypt a lot of flying shenanigans are negated.

If he has illusionary body doubles and disguised bear traps, invisibility can be mitigated.

But they already switched away from 4e for some retarded reason.

Give up on wizard, join cleric master race and have an army of retard stronk undead, and permanent super-spell powered monster mode back breaker lich.

Use greater invisibility, followed up by meteor swarm.

>That is not how hiding works at all
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

>If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
Nothing to hide behind, no hide, no concealment, no hide.
There is a spell for active camo called greater invisibility. It is a level 4 spell allowing a level one power to emulate a level 4 spell is going to break the game over its knee.

True Seeing, Greater Invisibility and Programmed Images out the ass. Energy Resistance is obvious, since the lich will of course be familiar with the PCs' most common tactics. This isn't even a question of knowing the rules well, it's a question of being creative. If you're feeling mean, Lesser Simulacrums of the party.

Also, the Psion's player should be shut down hard, or preferably kicked out of the group. Neither Chameleon nor rules for summoned creatures work like that.

>Optimize a Lich

Well to List:
>Has age category benefits and application of either the Spellstichted Template (Meaning his ascension ritual had assistance) Or the Enhanced Undead Template

For Age Categories, see Van Richten's Guide to Liches and the 3.5 Ravenloft stuff by Sword and Sorcery, it's very important you read this, because in 3.5 it was carried on, but not fully adapted, See the Salient abilities presented in Monsters of Faerun for the 3.5 adapations of SOME of Lich-based Salient abilities.

The types of phylactery available to the players are found in the Libris Mortis, and the actual Lich process as of 3.5 is in the Lich Monster Class which was on a web article, knowing what occured post-Time of troubles to this ritual is important to a DM, 3.5 occured because Vecna stole away into Sigil and fucked the Multiverse into 3.5 this way, and this was an active event that is known throughout the planes to certain degrees and reference, a good chunk of 2e fluff, for this reason, was still viable, if not technically left out for adaption, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft for example was NOT canon, and is a remake of the 1e version of the module, with the current Ravenloft events that are canon being the content from 2e, as stated in a Dragon magazine article.

For Lich items, Van Richten provides your needs, but give the Lich a Blackfire wand, which was always a neat trinket from Dragon magazine. Also, Liches don't have prohibited schools, as VR mentoned, but for balance, let's say he's dipped into that at a later level (15?)

Things you need to read-

Also which is better, flesh to stone or disintegrate?

Reading material:

>Dragon Magazine #026 for the original Lich creation Blueprints, most of the content is now defunct, except for the detail on the creation of the poison required for the transformation which is continuously referenced post 1e, especially in Van Richten's Guide to Lichdom, knowing about this is important, seeing as it's often overlooked.
>Dragon Magazine #162 Accidental Lichdom via unperceived change (One of the more funny official things that occurs in the realms under the influence of Magic deities)
>Dragon Magazine #234 Lich Magical items & the Blackfire Wand
>Dragon Magazine #317 Orcus's fucking TRUE NAME
>Dragon Magazine #329 On where the Lich Respawns in vicinity to it's Phylactery
>Dragon Magazine #334 Ecology of the Dracolich
>Dragon Magazine #339 Redone Suel Lich Template, read the 2e one first as the text has been written to a technical standard opposed to a fluff-like one
>Dragon Magazine #340 The fucking Black Cauldron, statted and everything as they hinted back in 2e's Van Richten's Guide to Liches

>Ravenloft, Creatures of Darkness for the Defiler Lich (has no modern update)
>Van Richten's Guide to Lichdom
>Ravenloft Book of Shadows netbook (Shadow Lichdom)

>Libris Mortis for your Phylacteries available and Lich varaints
>Sandstorm for Dry Liches
>Sword and Sorceries 3.0-3.5 Ravenloft releases for the followup to the content found in 2e's Van Richten's guide to Lichdom (You'll be wanting the adapted age category benefits, and salietn abilities from here, Elemental Lich Template and Modern Vassalich Template.)

And lastly, the Monster Class version of Lichdom which presents the information on How liches are made, barring the unhinging the soul part, which is detailed in Richten's guide/D&D excerpts too far to number on Lich's making the trasformation.

Oh, and Monsters of Faerun for baelnorm, ArchLiches, and adaptions of Salient abilities found In Van Richten's guide.

Mostly everything here.

Fuck, I posted the wrong one.

On the note of how it all actually comes together in the base sense, the process of Lichdom is now centric to the completion of the Phylactery in 3.5, whether the result of Vecna's Sigil reality bending fuckery or natural in-setting progress through magical innovation is initially unknown, but in effect, whilst under the process of becoming one, you're effectively a half-lich, and as noted at 3rd level, you'll see it uses the Older 1e-2e method of rejuvenation (Requires and active body near the Phylactery) before 4th, where that becomes defunct and follows the 3.5 method of simply recreating the Undead body, this process is shown in Neverwinter Nights 1 with Kharlat Jhareg for example. The main "DM discretion" part of the transformation is now just the subject figuring out how to get his/her/it's soul into the Phylactery, which is information found in Van Richten's guide and the 1e Lich Blueprints and whatnot.

>optimized lich
>not a clerical lich
You fucked it up already.

Flesh to stone, because using Stone Shape and other forms of stone crafting let's you create abominations, if you use stone from other flesh to stone subjects, (use grafting rules for more usable limbs)

Did you know reanimating coagulated Vampire dust with Revive undead makes a Vampiric Gibbering Mouther?

Not everyone wants to suck Orcuscock m8.

>figurines of wondrous power
>When the figurine is tossed down and the correct command word spoken, it becomes a living creature of normal size
You can't do that. There are specific rules stating that it has to be put on the ground, or it won't work.
Similarly with summoned creatures, they can't be summoned in thin air, they have to be on a surface that can support it.

Disregard the rules completely.

I've known a guy who told me he is getting OCD when trying to play because he doesn't know every single rule, therefore the game is invalid if he doesn't know a rule about exact AOE or the miniscule detail on how a mob should react when attacked.

Once he cried because he miscalculated the saving throw so players beat the enemy rather easily, and not mediumly difficult.

After that he stopped playing and spent 11 years learning book content.

He hanged himself couple of years ago.

Ohohohoo


Let me tell you.


So you want to make an illusionist gnome.

Preferrably shadowcraft mage meaning he has extended illusions and silent spell on illusions and can give himself a 45% miss chsnce in darkness.

Spells: Sensory deprivation, Shadow Well (maze) mirage arcana, illusory pit

Hwightened silent image because now he can use that to replicate any evocatiob and conjuration summoning and creation spell

Illusory wall and mirage arcana are fun. What do you mean i fell through the floor into a pif of acid?

Oh and give him some goggles of +20 spot. Ez peesy. He could use mirage arcana and create a forest in his lair and hide in it while summoning realish illusory monsters

Put all your points in bluffing

Like I said, I don't want to change the lich from the book. Because I am trying to make it look like it is the same stats, but with an alternate spell list.

And honestly Cleric and Wizard are the same tier for a reason. I'll consider your suggestion though because the blindsight spell I found in Spell Compendium is cleric-only. However the DM did mention this lich was a wizard so I think we are stuck with that, fiction-wise.

Not a gnome but he IS an illusionist. And yes, illusory floors and pits of acid will be nice. i will definitely allude to that as an example in the guide I write for this DM.

Holy fucking shit.

Well, I am of the "it's just a game" school, and also of the "it's just a game" school. As in, I believe, who gives a fuck if we obey X rule? and I try to apply common sense in place of it. In fact sometimes it has benefitted a player to use common sense because the rules would trap him into bullshit. But I also believe that the rules are what elevates our storytelling over freeform wankery (which can be fun in its own right) so I try to use the rules as best as they support "realism" (and by realism, I mean the in-world realism, so in superhero setting realism is throwing cars around, but not getting taken out by a lucky gunshot in most cases).

It was an obsidian steed. He was also using the 4e version and when the DM lokoed up the 3.5 version that only functioned once per week, the player sold it.

Well wouldn't being semi-invisible at least entitle him to the hide check?

I will give him the Chameleon power allowing him to at least TRY to hide in plain sight. Not RAI but it's a clever usage.

But this greater invisibility shit has to stop. How exactly do I shut this down as a player? Because with him, it's RAW .... UNLESS the flavor RAW si better than the mechanical RAW.

So "this spell makes you take on the texture of nearby objects".... "so I'm basically invisible!"

"Then see invisibility would work on it"

"No it says it doesn't work"

"Then it's just a hide bonus"

"But it's basically like invisibility then."

Also the whole psionics can't be countered by magic which is the stupidest shit ever and basically makes psionics tier 0 because it can auto-penetrate spell resistance which is the biggest bullshit ever.

Dont forget greater mirror image and major image to trick the players to blow their load on a fake. Could also give him a scroll of project image to make a real doppleganger he can cast from

If he does not have concealment, no also, liches have life sense, which gives it blind sense out to 60ft. So he can't hide anyways.

Where does it say they have life sense.

What about mislead?

Sorry life sight
>Senses darkvision 60 ft., life sight*