So something really awkward happened in last night's game and I'm having a hard time whether or not it's my fault

So something really awkward happened in last night's game and I'm having a hard time whether or not it's my fault.

I'm a level 17 Wizard and I'm in a party with a bunch of fighters, rogues, and barbarians that are really getting into the worldbuilding aspect of downtime. DM says a band of orcs is going to raid one of the cities the rest of my party wants for their territory expansion, but they can't be bothered to go and confront them so they send me to do it.

I don't know shit about fighting against 1000 orcs so DM lets me roll knowledge to get a hint on how to beat them. My knowledge roll told me that orcs value strength and find weakness repulsive, so I got the idea that I'd just try to make the warchief look like a wuss and then mission accomplished somehow (sounds stupid in retrospect).

I go in front of the orcs and demand to challenge the warchief for supremacy. DM responds with the warchief trying to intimidate me with all 1000 orcs each adding +2 to his roll. The other party members spend 10 minutes trying to convince the DM that fear from intimidate is blocked by Mind Blank, while I'm silently pondering if this is even worth anything if the DM is gonna pull shit like that.

Warchief accepts my challenge, and the DM says "the first to fall to the ground is the loser." Then activates an item that gives him an Antimagic Field. I respond by casting Invoke Magic and then casting Wrack, which should have made the warchief become blind and fall to the ground helpless. DM doesn't like that, and has the Warchief order his "faithful warriors" to kill me. I respond by flying 40 feet in the air out of their reach.

DM sighs and says "You're being an asshole, dude."

>its a dnd rollplay conflict episode

How about no?

Sounds like you have a shitty DM.

Need more info:

>I respond by casting Invoke Magic and then casting Wrack, which should have made the warchief become blind and fall to the ground helpless.
Explain why this is true if he's in an antinagic field.
I'm not familiar.

>DM doesn't like that
How is this known?

>the Warchief order his "faithful warriors" to kill me.
Dishonorable warchief should be mocked as weak.

>I respond by flying 40 feet in the air out of their reach.
Sensible reaction to dishonorable orcs attcking.

>DM sighs and says "You're being an asshole, dude."
What did he say when you asked him why he thought so or what he meant?

A dragon is not an asshole for flying out of range and using their breath weapon, it is a victor.

You were taking extra time in solo combat while others wanted worldbuilding downtime, but as you told it, I don't see that you had another option other than handwaving failure and shrugging.

Do you really, in your heart of hearts, think that a warrior race would respect you for cheating in single combat?

This shit is why no one likes casters, we just need them for spells.

>its a dismissive "itsa_episode" post
How about no?

Invoke Magic is a swift action level 9 spell that lets a single level 4 or lower spell act like normal in antimagic or dead magic areas.

I'm honestly more offended your DM thought a +2000 DC was a smart idea.

using your offensive capabilities in a fight is cheating? mmk.

And then stack would drop him then, I presume.
Cool.
Yeah, warchief lost legitimately then.
So far, it sounds like the GM was saying, "Come on man, you're supposed to lose here."
Which is dumb and bad so around.

Curious to hear how he defended calling the OP an asshole.

How the fuck is that even supposed to be fair?

I'd get it if he was trying to pull an impressive narrative by showing that the wizard was given that much intimidation just to be able to have it blocked from his mind, but apparently that lead to a 10 minute argument.

Bad GM.

Apparently I was being nonchalant in how I responded to each of the changes in the situation, and the DM found that insulting somehow.

I didn't even bother pointing out that He could have had his orcs pull composite longbows out their ass if the warchief had a fukn antimagic field, or that they could have at least thrown rocks at me or something.

>its a dnd rollplay conflict episode
Better than a Cyberpunk 2020 after-school special.

>Orc activates an Antimagic Field item while fighting a wizard
>OP is the one who's cheating

Very 'subtle' caster balance thread. You have been told multiple times how to fix this issue; stop it.

I still can't get over that +2 for each of the thousand orcs.

>>DM sighs and says "You're being an asshole, dude."
Your DM is literally excrement in human form. A fucking mentioned use of Tasha's Hideous Laughter has it used as a way to humilate people during large social events, mentioning casting it on someone about to give a speech at a funeral for example.

Demeanor, tone of voice and, of course, the actual words said mean a lot. I'm not saying OP was an asshole; but it's certainly a possibility.

As for the DM, it sounds like he did a bad job, at the very least, but trying to set up a scenario with a 17th level wizard around can be... challenging. And his actions, while ill-advised, weren't necessarily the product on an asshole trying to smack his players down, but perhaps that of a beleaguered man trying desperately to hold things together while the wizard pokes holes in the fabric of reality. I don't like to run high-magic games and I certainly wouldn't get near a 17th level D&D campaign.

>orcs pull composite longbows out their ass if the warchief had a fukn antimagic field
This is what they should have done, honestly.
They still probably would fall to level 17 wizard, but yeah.
I'd bet gold on the wizard, might let the bet go at the anti magic field, but the invoke magic sealed it.

>I was being nonchalant in how I responded to each of the changes in the situation, and the DM found that insulting somehow.
I've been there in MTG.
When your opponent casually whips out an answer for every damn thing you do.
It's frustrating and the attitude is salt in the wound, but it's only insulting if you have a fragile ego.
The point being, of course, that MTG is competitive, whereas an rpg, mostly, is not.

Orcs shoulda bright shamans.

I'm not him, but +2000 to an intimidate check.

I'm incapable of getting over that. I'm lying in bed thinking about it and it hurts.

>Demeanor, tone of voice and, of course, the actual words said mean a lot.
I agree, and I can see it from the GM's point of view, but as the GM, I woulda broke down laughing at the wizard casually trumping the anti-magic field.

Threads like these make me appreciate my DM so much more.

I honestly don't know what your DM was expecting you to do. Fistfight the guy?

What was the point of that set-piece anyway? To prove that 1001 orcs will just let a randome stranger fight their chieftain? And then what? Go home if he loses? Kill the PC regardless?

Very poorly thought out.

He could have spun this so many ways.
>The Orc's know what magic is and understand the concept of assassination. They will not let you approach their chief as your use of treacherous sorceries in an duel contradicts the purity of the contest.
>You notice, howevere, a rift in the ranks. Some of the orcs disagree, and permit that a chief that cannot kill a lone mage is no chief at all. It seems some do not fully support their leader, and others openly despise him. Maybe you could leverage this to your advantage?

Or even,
>As you defeat the chief with your powerful magic, there is a moment of confusion. Many Orcish warriors have never seen a mage battle up close before, and have up until now seen spells as mere tricks to confound your enemies. The chief is true to his word and retreats the next morning.
>Weeks later thereare strange rumours of kidnapped spellcasters and raided libraries. Whispers of strange noises in the mountains, black fog on the roads, of rivers catching fire in the night.
>After a few months, the orcs return. Changed.

People need to learn to roll with this stuff. Make a note that your plothook didn't go as planned, come back to it later.

You seem a decent fellow.

>A faction that dislikes magics, and even has the capabilities to make an Anti-Magic field, which likely means they've murdered numerous mages before, maybe even sometimes in the exact way OP's character tried to pull off a kill
>"But they have a group that doesn't believe what the rest think!"
>Or even worse
>"They don't actually know what magic is!"

Both are fucking stupid and it's OP's fault for getting himself into that situation. If anything, he should have destroyed the anti-magic item with a quick spell, obliterated the Warchief fast as possible, and escaped before the rest could pounce on him.

Both OP and OP's DM are in the wrong here, but OP was more stupid.

are ya feelin intimidated now mr wizard

>he should have destroyed the anti-magic item with a quick spell, obliterated the Warchief fast as possible, and escaped before the rest could pounce on him
Explain why this is preferable to what the wizard did again?

Agreed, you pointed out some holes in user's suggestions, but the idea was to roll with the outcome, not bitch at your player for using their abilities.
It's a solid approach.

The GM was demonstratively stupid.
What did OP do that was stupid?
Agree to help party members?
Try to end the battle using intel and with as little killing as possible?

Your whole post seems odd.
It's almost as if you're just being insulting to start an argument or something.

This is a DM. He knows you don't try to force players into a static scenario, you change the scenario to the players actions

>Hey Grohk, look what I picked up!
>Is that a magic rock? You better throw that away before the others find out. You know magic's a big nono.
>Ahh, but that's where you're wrong. Look, it's an ANTI MAGIC rock. This is gonna show thise dumb wizards that we can deal with their magic, eh?
>Oh right. Cool. It's just...hmm.
>What?
>No, nevermind, I'm just being silly. I'm sure it's fine.
>Come on mate, just say it.
>Well, it's just... it looks a bit magicy.
>What? No, it's the opposite. It gets rid of magic.
>Yeah, but... how does it work?
>I dunno, it just sort of does.
>See, that seems like the kind of thing people say about magic. "It just sort of works".
>Look, i'm not a bloody genius, you just chant the words and it-
>Bloody hell Garr, now there's a chant? This is all sounding a bit too magic for me mate.
>It's....it just...look the thing about it is-
> I mean it's not getting rid of the magix with chemistry is it? It's not physics. It's magic isn't it?
>Maybe? I don't know. Still, it's gonna help us show up the pointy hat pricks, so it's fine, surely?
>I just feel like if we use a magic anti magic rock to beat magic users, that it'll sort of make us...magic users.
>Oh...yeah.
>You see?
>Oh no definitely...Maybe just put it back?
>Probably for the best.

>Do you really, in your heart of hearts, think that a warrior race would respect you for cheating in single combat?
Pretty much, while OP isn't being an asshole and is just playing to his outs as a caster it is blatantly obvious the orcs don't respect magic in single combat. That's why he has an anti-magic amulet.

>I'm going to try and trick this Orc into fighting me so I can get one over on him
>Oh shit, Anti-Magic, guess I should try and use what magic I can to win
>Uh oh, they're calling me out on my shit, better escape instantly, that won't have repercussions.

OP should have at least tried a non-magical solution when the duel started, as it was quite plain that the use of Magic would fuck over the rules of the duel anyway. All that was needed was to have the Warchief fall to the ground, which, unless OP is an enfeebled old man, should be possible without magic.

What would be proper intimidation bonus be on this scenario?

>OP should have at least tried a non-magical solution when the duel started, as it was quite plain that the use of Magic would fuck over the rules of the duel anyway. All that was needed was to have the Warchief fall to the ground, which, unless OP is an enfeebled old man, should be possible without magic.
So you *are* literally expecting a wizard to fistfight a mighty orc warchief?
Yeah, you're an odd one.

The repercussions of flying out of melee range is that you can rain firey death upon the orcs who were too bold to call "No magic", clearly planning on their wizard-killer rock to handle business.

>it was quite plain that the use of Magic would fuck over the rules of the duel anyway
>rules of the duel
No, they didn't.
The wizard did not dishonor the duel, the warchief did.
You dishonor yourself by posting nonsense.

Sorry for the slow reply, on a phone with no wifi.
I agree that there are holes with the plot ideas I came up with on the fly, my point was why a duel in the first place?

If it's a must that a duel should take place, there should still be opportunities to roleplay other solutions to the problem.

Why did he have to go alone? Why not being a force of men? Why play fair? This is an Orc warband, not a political meet n greet.

The DM should be able to permit in-character actions that alter the events in progress. If not, what's the point of character agency?

And why have a pop at your player for thinking on his feet?

It just feels a tad like the DM had a big set-piece planned, but didn't think it through and got butmad when it didn't pay off.

These things happen. Either provide more options for interaction so that your players don't feel railroaded down one avenue or take the hits as they come and roll with the punches.

>Apparently I was being nonchalant in how I responded

That's how prepared wizards are supposed to be. They're preptime the class

>why a duel in the first place
Not that user but the duel was the player's dumb idea that the GM tried to use a +2000 intimidation to get out of.
But otherwise, you're spot on.

>Quit acting like Batman, you nonchalant asshole!
>Fear my rambunctious orcs!

This is why I don't fucking like Wizards.

>Oh, I can just use magic to win this fight!
>What do you mean I can't use magic? That's bullshit!
>What do you mean people don't like magic? That's bullshit!
>I'm just gonna go someplace where I can use magic, ha!
>What do you mean I can't kill this entire army by myself with magic? That's bullshit!

Wide range of use with magic was a mistake.

>This is why I don't fucking like Wizards...
Neat!
What does that all have to do with OP's situation though?

It relates because he's a Wizard and I don't like him.

The DM basically offered a rigged intimidate check to get the wizard to back down from what was almost certainly a plot hook, the wizard magicked around it so the DM offered a test the wizard could take part in but gracefully fail, the wizard magicked around that so the DM had the orcs go nuts, probably to continue the plot hook and the wizard magicked around that.

I mean if something is obviously a plot hook you kind of just let it go rather than derail it, it's nice when a DM can do dynamic plots but if they're struggling and throwing you an obvious Call to Adventure you just take it and cut the DM some slack. I've had tonnes of this in games where we've had to hacker the mainframe and as a sysadmin I know we can just go mug an employee and take their mobile phone or whatever to get what we need, or just impersonate a secure data disposal company and wait for the servers to cycle through to disposal or whatever, but the Dm wants us to Mission Impossible our way into the base so that's what we do.

Ah.
Well, that answers that then.

well, OP had to stop the orcs, by either diplomacy or by beating them into submission. he choose one of two possible ways to handle the situation, and the GM wasnt ready and tried to force the player to back out; by my account thats the GMs fuckup.

Not that user, and I see your point in general, but I can't imagine what this plot hook was.
Let the orcs win for no reason?
Fight the orcs head on with no plan, which could have been done by them refusing the duel?
I can't see it.

Dodging the plot hook is a shitty thing to do as a player.
Making your player's play "Guess the right plot hook" is a shitty thing to do as a GM.

You talk like a Wizard.

You're a fucking Wizard, aren't you?

>Not that user, and I see your point in general, but I can't imagine what this plot hook was.

I suspect it was that, considering we're talking about expanding territory with whole cities, OPs group has been rolling the entire game world up unopposed for a while and this was supposed to be their first encounter with a deadly serious opposing force that could fight on their level and would probably have led to a war to hold on to their gains.

This isn't the way I'd handle this for what it's worth, if OPs party had turned a party scale dungeon crawl into a continental curbstomp I'd go higher up than orcs to divert them, but it sounds like the GM was trying to provide them with an opposition that would actually challenge them but hadn't counted on a level 17 wizard being basically a swiss army knife.

Incidentally this is why GMs should have copies of character sheets on record.

>well, OP had to stop the orcs, by either diplomacy or by beating them into submission
I suspect the GM was going for the third option; retreat in the face of overwhelming strength, a swearing of vengeance, marshalling force and fighting back all climaxing in a fight between the warlord and the party which would break the orcs.

As I said above though, I suspect the GM simply had no idea what a level 17 wizard could do against even the biggest muggles. At level 17 with magic users you really need other magic users, be it wizards, dragons, really nasty liches or even up to divine and demonic gods.

>You're a fucking Wizard, aren't you?
What do you think?

>>I don't wanna kill this entire army by myself with magic, maybe I can just embarrass their leader?
>>Oh, I can just use magic to win this fight!
>>What do you mean I can't use magic? Sure I can, see?
>>What does it matter if some people don't like magic?
>>I'm gonna use magic, because I do that, as a magic user.

If you're a level 17 Wizard, why are you personally showing up to deal with a bunch ofor Orcs?

Yours is a good plot hook.
>I suspect the GM was going for the third option; retreat in the face of overwhelming strength
And this is why I didn't consider it.
Planning on your PC's giving up without trying and then getting increasingly frustrated when they keep trying to find solutions to the problem you presented them with, instead of quitting immediately and ruining away is just really, really, amazingly dumb.
That's bullshit.
But I believe it.

>Incidentally this is why GMs should have copies of character sheets on record.
Pic related

>level 17 wizard
>I don't know shit about fighting against 1000 orcs

How the fuck did you get to level 17 with that attitude?

Meteor Swarm alone is going to solve 99% of that problem. FROM A MILE AWAY.

>keep trying to find solutions to the problem you presented them with, instead of quitting immediately
but the PC found a solution and not a bad one for that. GM is forcing him back, and cally the OOC player an asshole for seeing things through IC is just not nice

When I have a huge plot point/dungeon planned for my players and they find a way around it I consider it my fault for not having enough foresight. IMO players should not be at fault, or expected to back down, just so the GM doesn't have to change anything.

When I find myself at a loss because my players just pulled off something I didn't think was likely (or possible), here's what I do
>Hey guys, I expected [outcome] and I had [content] planned but [other outcome] happened and I'm caught off guard. Gimmie a moment to prep a replacement.
If your players seem interested by [content] ("oh man that'd have been cool, can we do the stealth mission actually?") ask them if they think it'd make for a better or more fun session, and if they agree go for it.

you, you sound like a great GM. anyone ever bitch about weeabo stuff in your games?

What level were these Orcs?

Was there any reason you didn't just competent obliterate then before they even knew you existed?

Sounds like magic was forbidden per the duel agreement.

Sounds like the orcs don't care about honour.

Why didn't the orcs just shoot you down?

Even for a level 17 wizard, attacking 1000 targets in a reasonable time frame is difficult.
The only spell that would have a fighting chance is Apocalypse From The Sky, and that shit costs a minor artifact, has a 24 hour casting time, AND hurts like a bitch.
Only takes a greater metamagic rod of maximize to make it deal a hilarious amount of damage in a truly tremendous radius though. (Use Divine Metamagic to cast it with Widen Spell to make it big enough to encompass several countries)
But I digress, as that spell is tremendously difficult to learn, costly, and requires the user to be unfathomably evil, OP would certainly not satisfy.

You can only sling so many Widened Fireballs so fast, and I doubt such a stickler GM would allow for infinite Gate loops.

I agree actually, I don't think the DM handled it at all well but I think I can see what they were going for. In that circumstance I personally would let myself be railroaded because I recognise it as a plot hook, even if it's an artless one, but in a more open game the DM should just roll with it. What the DM should have done is let the wizard win, have the orcs retreat in embarrassment, then run another unrelated campaign arc or two and try the whole thing again with a better opposing army, maybe an alliance of evil raised by the vengeful orc warlord making pacts with devils in order to regain his reputation.

It always amazes me how many of the DMs I've played with don't ever look at what a character can do, while players can surprise you (and it's a GOOD thing for everyone involved if they can) you should know roughly what your player characters can do and what's in their inventory. I've had DMs that haven't realised we've had holy water and similar, or that Shadow Step was a bonus action.

Lets assume OP's DM is a chill guy.
Lets also assume OP is a huge ass hole

So when OP casted fly he was saying shit like "How you gonna get me now you fucking asshole!?"

To which the DM replied "Dude stop, you're being an asshole." because OP certainly didn't do anything wrong in game. More like lack of planning (or understanding) a wizard.

Now as a DM I don't know why his first reaction to a flying creatures isn't to pull out the 500+ bows and arrows (or at least throwing spears) that orcs clearly have.

Wait...
>I'm a level 17 Wizard
>fighting against 1000 orcs
>I respond by flying 40 feet in the air out of their reach.
You literally could have obliterated the army without ANY of that bullshit. And there is literally nothing the DM could have done without resorting to bullshit.


This is why people don't like mages