/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

and if you look at the next sentence >but the man in charge was Matt

Dave Also wrote some of the different splat reactions to Beast in their mist. Most of his were "dude this guy is a fucked up creep, stay away" The point being, and we agree on this, that the writers can only do so much to influence a collaborative project, and citing one writer the full blame is disingenuous.

Beast problems are well documented. Sanctifying Beasts for complicity towards the harm they cause, while Demonizing Heros for doing less for better reason. And that goes down to the narrative voice being so unironically overwhelming pro Beast.

Their are some interesting ideas in Beast, but the overall execution is well, being nice about it, disappointing. I blame the ill fated rewrites and the muddying of themes, not enough money or time to do a full overhaul. The writers had been paid and that would have broken the budget. It was a no win situation. They should have gone full evil instead of braking half way inbetween. instead of this very messed up abuser apologetic spin

projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/kurieg/beast-the-primordial/
Kurieg has so far completed his review of the material it just hasn't been back logged yet. It's a pretty good read, very concise work on a large product

So then how do I do it? Or is it an exclusive to the mage's club?

Aren't the Giovanni big time necromancers?

>Shambling hordes with path of bones doesn't get any better as you increase along that path

There's a Combination Discipline that lets you make them tougher.

>Sharing the Master’s Vigor
>Dominate •••••, Necromancy •••
>This power costs 24 experience points to learn.

>Those who walk the Bone Path of Necromancy can summon grotesque zombie hordes to perform their will. For those few who have learned the secret of this power, those deathless guardians may be imbued with extra speed, strength, or toughness.

>SYSTEM: The player spends one blood point and rolls Wits + Occult. Each success allows him to imbue one zombie summoned through the Necromancy power Shambling Hordes (V20, p. 165) with a dot of a physical Discipline (Celerity, Fortitude, or Potence) that the necromancer possesses. For example, he may choose to spend two successes on the same zombie by giving him 1 Celerity and 1 Fortitude or 2 Celerity. However, the necromancer cannot share a Discipline rating higher than his own. For example, if Beniamino has Potence 2, but achieves three successes on his activation roll, he cannot give a zombie Potence 3. The zombie retains these abilities as long as it is animated.

How useful is Necromancy? It seems like I basically have to take the Sepulchre path, and the books don't actually have much info on how useful a ghost is. How easily can a ghost I summon kill me, and how can I use ghosts other than as spies? I'd like to be capable of being dangerous as a vampire, not JUST a ghost spy master, and definitely not as "that asshole who got turned to ash by Caspar the Not-So-Friendly-Ghost", since the flavor text implies ghosts basically hate you for being a necromancer.

that's a two combo discipline that requires three. And why does it require Dom5 when Dom has nothing to do with physical power? Do I Command their nonmuscles to work more efficiently? That's just terrible design.

>And why does it require Dom5 when Dom has nothing to do with physical power?

Probably because it is actually a pretty awesome power, so it makes sense for it to have high requirements.

And Domination fits the theme: you might not like it, but the idea and theme of a VtM necromancer is about *control* over others and yourself, in a nutshell.

But yeah, with just some time, corpses and a bit of blood, you can essentially create an army of undead where each corpse can move with supernatural speed, can soak hits from fire and supernatural claws/fangs in addition to the usual stuff, or punch through brick walls.

Heck, there aren't even any penalties for failing or even botching the roll. With all that in mind, I would personally have made it Dominate 5 and Necromancy 5, and would have included at least a drawback if the played botched the roll, like the corpse immediately turning to dust or getting bonuses but then immediately attacking you.

As it is, with enough blood, you could just spam the power until you get the wanted results, night by night.

Plus, it's tailor-made for Giovanni characters (they start with Necromancy, Dominate and Potence), so stop sulking.

>the flavor text implies ghosts basically hate you for being a necromancer.

Well, you *are* a perversion of the natural order as a vampire... and then you pervert it even further by communing with both the dead and the living.

But, most ghosts won't be hostile towards you out-of-hand... on the other hand, the higher levels of the Necromancy powers deal less with "summon ghosts" and more with "great, now you already know how to summon ghosts, so here's how to force them to do your bidding, mwahahaha".

With just two points in the Sepulchre path you can summon and talk to ghosts just fine, and enter into partnerships, ask for favours, etcetera.

Not all ghosts *want* anything to do with the vampire, though. At least not if the vampire doesn't have anything useful to offer back to the ghost in question.

>how can I use ghosts other than as spies?

Send them to harass your enemies: while ghosts usually can't affect the material world in the long run, there are things they *can* do; hurling plates at a vampire's head when he thinks he's in complete safety at his haven, turn his oven to full during the day, and make the vampire and his haven burn... or just have the ghost whisper or scream in your opponents' ears and otherwise distract them, maybe even during important social events so that your enemies may end up embarassing themselves or other important vampires.

Some paths also deal with sucking soul energy from ghosts as a secondary "blood" source that you can use in lieu of blood for stuff like disciplines and whatnot.

How well do Geists and Vampires interact in 2e?

Was reading Dark Ages Companion when I came across this nice little Gem.

"Nat Turner’s sense of divine purpose did not end when he became the Beast Incarnate, willfully feeding on the Confederacy and Southern losses through Reconstruction and beyond."

That sounds like a Hero to me, not a Beast. Fucking Beast is shit always.

Book and page numbers plz, I need this.
Also how much of a detriment would it be to have Clan Giovanni as an enemy? I imagine it would be harder to study necromancy.
And is it generally allowed for modern vampires to take stuff from dark ages? Just wanted to ask, because I planned to play a fairly old 9th gen thats been in torpor with her husband(A friend who plans to play a tremere.)

They have nothing in common besides being loosely "undead". I imagine they don't really cross paths.

Okay, question here for the peoples

First off, whats everyone's favorite path of Blood Sorcery in oW? Necro/Thaum/Koldunic/whatever

Second, what is/are the most common paths to be taught to people who are not of the clan they are associated with? Whats most common to be taught among Anarchs?

>muh necro
that's bullshit justification for BAD design. Control OF dead is already a apart of necromancy. Dom has nothing to do with physical might or imparting it. How does CONTROLpeople + CONTROLdead = Super Zombies?

Not to mention it's a worthless rite unless you have another discipline. Just admit it's only written like that so only low gen giovanni would want/have it. If anything it should have been a Straight Necromancy rite.

>Book and page numbers plz, I need this.

V20 Lore of the Clans, p. 107.

>Also how much of a detriment would it be to have Clan Giovanni as an enemy?

Depends on where your characters are currently located. If you're in deep Sabbat territory, it probably won't be much of an issue (due to the Harbingers of Skulls and possibly the Kiasyd).

If you're near Italy and such in Europe, it's going to be a HUGE detriment.

If you're in the New World/America, it'd depend on whether there was a Giovanni compound nearby, or if the local mob had connections to the Giovanni.

>And is it generally allowed for modern vampires to take stuff from dark ages?

Sometimes (depends on the individual storyteller), though such characters rarely form groups with nenonates/fledglings (which are what most player-created characters start out as).

I'd advise against it really, unless you were all going to play a group of characters who hail from the Dark Ages.

Also, the Giovanni and the Tremere would NOT have had much reason to be around each other in the Dark Ages. Not saying it couldn't happen, but you'd need a better reason to justify it to either group of Elders than "we're married" or "it's true love".

>I imagine it would be harder to study necromancy.

For a long time, Giovanni (and the Cappadocians before them) were largely the only group of vampires who practiced Necromancy, and they enjoyed a monopoly on such activities.

While the art of necromancy is more widespread now, the Giovanni still aren't fond of anyone besides themselves who end up using Necromancy.

So, y'know, do what any sane vampire would do, and don't let anyone find out about your "I see dead people"-skills.

Another little bit:

"With this increased notice, hunters became a problem in a way that they hadn’t been since before the American Revolutionary War. Among these hunters was a lawyer from Springfield, regarded by some of the Kindred as their greatest threat in the New World. He had a surprising resistance to the effects of domination, and even an attempt to drive him to suicide through depression proved useless.
248
a fearful lesson
Especially in the South, further from the tight control of the Elders in New York City and closer to the future capital of unlife in the United States, New Orleans, the rise of this man to first the Republican nomination and ultimately to the presidency served as a shock"

Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter. I could expect this in OWoD, but not here. Fuck Beast.

I appreciated how that chapter basically pointed out Beasts fought for and against literally every side since their only defining feature is bitter anger in that period.

I think it would have been a better Demon chapter though to be honest with the war having fucked everything up for the GM.

>If anything it should have been a Straight Necromancy rite.

That's even worse design, because that'd make it horribly broken, user.

>How does CONTROLpeople + CONTROLdead = Super Zombies?

"SHARING the MASTER'S VIGOR".

It's pretty self-explanatory.

Level five dominate is possession. The wording in the title and description and the level of discipline needed seems to imply that a portion of the caster's mind possesses the corpse(s), and through that connection, can link the inherent values of the physical disciplines to enhance the corpses' own powers.

How much influence would the Giovanni have in Las vegas? That's the only info we have from the storyteller so far.

>pretty good

At least in fiction they do have a lot of influence in Las Vegas. Mostly through a minor family, IIRC.

Bullshit If a vampire Possesses the Mailman he can't use the vampire's Potence Dots. A vampire can have Absolute control someone, but you can't control something that isn't there. You're reaching.

given that that's a mob town, probably a lot

>Bullshit If a vampire Possesses the Mailman he can't use the vampire's Potence Dots. A vampire can have Absolute control someone, but you can't control something that isn't there. You're reaching.
Yeah that's what the Necromancy helps with. Good ol' blood magic.

To be fair, this was hinted in Hunter.

anybody here has a link to the Requiem 2nd Edition book? thanks in advance.

It's in the pastebin.

Its in the pastebin at the top, there's a mega with everything.

How useful are Bone Path zombies? They seem useless save as guardians, and they're not even really good for that- too weak and the instructions you can give them are limited and unchangeable.

Not to mention the whole "walking masquerade breach" thing.

Don't use them, you can get a fucking ghoul anytime. Undead-raising vampires are stupid fucking chumps; the entire concept of vampires in general is that they are, and create, much better undead than anything like that.

Speaking of VtM things, I'm not sure what the thematic difference between Mortis Path and Thanatosis is. They sound like different mechanics to express the same fluff.

They are not without use. Just nowhere near as versatile as mortal thrall or ghoul. But the whole doesn't need food or air thing speaks in their favor, so does willingness to take straight up suicidal commands.

I've found some neat home brew necromancy Paths, what does tg think of them?

docs.google.com/document/d/1MfCNRn1r2WCaYicaRHdd27oXLnVDbbpR2B0y59Jobmc/mobilebasic

dyingstylishly.blogspot.com/2016/05/salt-path-necromancy.html?m=1

dyingstylishly.blogspot.com/2016/04/clay-path-necromancy.html?m=1

Most notable is clay path, which makes bone-path a lot better- you can basically get perfectly loyal ghouls since if you get them early they can pass for alive at a glance.

So, what happens when a changling drink vampire blood? Can you have a changling ghoul?

Blood bond, no ghouldom though.
Also unless it's consensual, I can't see the Freehold being very happy about that.
Time to sharpen the stakes, and call upon Contracts with Fire.

It could be by mistake. All these fucking hidden societies walking around pretending to be normies when outdoors, there are bound to be mishaps.

>tfw you're a 1000 year old elder vampire and grab a mortal for a snack, only to find out he's a teen mage who awakened 2 years ago and curbstomps you

...And you think a 2 year old mage could curbstomp a Gen 3-5 Vampire...why, exactly?

Friendly reminder to ignore mageposters

Youthful energy

Probably because of mage wank. A newly awakened mage can kill Tzimisce with a half hours work according to some.

Meanwhile according to retards on the other spectrum, Archmasters can't hurt fledglings because the curse of Caine will make god destroy them.

The entire board slowly fills with curdled, rotten jizz, so much wanking goes on in these generals.

Has anyone here played a vampire Nevromamcer? How did you use it? And what did you like the most?

fuckoff mage fag no one cares about your small penis slipping out of Phil's asshole

I don't play mage. I play vampire.

Hey, I did specify
>can be

Fair enough. Right synergy can triumph over just beating face. Sometimes.

A newly awakened Mage can't do more than tell there is something there and the thing about it, and extremely minor tricks like lighting a match in Ascension

Unless you mean one who put BP into Arete, but that isn't a new mage that is a mage that has been around a while. All mages start at Arete 1. There isn't any bypassing that

Another alternative to necromancy is to make horrible abominations using Viscitude.

Mages in Ascension are all over the place in terms of power. A relatively weak mage is going to die to a relatively weak vampire.
It's the complete opposite when stronger individuals get involved. A mage mastering the Spheres at five dots Is capable of bringing down Methuselahs.

Memories of Mortality being banned gimps them a fair bit but it's still a decent deck archetype imo. / Liquidation combo is ++good

Disciplines, Gifts and Spheres are just not close to being balanced according to daddy Brucato.

>image
Here, have a taste of Phil.

But what if they had been? I guess what I want to know is, why do they NEED to be balanced so poorly? There's a big loss in cool setting crossover potential because of it.

Koldunic Sorcery is fucking busted and I love it.

Anyway, anarch blood magic is a complete mishmash. Rites of the Blood has a good chapter covering it.

Does the J-Man still write for WW?
Clanbook Giovanni was 100% 90s edge, I loved it

Thanatosis is written as an update of Mortis. The implication is supposed to be a connection between the Samedi and the Cappadocians, but it's up to the ST if they actually have anything to do with each other

Equality is disgusting. It wouldn't make sense for everything to be balanced. Why should vampires and werewolves be the equals of wizards and demons?

You can whine about it all you want, but it just doesn't make sense.

Justin Achilli's still doing some shit for Onyx Path, yeah. Prince's Gambit is his thing.

I'd really like to see that. Mages aren't fucking super-geniuses. A Methusalah is what...Gen2?

So let's say your Mage has five dots in relevant Spheres. He's still a human o his physical scores are

Dots over 5 in your basic attributes (and Disciplines in general) really can't do much when you get nuked and or you decide to reflect the raw power of the sun with much weaker magic.

Methuselahs are Gens 4 and 5 usually.

Not everything is based around combat, user. You can still have crossovers with splats more powerful than your own. Mages are the perfect wild cards; such as the mysterious mystic that the Prince will personally pay a visit to in desperate need of last-resort assistance.

I'd like to see the Mage get close enough for it to be relevant. Methusalahs are OLD. And invested with much more experience and cunning than a Mage who's been at it for a few years.

If you have a ST who lets your bullshit powerwank 17 year old Mage get even within the same BUILDING as a methusalah, you have a shit ST.

Why would you need to get close? You literally don't even need to cast spells to direct a missile. That tech is all consensus based, even if the nuke itself isn't.

Honestly the only balance should be XP costs. A power that shoots lazers that deal Damage according to firearm rules should cost less than a Mage Sphere

>Prince's Gambit is his thing

It really depends on the Methuselah in question. Mages are not idiots, and a great many of them -are- brilliant individuals bordering on the superhuman themselves.

It only took five dots in Forces & Spirit to kill an Antediluvians, even lower if you count the condensed sunlight; which was used on one of the founders of Fortitude.

Masters are more than capable of killing them.

Ok, you are definitely among the 'biased vampfags' crowd. Every single time someone like you comes along the magefags proceed to shit out citations for their supremacy. You don't win these kinds of arguments.

>And invested with much more experience and cunning than a Mage who's been at it for a few years.

Not necessarily. Too broad of a statement to make.

Ironic how nostalgia over their mortal days gets the Vampire buttfucked by a bunch of shambling carcasses.

magefags can't calculate their way out of sucking Phil's dick and coughing on Phil scat

Prolly shouldn't open with that, but okay. Anyway , the problem isn't that the powerleevels are different, it's that it made it hard to thinking older stronger vampires as big deals, when there's things without that much buildup who could easily destroy them. Alsos people like comparing mages to vampires and usher in the fictional advantages

Reminder that it only takes Prime 6 to delete Disciplines via deleting Vampirism.

>""only""
>Prime 6
You can't use Only for that, fuck you

Hay, someone probably died of paradox to launch that nuke. A noble sacrifice to take out a dirty gypsy blooding reality deviant. Truly he is the real hero of Mage.

>Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4, Prime 6

It only takes Mind 4 to defeat Caine by giving him the needed therapy to work out all his problems so he'll be at peace

Yeah, but a Mage who's been at it for 2 years (the basis of this whole discussion) is not, by any means going to curbstomp a Methusalah.

Porthos, the Iconic Force '6' Mage, was over 500 fuckin years old. That's a fucking ETERNITY of study.

Methusalahs are usually over a thousand years old.

If you honestly think some street punk with a few dots in spheres could crush a Methusalah, you're fucking high.

Caine's stat block literally just says "You lose" in all categories.

Magefags he's ready for you. Stripe and bend over for Phil

Reminder: this discussion didn't start at Methuselah, that was a badly moved goalpost some vampfag did.

>You Lose meme
This meme is so old and dumb and literally not even cannon. Why do people always bring up a fan sheet?

His joke stat block

I mean Curse of Caine already says you can't do shit to him.

You hit the dude with a bat, and God Himself fucking murders you.

There's a lot of weird/stupid combos you can pull off in VtES to bufu your opponents, some of which are bizarrely still legal for tournament play though

their don is a rival to the prince itself, so likely dangerous

That kind of reinforces that Caine was probably right, God's a fucking douchebag in WoD.

The 9 lives merit from literally every game easily gets around that. 7 fold isn't even enough to beat chargen powers, much less archmasters.

>Seven-fold curse
Easily bypassed or flat out removed using the above Prime 6 Rote.

The Prime 6 Rote works by removing God-driven curses and blessings. The Curse of Caine only works on Caine, not the curse itself. This has been brought up so much, it hurts.

>totally non-cannon fan made sheet with multiple different edits varying by year.

The curse rebounds harm. You could defeat him without harming him. Like a good session of therapy.

GET TO PRIME 6, FUCKBOY.

Literally the only Canon mage to ever go above 5 dots got there in HALF A MILLENIUM.