How would a non-anthropomorphic avian race work? Could they grow farms? Would they need infrastructure...

>They have reached a dead end in evolution, and are starting to fail.
The fuck you on bout retard? Evolution isn't fucking goal based, it's just organisms sculpted by mutations and causality into the form best fit for their current environment.

I came up with the idea that birds alone cannot do some things that humans can do, but would be working together instead. For example you wouldn't have a smithman and his apprentice, but an entire flock of smithbirds making tiny swords for their tiny claws so they can smite tiny things.

There's a series of novels about Owls that are literally just the size and shape of owls, but with intelligence. "Guardians of Gahoul" or something like that.
They have some infrastructure, mostly to support metalworking to build claw weapons and armor.

I could see other kinds of crafting, but metal requires some strength to beat it into shapes, they just don't have the body shape to swing anything with a nice arcing momentum.

I sea a lot of weaving. Maybe I'm unimaginative but you see birds creating structures out of twigs and strands in real life so I think that's a good path to take their development.

I'd say birds would never fabricate swords to begin with

swords require complex motions to be effective which can only be executed by a creature with manual dexterity and strength comparable to humans

if we assume for a moment the intelligent birds would be some form of social corvid (most likely birds at this point to evolve sufficient intellectual capabilities to engage in cultural evolution) weapons that would benefit them most would be some form of metal spores attached to their claws, beaks and possibly wingtips. In addition to this modified spears could work if they used their full velocity and bodyweight to provide the energy rather than trying to rely on their limbs.
Another useful tool for aerial combat could be hooks on ropes and nets intended to entangle the opponent and prevent flight.

Ranged weaponry delivered through any means other than dropping would largely be ineffective due to the inherent 3 dimensional range of motion, higher velocity and again lack of equivalent of manual dexterity. Humans are naturally great at throwing objects, corvids not so much. Until the invention of gunpowder I could see corvid warfare remain largely up close or fought by domesticated proxies (lack of ranged weaponry would make usage of domesticated beasts of war vastly more effective, even if proper mounting would likely be inefficient during combat unless the corvids actively managed to domesticate large birds of prey, which while awesome in concept, is unlikely)

>best fit
I think you mean
>good enough

Idk

Look up the Mokole and Corax from Werewolf: the Apocalypse. The former because they had a prehistoric dinosaur-based society, the latter because they're birds.

biggest issue would be mining them as metals that can be forged entirely through casting, such as bronze, would be readily available to them

I could see small scale mining operations happen after sufficient advances in mechanics allow them to utilize environmental energy such as water and wind

metal tools would be much rarer to them than they would be to humans but not unavailable

>it's just organisms sculpted by mutations and causality into the form best fit for their current environment.

Slight correcttion.

It's just organisms sculpted by mutations into forms that manage to not die until after they've successfully reproduced.

Because there are tons or organisms that only manage to survive under very speific circumstances for only a few days/weeks and have almost no real defenses, but dammit if they can't manage to fuck/multiply enough before they finally die.

Can't we just have them stop after discovering fire? I mean, there's enough they can do with that.
>Clay nest balls in a climate way too cold for birds normally.
>A hole to fly through and a hole for smoke to escape from
>Inside is a little smoldering cinder ball of twigs, lighting up the brightly painted icones all over the interior wall
>A small family of crows is sitting on horizontal edges, warming themselves against the fire as they drift off into sleep
>the patriarch tells stories of long ago, of the time his father's father was still a hatchling
>the next morning they must fly to the ancient oak
>the elders have called a meeting, all able-bodied ravens must attend, a war is starting
>it will be spring by the time they see this particular nest again
>suddenly, they are startled by the crowing of one of their own
>their night guard comes flying in, screeching panicky and nigh unintelligable warnings
>it's the enemy, they have found their nest
>the tree is burning
>quickly the clan flees the abode
>only to run into their enemy mid-air, not so keen on letting them get away
>an aerial clash occurs, to the untrained the battlefield can never be overseen
>in all dimensions birds soar and flutter, chasing, dodging but mostly grappling and picking
>the enemy came more prepared, sharpened pebbles are affixed to their beaks, for dealing damage, coloured lint is attached to their feet, for seeing each other's path and co-ordinating
>it's going to be a long night

pretty cool

>is unlikely
Why?

Early agriculture would be interesting as well, corvids are omnivores with a wide food palette after all.

And it would be interesting to think of what animals corvids could actually domesticate.
Dogs would be unlikely due to wolves being significantly larger than even ravens as well as predators.
Similarly attempting to domesticate cattle would prove to much even for cooperating birds. However, as corvids are capable of digesting milk products domestication of smaller goats and sheep for both usage as beast of burden as well as food supply and in the case of sheep for their wool (they would be adept at weaving and with a lack of sturdier tools this would be even more important to them than it is to us).

Another animal where size difference can be overcome is the chicken. While they would naturally be more dangerous to a corvid than a human, corvids would have a notable advantage over humans in that they are better fliers than the chickens and could engage in 3 dimensional herding where the chickens would roost with the corvid families in their tree homes as protection against predators. Corvids again are fully capable of digesting eggs and have been observed doing so on numerous occasions.

As for protection as well as pest control, there are numerous examples of corvids taking a caregiver role towards cats, which again would be able to easily join them in their treehomes and thus successfully act as guard animals as well.

Another animal that would greatly help the corvids would be the silk worm. Like said before weaving and various fabrics would be even more integral to the corvid society than a human one and again these could easily complement their treeborne lifestyle.

Like you said clay treenests would be excellent defenses against most predators which could actually reach them, perhaps with addition of woven nets high up in the trees to protect from aerial predators and spears ringing the trunks of the trees.

domestication of an animal which is not overly social and can predate on your species is difficult

even humans require the usage of force to restrain hunting birds for them to remain effective.

That said trained birds of prey would provide a massive advantage in warfare to any corvid society controlling them similar to human war elephants so perhaps once the corvid societies reach a kingdom/empire phase of their cultural evolution one could see a few pop up. It would certainly make for a terrifying weapon.

Maybe they'd collect dung and dead animals for a compost heap in order to get maggots, which then can be roasted in the cinder pile. Then again, I think they can eat dung and rotting meat directly.
We definitely shouldn't be looking for human used animals, all too big. I'm not seeing a familiar animal like humans with dogs on the top of my mind. Humans and dogs/wolves complement each other in the hunt. What equivalent could ravens have for their own challenges in life? (they're not hunters but scavengers)

Right now I'm seeing them as having a far lesser impact on their environment than humans. Just some birds whose rituals and nests are a bit more complex. No domestication or agriculture.

It's possible they could have a symbiotic relationship with another species. Something that could cover the tool usage. Not sure what exactly.

Well we're not necessarily talking about ravens, in fact crows or magpies would be more likely given their social nature
and I definitely could see some form of agriculture happening even if perhaps it would take different forms if they would prefer remaining in forested areas
could be a bigger focus on fruits, berries, fungi etc.

one thing I could see would be, as opposed to humans, corvid societies actively expanding woodlands in order to generate more nesting opportunities

and yeh several human domesticated animals would be way to big but I'd say the ones I mentioned would be reasonable, even sheep which would certainly be massive compared to corvids but they would in turn also need far lesser of them to suit their needs

Well, ravens do actually follow wolf-packs around, as well as the few, stray "lone wolves." The wolves don't fight off the ravens from the kills because it's not worth it, and the ravens tend to point out injured or weak animals with noises, as well as forcing the wolves to continue travel by generally harassing them while they're trying to stop and rest a while.

would be an interesting dynamic with in this case the more intelligent species acting as the scouts

though it would make it difficult for them to establish themselves as the alpha which humans did manage

Corvids are very social. They're also the most intelligent by a very large margin.
If any bird were to evolve higher intelligence, it'd be a corvid.

fully agreeing with you on that which is why I am basing my arguments for a bird society on them and not say Emu's (despite their surprising military successes)
just saying that just because ravens are the largest corvids, doesn't mean they'd be the ones to develop a society.

Well, a sentient species of avians would be able to more or less manipulate wolves rather easily, wouldn't they? After a while it might be less "We rule you, hunt for us" and more "we find it, you kill it, we all eat." Symbiotic relationship.

It's just a mistake to think a small, light bird could insert itself into the life of a cat and have it suit its needs. Think about how little sustenance a bird requires, and how much a mammal, a cat would be such a relatively massive drain on resources for so little benefit.
Dogs are even bigger, chickens must be cooped up, requiring a permanent base or otherwise some really efficient herding implements.
I can see a symbiosis like describes, but the birds are adapting themselves to the behaviour of the wolves, not the other way around.
Some more likely animals to be domesticated/farmed:
>insects
>worms
>smaller corvids
>larger but dumber corvids
>tree lizards

and with access to tool usage more human like strategies could be developed where the avians set up traps in advance (helped by them being able to fly) then utilize the wolves to drive the prey into the traps and subsequently finish off the prey

I assume they would just be giant talking birds doing otherwise normal bird things.

But what is the bird tax policy

Nomadic tribes
Build temporary homes out of mud and sticks on cliff faces
Follow large herds along their seasonal migration

Don't grow farms
Don't have any real infrastructure
Craft stone tools by percussion knapping

This seems the most reasonable to me, though I don't see particularly why they couldn't have agriculture. It wouldn't be large crops like corn, probably only berry patches and the like. It they live near the edge of a forest, they could hunt small game inside the woods, and farm in the clearing, while nesting in the trees.

They might forage berries and the like but actual agriculture?
Not likely

I'm not talking large scale shit, more like planting seeds in various spots and hoping they grow

>planting seeds in various spots and hoping they grow
>relying on this for food
This is painfully ignorant
This is not how agriculture works
This is how you starve

>you have one, and ONLY one avenue for food
triglioli spargonani

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I like the idea that different bird cultures would go different ways. One culture tending to sheep that help plow the field staying in one place while another group follows a larger animal migration being nomadic. The cultures when they cross paths would trade and get materials they might otherwise not have access to.

I have been thinking about this myself, OP. Using a corvid-descended race in my Numenera game.

One thing I'm thinking about is that their main articulator is their tongue and beak rather than hands, which they don't, like, have. Bird language would likely be generated in the throat's syrinx anyways; they wouldn't need a tongue for pronunciation the way we do. The timescale for Numenera is long enough that the tongue could evolve to a structure specialized for manipulation.

I'm treating them as roughly eagle sized, small enough to fly but big enough to support the necessary brain sized. While they might be able to farm, I've been treating them as more prone to nomadic or pastoral cultures. Remember that farming's a recent development for humanity; for most of the hundred thousand years we've been around, we were pure hunter gatherers.

Well, note that using the beak for tool use seems to be an island crow thing, due to the lack of predators; they can afford to have their heads to the ground. We're in the process of obliterating most of the world's predatory megafauna, so that might be a more widespread type of environment in the future.

I agree about swords. I suspect you see a lot of javelin drops at speed against ground targets and metalclad clawing against fellow aerial creatures.

I should add that I've added implications that they were one of the past major civilizations, so obviously they were agricultural at some point, but I haven't introduced any agricultural avian societies in the present setting.

How far are you trying to go with this idea?

Are they supposed to be intellectually around humans level?

If so, yeah sure they can have something like worm farms.

In terms of infrastructure, I see most of it being built like nests, but this idea gets taken to the next level where it's not just little remnants like twigs but also maybe leftovers of the best tech they can find from other civilizations around them (ex. a couple birds bring in some kind of broken Dwarven steam engine or some shit, but a couple other birds found some other stuff that helps make it sorta work again.) They would in a weird way be very punk/DIY technologically I guess.

In terms of politics, depending of kind of bird, but mostly probably some kind of pack mentality, egalitarian kind of society. Possibly even some level of anarcho-communism.

Physically if they are to be around humanoid size, they would have to have far more strength than an average human as that adjust for how much power they need to be able to fly. But their CON stat equivalent would still be lower because even though hollow bones are stronger than solid bone, most of that internal system structure still has to be relatively light for the sake of peak flying ability. This thing about their bones/body also means that what they can wear is quite limited as well compared to standard humanoid.

>if you're cruel, you'll soon remember why a group of crows is called a murder.

Would making entire tree-like abodes be too far fetched?

Cool thread

here’s some of my thoughts

Crows in my experience favor somewhat "disturbed" areas, not pure woodlands (if we are talking about regular old crows here) but open ones.

A big thing is that birds lung system is more sensitive to pollution than humans (there's a reason canaries were used in coal mines as opposed to a mammal of the same size) so take that into consideration when thinking in terms of birds+industry, etc. I'd imagine they would be more environmental but because of those physical constraints combined with smaller size mainly. A lot of human ancestors favor forested regions yet humans destroy plenty of forest. Who is to say corvid evolution would be much different?

That aside, I definitely see agriculture part of the lifestyles of sapient corvids and see no reason for it not to exist. Of course some groups would probably be nomadic (traveling with their domestic animal herds, e.g. the sheep idea) but some would be more permanent residents.
Crows in my experience maintain a territory and return to certain natural or not natural resources. They even show up to empty birdfeeders, indicating they're recognizing the structure/spot and not just visible food. And if there's food inside they lift them and toss them to the ground.It’s not hard to imagine a sapient version would plant crops deliberately for this effect.

sa

Animals I see them domesticating:

- Harris Hawks these would be their equivalent of a dog and would be selectively bred the most intensively for obedience (Harris Hawks are notable in that they can form groups and hunt co-operatively, the only raptor I know to do that)
- Dwarf or Banded mongoose (“guard dog”/to protect eggs in warm latitudes)
- Quails (equivalent of a chicken)
- Doves/Pigeons
- Goats/Sheep
- Wolves (limited to taiga societies mainly where there are no year-round insects, used to hunt large game, traditional)
- Various small rodents (would eventually become equivalent of lap dogs, small enough to carry away when flying)
- Rabbits
- Otters (fishing aid, probably capable of domestication since ferrets were)
- Other birds of prey would be specialty/would be birds imprinted similar to human falconry rather than true domestication (e.g. get bird to think of you as a mate)
- Something would be like cats and domesticate itself but I’m not sure what
- Insects would be huge and intentionally farmed in climates that support them

Another interesting thing to consider is cultural exchange in a creature that can fly (if they are still a volant species) I imagine there would be no "Old World" vs "New World" issues. I imagine cultures would vary more by latitude than by various types of natural borders (smaller oceans, mountains) due to ability to fly leveling that playing field.

Trade and racketeering.

The problem here is that you're not going to get sapient intelligence out of a crow-sized animal. Brain's too small. Crows would have to double in size to get even this far. The larger size makes several things more possible, though. Goats still seem the prime candidate for burden, but now wolves and even the large cats are slightly less of a problem for them (also, really? Predators? Dude, birds can fly away. What's a wolf going to do about that? The crows will need their noses). I really like the idea of "scaling down" the civilization such that it's goats and not horses or cows we're dealing with here. Cows become something of the "elephant" of the crow world.

Is there anything to suggest the size is the issue?
There's humans with primordial dwarfism that are 20-something inches tall (for reference: American Crow is about 18 inches long) and I haven't heard of it being an intellectual disability. It's about the specialized structures rather than size. I do think evolution-wise something like crows would increase somewhat in size with intelligence (mostly because they "could" but also because that mirrors human development which is the only thing I can base things on) but I still don't see size as their problem.

...

I agree they should be larger probably around gnome size. Each Community would probably specialise agriculture for their territory.
It Would probably be difficult for them to craft delicate items or items that take high strength to craft, they would probably need to trade with other sentients.

Being dicks

Read Guardians of Ga'Hoole or something. It's just owls and some blind snakes they use for tending to nests. The owls manage a sort of blacksmithing and shit.

How do they interact with other Sentients are they kind, aloof, cruel indifferent?
What is their greatest enemy?

He has a point. Specifically because evolution is a mostly random process, nature is absolutely full of features that no longer make an organism more "fit" for it's environment but are too engrained to change.

Photosynthesis, for example, evolved on an Earth that had barely any oxygen in the atmosphere so the process didn't need to be tolerant of oxygen. Plants are now stuck with a process that's a terrible fit for the modern high oxygen Earth, but they can't mutate to be better fit without breaking everything first.

This is a pretty good list

For small detail, domesticating smaller less intelligent corvids and training them to work in teams to craft objects could work.

I'd imagine they'd be quite indifferent when left alone due to not sharing territory with humans at least. They could probably coexist fine with elves. Even crows living on mountains should be fine with dwarves since one species lives above the ground, other below.
Humans and more destructive humanoids would be the main issue due to deforestation policies and fighting over grazing land.

> Implying C4 photosynthesis isn't a thing

Crows are dicks, so they'll probably still be dicks

First you need to remember that BIRDS ARE NOT FUCKING IMPORTANT.

Wolf domestication could be a thing, because in the wild they sometimes interact in a mutually beneficial manner: Ravens help the wolves find the animals, and the wolves take it down, they share the kill.

I feel like they might domesticate deer, accidentally once they figure out the domestication thing.

Sit on them, point them towards food, and keep track of them so you can point the wolves at them.

Eventually engage in some selective breeding.

It's a reasonable attempt to work around a fundamental problem. It gets rid of one flaw by introducing others.

>Eventually engage in some selective breeding
How?

Humans can selectively breed animals by physically manipulating them, putting the animals we want to breed together and/or jerking the male off then artificially inseminating the female with the resultant baby batter. How is an animal without hands going to control the breeding of its herd?

well getting rid of the most fundamental of biochemical intracellular processes is pretty difficult considering they evolved over 3.5 billion years and evolutionary processes tend to have bigger issues going back on an adaptation than adapting it in the first place

You do the overused "Set a billion years in the future and old super advanced humans did it"

This is pretty much how agriculture worked in the early days of sedentarisation though.

Uneducated sperg.

That's not how evolution works.

Im gonna say no since you used non-anthropomorphic which, by its very definition would mean that they are literally just birds as they are today. This is because, despite recent evidence that certain species have things at least analogous to language and tools, such things like speech, tools, and what might be considered higher thinking are all human traits and attributing them to animals means that they are anthropomorphic.

Although, having said that, I think you meant giving them things like arms and and shit. I just wanted to be a little pedantic.

So, uh, I kind of like magpies and their love of shiny things. So I think that an adventuring group could use a sentient magpie thief who honestly doesn't do it for the gold but just for shiny things. Leading to some fun times when he tries to exchange his useless metals for food and shelter in town or different, shiny things.

If you want literallybirds, just ally them with a more traditional humanoid species. Any intelligent species can find multiple roles in society, even if it can't provide the infrastructure themselves.

Exactly. Evolution does the best it can, but the lack of intelligent direction leads to dead ends where change becomes impractical.

I guess corvids could evolve something like an elephant trunk. Oh wait, they don't even have noses to lengthen. Birds might as well give up.

I wouldn't be surprised if they domesticated crops. They're great at foraging so it seems it'd make sense they might farm.

...

Yeah, I don't know if they could domesticate grains though

This is how I've been treating it. They live in different enough environments that they're not competing for resources too much, and crows clearly do fine with humans in their environments.

Horneros actually build mudhouses

Except it's not
It began with simply growing the crop wherever they found it naturally
Then people discovered that living and growing was easier near water sources
All of this happened pretty rapidly
But hey good for you spreading false information for the sake of your ego

Jesus Christ, guy

Sup?

j chillin
u

What if the lower class birds are all the birds that get paid by the larger Mammal Races by cleaning them from pests like bugs, In turn they get food or some currency, which helps the clan grow the nest

Those are cool!

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Reading a lot of these suggestions I just keep thinking of native americans.
That sounds so like following the bison without direct hunting.

I can just imagine them purposefully transferring grubs to certain trees to infest and later act as a winter foodstores.

You can also look to real life civilizations in asia and elsewhere that regularly eat insects and the related culture. Even consider silk bugs as dual fabric and food production with a diet that wouldn't be unreasonable to gather.

On the topic of insects and worms and such, I didn't notice if anyone mentioned snails. Some historians believe they may have actually been the first creature that humans began to keep and raise since they were easy to catch and keep in something as simple as a hole with a rock over it and their diet is easily managed even just with scraps and leftovers.

Why not leather?

Consider how human agriculture is thought to have developed from hunter/gatherer culture, humans migrated and in the course of collecting seeds and fruits and camping some seeds were dispersed and left to grow and the connection was eventually made and people began to try to purposefully guide the process.

What about just straight up built on/around trees?

Primates in those huge third-world trash heaps have been observed to steal puppies and raise them as part of the family to later protect the family from other dogs so stuff is far from unimaginable.

>gypsy crow people

If we're using gnomes for a frame of reference and considering a fantasy setting then if a fairy can be tiny and intelligent then why not a crow?

I do actually like them small-size for more options, I'm more just posing the question.

Making a fucking racket and fling shit and just generally ruin the wolf's groove when they don't want them mating?
Try to help arrange pairs they want mating?

I think keeping the crows mostly crow-sized is better. Perhaps a slight bit bigger in some regards, but being small leads to a lot of more interesting ideas, instead of making them halfling-sized or whatever.