Kreia is perhaps the grayest character in Star Wars history...

I prefer the less dramatic, more philosophical interpretation I've read suggested on other threads in the past. Basically, the idea Kreia never intended to destroy the entire Galaxy or transform the Exile into some magic bomb that would destroy the Force in the blink of an eye. Instead, the idea Kreia did achieved what she wanted to do: transform the Exile into a vessel that would continue to spread her beliefs.

This is one of the reasons I love KOTOR2. Its like a classic, each time you read it you learn something new and may even realise you've completely misunderstood it for decades. Kreia, in truth, says so little about her intentions that we're left filling in all the gaps. It just becomes so easy in light of Nihilus to assume she wanted to turn the Exile into some magic doomsday device, even when she never outright stated as such. Kreia despised Nihilus and treated him as naive. Nihilus was the typical "magic bomb" solution to the question of "How do you destroy the Force?" In the course of the game Kreia did a lot to talk the Exile out of seeing Nihilus as powerful, but rather wanted her to see Nihilus as a slave to his own hunger, a failure, in effect.

In contrast, the Exile actually listened and learned. In Kreia's own world, the Exile had become her true heir and come to believe the same as she that the Force needed to be "destroyed". Why is this so? Because the Exile turned away from it. That's what Kreia wanted. If the entire Galaxy turned away from the Force the way the Exile did then Kreia's dream would be realised. By destroying the last of the old Order, the Exile set the stage to found a new Order, one not governed by the Force, but governed by the one who had stepped away from it.

That, in my eyes, was Kreia's goal. And she achieved it.

(1/2)

Now, whether or not the Exile eventually went on to continue Kreia's teachings is another story, as a lot of Kreia's faith in the Exile can be attributed to the fact Kreia was nuts. I think by the end of KOTOR2 the Exile had become the first of the New Jedi, but I don't think she believed what Kreia thought she believed. The Exile had reconnected with the Force, she was no longer hiding from it. However, since Kreia loved her because she had stepped away, I don't think Kreia ever really accepted the Exile had embraced it again, all the way until the bitter end she clung onto the hope the Exile would continue to shun the Force. We see this in the ending itself where Kreia is going "You are beautiful to me, Exile" and such despite that we, the embodiment of the character, have spent the whole game shaking our heads at the Jedi and, finally, Kreia when they all accuse us of being dark even when we're trying to be good.

Kreia is just, simply, insane. She wants everyone to be like the Exile and has made the Exile the only Jedi left standing, so the only one who can pass on the Jedi ways, "ensuring" the Jedi all become like the Exile. Massive misjudgment on Kreia's part, but that's part of the tragic element of her character in a sense, for she just never wanted to accept the "canon light side ending" truth that in the end the Exile had become the first of the new Jedi, not the first of Kreia's Jedi.

But, hey, you have to extend a crazy lady who's about to die a bit of sympathy.

What I want to see in the comics is simply a scene that justifies Kreia's obsession with Malachor. I'm willing to put it down to her obsession with knowledge the same way a librarian is obsessed with a library. But, I'd really like to see a scene where Revan pledges himself to the Sith within Trayus Core. Or even a scene where Darth Revan battles his apprentices after they discover what he has become and only Malak is left standing, jawless, and is then forced to submit to the Sith too.

2/2

Maybe she just liked chastizing people.

No.

I played an "Exile" type in a FFG SW game. Jedi Guardian who survived Order 66 and went into hiding, cutting himself off from the Force as much as he could.

What he realized from this time was that the Force wasn't a defining feature of him, more a tool he could draw upon to help people in need or himself to help people.

He found a text harking back to Kreia's teachings and while he was intrigued at first he became more disgusted with her contradictory rhetoric and hypocrisy, as she stated "APATHY IS DEATH" and yet walked through life taking no sides, ignoring all others and only trying to further her own goals.

He also came to discover that there is no "Light Side" or "Dark Side" of the Force in the traditional sense, as while both certainly exist, it is up to the individual who can use the Force to determine the balance within their using of it.

The Force is not aware, not sentient, it doesn't influence anyone. The individual uses the Force in the way they wish, and to blame the Force for failings, bad luck, evil, is just weakness within the person themselves.

So Kreia, while on the right track, fell to her own hubris and weakness.

I mean, the point was that Kreia was semi-right but still, like you said, fell to her own hubris. In a way, she's the heroic revolutionary fighting against the Force, but in another, she's wholly selfish, and doesn't like the Force for the same reason she doesn't like Bao Dur or the droids-- its something that she can't manipulate. She can control it the way any other force user can, but its an unknown variable, and even worse, something that can potentially control her.

For someone whose entire life is manipulation, betrayal, and lies, the idea of ultimately answering to an inscrutable God would be fucking terrifying.

Anyway, Kreia's great. KOTOR 2 needs to be canon again, somehow.

I see your old lady and raise you the only currently canon gray force wielder.

BENDU!

That's the irony though. The Force gave no fucks about her at all. It was her own insane need for affirmation that made her fall to the Dark Side, then go into super crazy territory when she was betrayed (which if anything was the most intervention the Force had on her life - Dark Siders be Dark Siders yo, they betray and backstab like motherfuckers) and then she was desperate to find a way to "kill the Force" even though she knows full well you can't do that.

She simply could not accept that she was an entirely average person in a galaxy filled with titans, like her former apprentice, Revan. She was "just another Jedi/Sith", and her mark on the universe was less than the students she mocked.

Grays also confirmed for best force power: turn into literally lightning storms.

>She was "just another Jedi/Sith", and her mark on the universe was less than the students she mocked.
I don't know user. Exterminating two super secret clubs and rebuilding one of them leaves a pretty big mark in history.

Kreia was blatantly selfishly evil and doesn't become morally ambiguous just because the writers say she is when that's not backed up by anything that actually happens in the story.
KotOR II was as bad as the prequels.

>He also came to discover that there is no "Light Side" or "Dark Side" of the Force in the traditional sense, as while both certainly exist, it is up to the individual who can use the Force to determine the balance within their using of it.

Too bad this is factually wrong

>Too bad this is factually wrong
Explained the Bendu then?

>give a homeless guy 5 space dollareedoos
>"you've ruined that man's life because of unforeseen risks that you couldn't possibly be aware of that are entirely your fault even though he should've known the risks better than you. Nothing unexpectedly good can ever happen, if you don't predict it then it must be shit."
>"Also I was kicked out of both the jedi and the sith for questioning their teachings which is good, so don't ever question my teachings. Seriously, don't try to argue with me, I'm the writer's mouthpiece so every dialogue option that disagrees with me is retarded."

>unforeseen risks that you couldn't possibly be aware of
Right, because you would publicly hand money over to someone in the street while standing in a ghetto.

The homeless guy seems to think it's a good idea and he lives there. I didn't approach him.
If it's so dangerous, why didn't he know better than to beg for money? Or, at the very least, to be more subtle about it?
Hell, maybe he learned a valuable lesson from getting mugged and his life will be better for it.
I can't predict every dumbass thing that might happen to this random hobo, so I may as well just give him 5 spaceland funbux and wish him the best.

Kreia would cream her pantaloons at the thought of the Grey Paladins. Not fully, but enough since there is the whole 'people on the right path' thing.

Shit story writing.

>Shit story writing.
Times are changing old man. The force can no longer be viewed in simple black and white

I mean if you rewrite parts of the universe to make a character right yeah, they're gonna sound pretty wise.

By the way can we stop having a run of this thread every second month?

In the primary SW series, it has never been anything but.
Only the video games, to justify a dark side protagonist, and the EU material, to create dramatic fodder, have brought up this concept that people latched on to like the OT never happened.

She was a bitter old hag who got buttmad at the force because her apprentices kept beating her up with it.

>The force can no longer be viewed in simple black and white
It's literally that though.

Only because the Jedi space church is so large and insistent that they're views are correct.
Other races develop their own space traditions and don't seem to fall into the GOOD vs EVIL as easily.

In the OT, the dark side doesn't really have an existence beyond Palpatine and those in service to him.

If we are still using movie canon only however, Dooku, on the other hand, is a pretty good example of how you can be a "gray jedi/sith" (or "ambidextrous" force user, however you want to put it) without being corrupted or evil in the least. Indeed, he was a voice of reason when faced with the jedi, and the galaxy burned because they ignored him.

I am aware that in the EU Dooku was a lot more evil, but then again in the EU we also have much nicer dark siders as well...

Contrary to EU memes, there doesn't seem to be "aligned" force powers in movie canon. Luke force choked and Yoda used lightning just fine (though it may have been an absorb/discharge type effect).

>other races
How any of those are mammals without natural weapons or armor and a long gestation period?

>Only because the Jedi space church is so large and insistent that they're views are correct.
No.

Getting imbalanced one too many ties makes you into an insane space monster.

There's no subjectivity to it.

Look, I'm not a moral absolutist but the 'verse is.

Yes and no.

Force choke as a DS power is retarded, but Force Lightening is very much Sith.
(Also kind of dumb if you go beyond the scope of the movie as it does nothing of value in an extended fight against multiple people)

This. Fuck Kreia, and fuck the way they tried to present her as some voice of reason. She's just regular selfish and regular asshole, ie real-world evil instead of comic book evil.

>In the OT, the dark side doesn't really have an existence beyond Palpatine and those in service to him.
There are only five force users in the OT anyway. Space Kermit, Desert Hobo, Impressionable Farm Kid, Cyborg Dad, and The Most Powerful Man in the Galaxy.

So what you're saying is the light side turns you into a homeless person or homeless mutant, while the darkside gives you bitching robot parts or supreme power?

At the cost of not looking like a corpse.

I gotta say, I was very frustrated to find out the reason teh Emprah looked weird wasn't "the corruption of the dark side," but rather "I hit myself in the face with lightning bolts for 30 minutes straight."

If you're concerned with what personal gains the force 'gives you', you've already picked the dark side. And yes, that would be the correct choice for what you want anyway.

I am pretty sure the jedi take younglings voluntarily (both re: the parents and kids), so they probably do woo them over with what force training will get for you. You can apparently just up and leave at any time to study the dark side and they won't bother you as well.

Going by the films, it's right. The Force doesn't seem to have its own will, but instead to reflect the wills of those that are a part of it, great or small. The 'dark' side is just a reflection of the people that use it and influence it. Thing is, the Force DOES seem to also influence people passively. The more you indulge in extremes, the more you'll find yourself encouraged to indulge in extremes.

Not as of the prequels. Like all things her accomplishments were buried under the sands of time.

I thought they just boop boop booped the parents

Sure, you have fun in your dumpster. The cyborg space wizards will be elsewhere.

>I can't predict every dumbass thing that might happen to this random hobo, so I may as well tell him "fuck off, I don't know you".
ftfy.

>give homeless guy credits
Kreia gives you a vision of him getting killed.
>don't give homless guy credits
Kreia gives you a vision of him killing someone.

In either scenario, just run to the next area and look, no body, homeless guy is just standing there. Apparently Darth Treya the Sith lord of betrayal is not entirely honest in her teachings.

What pasta is this

I am unable to nkt be baited by SJW rhetoric and also am a sad, stunted individual who enjoys getting mad on the internet

There's a guy who randomly spams the same copypasta and the same picture linked to the OP, talking about how there is 'no conspiracy about social justice'. There is never, ever any relation to SJ stuff in the copypasta. He turns up every year, gets banned. It's that time of year for him.

She wasnt grey you shit. Her plan was essentially a force biological weapon. She was sith, but pissed about nihilus' boys club and her former apprentice being shits so she essentially rebranded until the end when she returned to sith. In fact the only difference in her sith credo was to use reasoned and planned evil instead of some retarded space nigger acting like a force beserker, flinging themselves at the jedi looking for fights.

You are an idiot. Kill yourself. 9/11 got me to reply.

Kreia's teachings were grey. The early ones, not so much the 'hey, wouldn't it be funny if you annihilated the Force itself?' part.

She's from Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2, she's your mentor and first party member. Something you learn real quick about her is she manipulates people, and has no qualms about it. Even wanting the Exile to manipulate others, but never be manipulated by another not even her.

Does the dynamic seem different between Kreia and a female Exile and a male Exile?

The main gender difference is that she cautions you against thinking with your dick. Repeatedly.

She was objectively wrong. Disney said so. Disagree, and the Disney thought police will make you disappear in the night.

I loved what kreia did, and thought she was a giant fuck you to allignment systems in games. That isn't to say her implementation as a fuck you was without flaw.

I'd love to see Obsidian get access to the mass effect IP and do a giant fuck you to the Paragon/Renegade system.

Imagine one scenario where taking the renegade, "fuck the rules" option results in tragedy that the rules are designed to prevent. And then in another story (definitely not the same scenario/quest), taking the paragon "the rules have a purpose" approach results in the bad guy getting away and causing a tragedy.

My one problem with Kreia is that when she did things like this, it was in the same instance, so there literally was no right answer. Either way you went, you were railroaded into a bad result.

Yeah, I think that's the only difference really. Their dialogue doesn't change except regarding Handmaiden and blindchick. Interestingly she doesn't warn a female Exile about romancing Disciple or even Atton

Why would she need to?

>I'd love to see Obsidian get access to the mass effect IP and do a giant fuck you to the Paragon/Renegade system.
Play Mass Effect Andromeda.

>The exiles are demanding access to the outpost.
1. Yes
2. Yes (sarcastic)
3. Yes (serious)
4. Tell me more.

IIRC she warns you a lot about Atton initially, and then after she puts him completely under her thumb she doesn't give a shit. If you romance Atton that's just one more tool she has to control you.

True.
Sion is the best husbando, and you should play a female exile just for the romance dialogue he has.

You forgot the female only option:

5. Visible Confusion

Obsidian saying fuck you to morality systems results in games like Alpha Protocol (that has way better facial animation than MEA; I know I'm beating a dead horse, but this game was gorgeous for a 2010 AA).
I wish we got more games like Alpha Protocol. I want to make people drink bleach to gain the friendship of the local CIA agent again.

Ripped for her pleasure.

I loved Alpha Protocol. The story, I mean, I can barely remember the gameplay. It's one of the few rpgs where I felt my choices really mattered in the end. Most of the others go for "Well if you made X choices, you get ending X, and if you made Y choices, you get ending Y", or even "Well it's always ending Z but one dialog line is different".
Too bad it went by unnoticed.

They were not. They were reasoned not amoral. The game insists that everything be done for a good reason instead of the call of the murderhobo.

On narshadda you get talked at for messing with the beggars. It is because of what it gets you, not why you do it. That isnt grey, its manipulative. She manipulated you into doing shit. Listen the the monologue on dantooine before the beginning of the end. Listen to her words.

The end of all things is not good, it is not grey, it is evil. It is the unwilling murder of all things. Congrats, you are evil, she was just too cool/too pissed to use the title sith until she figures out that power through that title is to be respected.

Play the game and this time listen to the dialouge.

That *is* grey in the SW universe.

Massbmurder isnt grey in any universe. Even 40keks

>40k mass murder
What is it? Your personal flavor of evil? /your dudes/ and their special snowflake form of evil?

kreia worshipers are the worst star wars fans, worse than prequel defenders, worse than those 3dcg cartoon lovers

No, but planning your actions is. You're supposed to just go by instinct and intuition. Thinking about it and deciding to base your actions on careful reasoning? For a forcer, that's pretty fucking grey.

So Darth Sidious is grey?

>He found a text harking back to Kreia's teachings and while he was intrigued at first he became more disgusted with her contradictory rhetoric and hypocrisy, as she stated "APATHY IS DEATH" and yet walked through life taking no sides, ignoring all others and only trying to further her own goals.
How is that hypocritical?

I can't beat the octogenarian guy who can take eight shotgun blasts to the chest and outpunch my melee-specked character.

I sure wish I could see more of this story.

He's a lot more grey than Maul.

Keep on truckin'. There's always a way to win and the game is worth it.

He's WAY more evil than Darth Maul, what are you talking about?

Planningng your actions makes it premeditated. more evil

It never was consistent if Dark Side changes your appearance or not. Personally I prefer to do it the way that there is no physical change but many sith want power and so will experiment on their own bodies to see if they can squeeze a little more.

Because she was apathetic about everything except herself, so she effectively killed herself.

That's a very strange definition of apathy.

She cared tremendously about the PC and aggressively took action to shape him according to her desires. She was a teacher and cared greatly about philosophy and teaching. She didn't care what you *did* with her teachings, what conclusions you reached, so long as you listened and *thought* about what you were doing.

Gray jedi are just a gay attempt to have the best of both sides with none of the consequences, and anyone who plays one should be shot, then quickly hung before they die from the shot.

Made me lauhj

I think they're mostly an attempt to add some nuance to an otherwise boring setting.

I like you.

Well, time to perfect my badman cackle.

Moo hoo ha ha.

Palpatine isn't evil

They were not "Grey" she was seducing you to the dark side.

>Palpatine isn't evil
People see Star Wars as a simple good vs evil plot and so try to inject philosophy into it with this "Empire did nothing wrong" nonsense, but they entirely miss that Star Wars is about how in confronting evil we can become it ourselves.

No, she didn't. She was using the Exile as a tool to try and accomplish something for herself. Her entire being was focused on "killing the Force" which was an impossible task. Her saying apathy is death and then being apathetic is just one of the many, many things she did wrong.

Surik: "Did you love me?"
Kreia: "I would have killed the galaxy to preserve you. I would have let the galaxy die. You are more rare than you know, and what you have taught yourself must not be allowed to die. You are not a Jedi. Not truly. And it is for that that I love you."

That's all I really got out of her character. A sense of smug superiority to... literally everything.

Palpatine is pure evil

Vergere did it better.

> "A lightsaber is an interesting weapon. A blade unique in the history of warfare. A paradox, not unlike the Jedi who wield it: those peaceful warriors, who kill in the service of life. Have you ever noticed? The blade is round. It has no edge. But it is a lightsaber—which means it is nothing but edge. There is no part of this blade that does not cut. Curious, yes? Symbolic, one might say."

>Jacen: "Stay away from me, Vergere. I mean it."
>Vergere: "I believe you. But what matters your meaning? How will you prevent me? Will you slay? Will you maim? Cripple your friend Vergere? No? Break a bone, then—above the wrist, if you don't mind. It should heal cleanly enough to be a merely temporary inconvenience."
>Jacen: "Vergere—"
>Vergere: "Inflict pain. Twist my elbow. Pluck feathers from my crest. Otherwise, sit down and show me your ribs. Orders not backed by force are only suggestions, Jacen Solo."

>Vergere: "Light and dark are no more than nomenclature: words that describe how little we understand. What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To be a Jedi is to control your passion…but Jedi control limits your power. Greatness—true greatness of any kind—requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave your limits behind."
>Jacen: "But—but the dark side—"
>Vergere: "If your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not because the Force has darkness in it. It is because you do."
>Jacen: "Me? No—no, you don't understand—the dark side is, it's, it's, don't you see it? It's the dark side. The dark side…"
>Vergere: "The only dark side you need fear, Jacen Solo, is the one in your own heart."

I have something you can yank

Was Vergere the most fedora Star Wars character?

Her whole point was that because the Force and destiny were bound up with one another, destroying the Force would "free" everyone from whatever destiny had in store for them.

Her whole notion about the Force and destiny is a response to Jolee Bindo's comments about the Force and destiny in KoTOR 1.

youtube.com/watch?v=VdR93ilzrvA

The only problem with this is that the OT shows that a person has a choice, and Vader is redeemed because he chooses not to kill his son, and not to allow the Emperor to do it. Destiny isn't written in stone, no matter how Jolee or Kreia might view it.

As for Kreia berating the Exile over their choices? It's merely to get you to pay attention to your choices, that they can affect more than is intended - but the take away shouldn't be that you should never act for fear of the consequences, because not acting is a choice too.

That, and she's a bitter old cunt.