Now that the dust has settled, who was in the wrong here?

Yiffs are always wrong.

Or the best option: putting Angron down.

Wasn't it possible for his Librarians to suppress the effects of the Nails?

Underrated post.

Everyone.
>Emperor never talked about the webway which
>Magnus ruined (along with huge swathes of Terra) out of retardedly high levels of hubris so that he had to be brought in by
>Valdor, whose golden ass always had to be on the fence and so never put his foot down hard enough with
>Russ, who despite his loyalty got extremely trigger happy after getting a rubbing and a blank weapons check from
>Horus, who capitalized on everyone's misery to kidnap thousands of psykers and off a couple of loyalist regiments on the side

The big debate is how to serve out the portion of the blame. Magnus gets a pretty big share of it by actively fucking shit up and moping later, but Prospero as a planet and a people was damned by all of them together.

Almost everyone in 40k is wrong, and evil, and usually stupid or blind to the obvious. That's kind of the point. It's literally the worst of all possible worlds.

>Angron
>The single worst deal experienced by any primarch

I'm glad you see reason. Angron got absolutely shafted while Lorgar just proves that the emperor could be an idiot when the situation demanded

They could not be removed without destroying the emperor's expensive, broken but still kind of functional demigod general and while the world eaters librarians could force him back to a more lucid state it was costly, only got harder to do as he degraded and there simply where not enough left after the edict and nails experiments.

Big E ultimately decided it was better to let angron go and presumably work out how to spin his inevitable death when it happened. He was unlikely to survive the nails long enough to see the crusade end

>I think Angron could have gotten the nails out with help if he wasn't so angry all the time and let people help him.

They literally couldn't. Angron's nails replace parts of his spine and brain.

And the Emperor, with all his space-magic and super-science, couldn't work out a way to regrow that part? Or at least reprogram them to remove the pain and "can only feel good when angry and killing" bits?

If he could, he would have magic'ed fully grown and emotionally healthy Primarchs to begin with instead of making test tube babies, wouldn't he? Fucking use your head before you post you faggot.

DAoT tech was some fucked up shit - the Emperor was good at a lot of things, but the intricacies of a lot of tech wasn't really his wheelhouse - he's a god-level geneticist, not so much an engineer.

He probably could handle the reproduction Nails that were put in the World Eaters' skulls, but the originals were beyond him, or any of the magi that looked at them - as said he decided to just keep Angron around as basically a monster on a chain until the Nails killed him

The least the Emperor could have done is intervene and helped out Angron's army, even if it was planting himself between them and the high riders and saying "okay stop this shit".
Just goes to show how the Emperor valued conquering the galaxy over his sons.

Everyone: Magnus has a slight problem of his own Hubris, Arrogance and Self-Importance.
Russ was a triggerhappy hypocritical primarch who was provoked way to easy
Horus was just an asshole here,
Emps was actually quite reasonable, everything considered, I can't see what he did wrong here actually

I think the idea of Curze was that he was just as much a force of nature as Angron, just as much a slave to his nature as any of the other Primarchs, it's just that part of his nature was knowing he'd be a fuck up.

I don't believe Magnus deserves that big a piece of the blame, he fucked up hard but given the information he had his choices were entirely logical.
Tzeentch is the one is primarily at fault but other than him almost all of these catastrophic errors can be traced back to the Emperor being unable to just explain things to people and just arrogantly assuming that no one would ever go against his orders. In that sense Magnus resemble him quite a lot.

Russ isn't particularly at fault either, he like Magnus got played by Tzeentch and made the best choices he could with the information he had.

Russ took what had already been fucked up and destroyed any hope of recovery and made things even worse by indirectly causing the death of Malcador and the Emperor's internment on the golden throne.
Had Magnus been brought in alive like the emperor initially instructed Magnus would have been stuffed on the golden throne and would have been able to maintain the astronomican and possibly even manage the warprift he made, without that mankind is now even more doomed than initially.

In that sense Russ and Magnus had the opposite problem, Magnus' inability to follow orders led to damnation and Russ's inability to think critically about them sealed the deal.
Both problems could have been averted by the Emperor simply explaining the reason behind his orders to them.

The Emperor obviously. From the very beginning.

You are a legit retard. The Emperor told Horus to tell Russ to arrest Magnus. Horus changed the order. Russ followed orders handed by the Emperor through Horus which he had no reason to doubt especially considering that the Emperor INFRONT OF EVERYONE told Magnus that he will destroy him in he caught him practising sorcery.

He never told Magnus WHY warp magic was bad, he never told Magnus WHY he shouldn't use it, he never told Magnus WHY he needed his talents, and he never told anyone else anything that could have averted the whole thing because it made his actions make sense instead of just seeming like a fucking tyrant throwing orders around arbitrarily.

If he'd told Magnus warp magic was bad because the evil super daemons would do horrible shit to you and everyone around you, Magnus MIGHT have cut it out. If he'd told Magnus that he was needed to help create a stable, safe way through the warp that didn't take chances of daemons and time fuckery, Magnus might have trusted him to do the right thing.

If the Emperor had told Horus literally anything at all about his plans, Horus might have trusted him more than a spooky space voice that gave him visions of the Emperor fucking up the Imperium forever.

...

That doesn't really change anything though, Russ still made a bad situation worse by blindly following orders, ruining any hope of recovery from Magnus's mistakes.

Don't get me wrong though, I see both Russ and Magnus as victims of fate (Tzeentch) and the Emperor's arrogance.

I too feel sorry for Mangus, but we're talking about Magnus here, user.

TGGI

>What is known is that Angron was discovered by a slaver who chanced upon the battered and bleeding figure of the young Primarch surrounded by scores of alien corpses, high in the northern Desh'elika Mountains. History does not record what species these aliens belonged to, but many Imperial scholars believe them to have been Eldar who attempted to kill the Primarch, due to some psychic foreknowledge of the plague upon the galaxy he would one day become.
>Scores: 5. A group of 20 or more items.
"Scores" of elite Eldar assassins couldn't kill a child?

No. He comments to Arkhan Land that he could have removed them, once he understood what they were doing, but doing so would kill Angron, they were too far advanced, and DAoT tech can be retardedly hard to stop.

The emperor wouldnt listen as Magnus tried to warn him of the Horus heresy. He simply condemned his use of psychic powers. I blame the emperor for this shit show. Yes, Magnus defied the emperor's explicit orders, but in the end, it is the emperor's pride that destroyed everything.

He is suppose to follow orders. He is a commander whose sole task is to be the Emperor unquestioning executioner. He was fulfilling his function. Anything less than that is treason.

Russ simply did nothing wrong. He is innocent.

No one said they were elite. They could have been guardians who took their own initiative at the behest of a young gun leader who got a premonition. Formal Eldar intervention in the GC and HH eras were either of a diplomatic nature (Eldrad's warning to Fulgrim) or of a military nature backed by huge commitments of amassed strength and logistics to a singular location or region.

The edict says to bring Magnus before the throne for judgment. Russ did not bring Magnus before the throne for judgment.

We could have a conversation about how Russ unnecessarily exacerbated the situation until it spun wildly out of his control; but as far as a basic argument goes, Russ fucked up the entire point of the mission.

>ignore the emperor's warning not to use magic
>use forbidden arts to tear a hole in reality in the imperial palace
>in the midst of a daemonic hellstorm, scream that the empror's most trusted general is actually a traitor and that magic totes rules
yes, clearly it is the emperor's pride doing the damage here

A much less arrogant person would have reflected on the nature of the Emperor's order (why the FUCK would the most powerful PSYKER in the GALAXY ban PSYCHIC POWERS despite being a PSYKER) and realize that there must be a good reason why the Emperor wants him to do everything the hard way.

But Magnus was not such a man. Magnus had an ego the size of Russ's dick.

From Magnus' perspective there was a pretty obvious reason, to placate the growing distrust in psykers within the Imperium and to thus keep the peace internally.
It's not even totally wrong.

Also even i agree that Magnus' had problems with his ego so it seems weird you'd go on to imply he has none.

Because sending messages through the warp are so easy and clear...

If Russ had stuck to the original orders Malcador would be alive, the Emperor wouldn't be stuck on the golden throne and Magnus would be atoning for his fuck ups instead of running around destroying the Imperium as a Daemon Primarch.

Russ fucked big time.

The Cyclops. Defending Magnus at this point is just people trying to be edgy

Well yea. If Magnus pulls off such an outrageous show, maybe, as his father, you should at the very least consider what he's saying before dismissing everything he says as lies. In all his infinite might and knowledge, I expected more wisdom from the leader of man kind.

I'm almost certain all these posts are just one really butthurt space wolf player since it's always the exact same half arsed non-argument.

>From Magnus' perspective there was a pretty obvious reason, to placate the growing distrust in psykers within the Imperium and to thus keep the peace internally.
>Magnus wanted to repair the image of psykers as individuals who believe they are above the law (legal, natural, whatever) by breaking the law.

His POV is fucked, he realized it was fucked in hindsight, and he felt so bad about it that he wanted to do the equivalent of a Primarch slitting his wrists on livestream. For all of Russ' touted abilities of introspection into the characters of his brothers, he should have figured out that Magnus was in full suicide mode and just needed to talk to an equal and a friend.

Maybe he did. I mean, I'm still not sure which is canon anymore: That Russ launched wholeheartedly into murder mode, or that he really didn't want to do it, but orders were orders.

I know each of them were canon at one point, I just don't know which one is NOW.

Let us not forget that the Emperor also consorted and made deals with the Chaos god's but on a much grandees scale than Magnus and while also being fully aware of what the chaos gods were unlike Magnus. And not unlike Magnus it also blew up in his face but again on a much grander scale.

Most of this could have been avoided by j
Being less arrogant and realising they might not always be right.

In many ways Magnus and the Emperor are quite alike.

Whats canon was Russ waited 45 minutes for a call back after leaving a few voicemails and then he commenced the siege because he felt personally offended. Thats like your tabletop buddy deciding to bombard your house with rotten eggs because you couldn't return his text messages over a busy afternoon. What we do know about Russ' actions come off as petty at best.

Would you break the law to try and save the life of you brother? Or the save your father from your brother?
I think most people would and Magnus is no different.

This
He fucked up big time, but he was loyal and wasn't told much of the dangers of the warp, he made a mistake and it cost him a fuck load, he wasn't overly arrogant or an asshole

Exactly. Magnus did what was needed to preserve the imperium and warn his father.

>look at me I am retard who uses outdated lore

No, you moron, the edict reached Russ with a demand that he murder Magnus. The Emperor PERSONALLY gave Horus the command and Horus relied the order with his authority on top of the Emperor's.

There is no buts or if. Russ did nothing wrong. It's not his fault that the Emperor trusted Horus to be his messenger.

Oh my god another retard.

MoW says, OUTRIGHT SAYS, that the original orders were to kill Magnus. Russ got no other orders.

>"Son stop sticking your head into the swirling daemon vortex."
>"You can't tell me what to do Daaaad!"
>*sticks head in daemon vortex*
>*super secret project explodes in endless tide of daemons*
>"...Get the Wolves."

Magnus did nothing right.

Oh if only, Emperor never told him it was a swirling Daemon vortex, as far as he was concerned it was the source of the very powers the Emperor had given him at birth.

Also his reasons for delving deeper were undeniably noble, he was trying to save Horus and when that failed he tried to warn the Emperor about it.

Jesus you are so thick headed.

Also if Magnus is at fault for these things despite having no knowledge of what the consequences would be or what he was actually doing (because the Emperor never told him) then Russ is at fault for the death of Malcador and the Emperor's internment of the golden throne as well as Magnus' ascension to daemonhood.

Also the fundamental rule of 40k lore is that it is unreliable and self contradictory, as far as I'm concerned the new version is Imperial propaganda meant to make Russ look better.

Who was in the wrong here?

Or rather
>Shit, Horus is about to become a traitor to the Imperium and get warp-empowered
>Shit, I failed to convince him to turn back
>Shit, he's the most charismatic of us, and one of the strongest warriors
>Analyze current Primarch status
>Angron: Angry towards Dad, will defect sides
>Curze, Lion: Edgy crazy fuckers, might turn sides
>Alpharius: Can't be sure. Legion is adept at guerrilla, and if turns, could be extremely dangerous
>Perturabo: Butthurt about Dorn being Praetorian and getting to reinforce Terra. Extremely good at sieging.
>Lorgar: Yeah, this fucker is totally on Horus's side after what happened to Monarchia
>Fulgrim: Don't know, but his marines have been acting more arrogant than usual. Fuck fuck fuck.
>Sanguinius, Dorn, Guilliman, Vulcan, Ferrus Manus, Russ, Corax: Hate them or love them, I can trust them to be loyal.
>Khan: Bros for life, but I don't know about his loyalty.
>Mortarion: Shit, he's pissed that Father is totally a psyker.
>Analysis: All Space Marines are loyal to death to their Primarchs. More than half the legions could switch sides, plus auxiliaries. This could mean being defeated if we get caught by surprise.
>Sorry Dad, need to completely ignore your orders because whatever your secret plan is, THE IMPERIUM IS AT STAKE ON THIS ONE.

The answer is always Lorgar.
Lorgar is worst Primarch.

The Nails were built from knowledge given by Khorne. Guess what happened.

The Nails eventually killed their librarian hosts.

He was so arrogant his Legion literally kept daemons as pets. He didn't even consider why there might be a giant magic wall in his way, or why the totally trustworthy multi-eyed bird man would want to give him a power boost to punch through it. And then he didn't even have the balls to just walk out and commit seppuku in front of Russ, choosing instead to take his whole planet and Legion down in the most retarded way possible.

Magnus did nothing right. All he had to do was listen and use a fucking Astropath.

I thought the librarians had the opposite effect, and that just being around them caused his nails to act up

They were able to do a sort of Séance and combine themselves into a gestalt warp entity that could breach Angron's clouded mind and bring him back to semi-sanity. It would always end in most of the participants deaths.

>"I'm sure bursting into the palace at the head of an endless tide of daemon after pinching through this obviously superfluous giant magical wall will make me seem totally trustworthy."
>"What do you mean I fucked everything up."

If Magnus had listened the Emperor would have been able to personally crush Horus before he got Warp-roided into his super form.

Right except they had no idea they were Daemons because the Emperor never told anyone that Daemons existed, they thought they were warp constructs they had made themselves out of raw warp energy.

Also do you know nothing about the lore?
The whole reason Magnus did what he did was because an Astropath would have been too slow and Horus would already be wreaking havoc by the time the message got through.

Lastly, how was Magnus supposed to know the barrier was anything important and not just another weird warp anomally when the Emperor never told him about the webway project.

And again the Emperor insisted on never telling anyone about the malevolent beings in the warp, and so Magnus again didn't know any better in regards to trusting them.

He knew Warp intelligences existed, they were just thought another type of xeno. Also he traded an eye to one years before the HH.

>He didn't use an astropath because it would be too slow

Except it wouldn't have been, the whole Prospero debacle got started months before the HH. And Magnus clearly recognized the Emperor's wards as wards.

They didn't know most of the stuff in the warp was evil though, since the warp entities had been doing their best to deceive them and with the Emperor refusing to enlighten them they didn't have any better information to go on.

Now you're just talking out of your ass, it's explicitly stated that Magnus' did not recognise the barrier as man made and yes it would have been too slow as inter-Segmentum messages can take months to deliver and Prospero is in the Ultima Segmentum not Segmentum Solar.

>>Fulgrim: Don't know, but his marines have been acting more arrogant than usual. Fuck fuck fuck.
That seems perfectly innocuous. There's no reason for alarm.

Everyone, it's a tragedy.

The art director who made it look like a paintjob I used to see at the floors of roller coasters.

Alternatives:

>Break these ward and daddy's law
>Stay still and continue sending messages to Terra and other neighbors
>Mobilize the legion and prepare for Dorns inevitable call to war - analyzing the fates and scheming like a Farseer

You aint wrong about that.

Somehow Khan

>balcony doesn't break

>The Emperor told Horus to tell Russ to arrest Magnus
That's not how things were told in Inferno. Emperor asked for a Censure Host, composed of SoS, Custodes, SW and some contingents of the Imperial Army. They all had to meet before going to gether to Prospero. Russ reached the rezenvous point before the Terran group and then was met by a delegation from SoH, which brought a missive from Horus to Russ.

Neither of them. Magnus only sent a message to the Emperor warning him of Horus. Not his fault the Emperor didn't have good defenses set up against the Warp.

I mean those aren't mutually exclusive and he was probably planning on doing all.

Besides in the position he was in breaking a rather innocuous barrier and a law that was pretty hypocritical seems like a rather small price to pay to prevent a massive empire wide rebellion.

Again things only seemed this way because the Emperor never told anyone about the extremely sensitive project he had going on, so Magnus had no way of knowing there even was anything there to fuck up.

No matter what happened we can a agree that Horus did nothing wrong right? He never wanted to be a rebel or a traitor. He was the perfect son. The closest to his father any of the primarchs were.

Horus was poisoned with space ebola aids and then told by his piece of shit brother that his dad was becoming everything they had fought against for hundreds of years during the black crusade. Horus is the real tragedy here.

Thats why the emps didnt kill him... and saved his soul for when the imperium needs him most again.

Is this some bizarre deflection tactic?
Well taking this at face value, though Horus is certainly a tragic figure there was a turning point at which he went from well intentioned but misguided to truly evil, for Horus it was shortly after his corruption at the hands of Erebus just as for Magnus it was his arrival at the planet of Sorcerers.

>Thats why the emps didnt kill him... and saved his soul for when the imperium needs him most again.
And that is about retarded enough that I could see GW do it. So go share your fan fiction with them, they might even hire you.

Shitty Forge World canon < Actual Codex fluff

In Wrath of Magnus it comes right out and says it's his fault he's a daemon, no matter how much he whines otherwise. It wasn't Russ or the Emperor who made him do deals with daemons and ignore Nikea, it was his own utter surety in his genius and control.

Remember that all 40k lore is unreliable, what you are reading is the imperial perspective, the FW books are far more neutral and factual, and quite frankly a lot better written.

Also the Emperor is still a hypocrite here cause he also made deals with the Chaos gods and also had them backfire spectacularly because he was also absolutely sure in his own genius and mastery over the warp.

Prospero Burns also has nothing saying the Emperor told Russ to kill Magnus.

You can not like BL or FW, but their Prospero narratives are much better than from a supplement.

Who cares, 30k and Horus Heresy is a poorly written shitshow anyways.

whoever made this image so blurry

>The Emperor did deals with Chaos

According to... Chaos, who as we all know are an extraordinarily reliable and trustworthy lot, who also stop their endless wars with each other to hand out ridiculous amounts of power to a random mortal with absolutely no way to take it back. I'm sure doling out obscene amount of psychic power to a mortal is something, say, Khorne would have no problem with.

...

This is the only correct answer.

Angron for grabbing the railing too hard. That shit's expensive, Angron. Stop it.

If the Emperor had been even remotely honest with the primarchs about the nature of the warp, or about his secret plans Magnus might have listened to him.

Well if you can choose to ignore that lore, I'm going to choose to ignore that crap from WoM.

Besides if we assume that it is true than the Chaos gods would have had the deal work out almost perfectly in the end, after all the Emperor is a corpse, his realm is in ruins and they got back at least half of the power they gave out in the form of the traitor Primarchs as well as vast armies by which to further spread their power.

Stop replying to yourself.

I'm not ignoring the gods' claims. I'm saying they're as plausible as their claims to Horus to be harmless spirits being bullied by the Emperor and totally uninterested in the material realm.

And I clearly just explained to you why they are in fact quite plausible.

No, they aren't. Not only are the gods mortal enemies and not inclined to grant power to the same guy (since the Bel'aloe incident), they never give out goodies they can't take back. One of them is explicitly against the idea of trickery and witchcraft in general. They don't do that kind of thing.

Right but as I explained they totally did have a way of taking back the power used to make the Primarchs and that is by corrupting the Primarchs.

Also Khorne was totally on board with scattering the Primarchs so clearly he isn't always against deceptive plans and tricks.