What exactly does lawful and chaotic represent?

What exactly does lawful and chaotic represent?

I understand its just a mentality kind of thing, not to be taken too seriously.

But people can't even agree on what it means to be either lawful or chaotic, it still doesn't make sense.

Well, it's not "how you act" or "whether you have a code", that's for sure.

Separate the alignments according to 1st word and 2nd word.

1st Word: "Outer Perspective" Your view/goal of how society should be.

2nd Word: "Inner Perspective" Your basic personal moral convictions.

Therefore, if you're "Chaotic Good," you have a personal moral compass for good. However, you're against "the man," and oppose all societal laws. You may join an unlawful riot if you feel it's the right thing to do. But that's okay, the party Paladin will pass the hat and bail you out of jail.

The real confusion is what "Chaotic Neutral" means. I take the hardline approach that it's a form of insanity. I generally don't like the type of player that chooses CN, and usually force them to roll a random D8 or flip a coin for every personal or group decision. If they don't like it, they can pick another alignment.

How is this not almost entirely self explanatory?

The issue I've always seen is that lawful and chaotic are not antithesis to each other.

See, if you look at Lawful first, then you think Chaotic means "unlawful," as in, "respects (or does not respect) the law." From this angle, a character like Batman would be Chaotic, because he is a vigilante.

However, if you look at Chaotic first, you think Lawful means "orderly," as in, "has (or does not have) a code." From this angle, Batman is Lawful, because he holds himself to strict rules.

All things considered, alignment is an art, not a science. It only really works when everyone accepts that there's a bit of wiggle-room.

>Lawful Evil
>not the Thin White Duke

Because it feels too simple to just have it be "follows law really good" and "breaks the law a lot".

Although now that I think about it, I guess thats enough when the other axis is basically "helps people a lot" and "hurts people a lot".

Personally, I think of it as a matter of consistency- Lawful characters have considered in advance and at least try to follow a pre-formed set of guidelines. Chaotic characters live much more in the moment and act based on what seems best in the current circumstances.
Each has their own benefits and drawbacks- lawful can be predictable and get caught up in technicalities but planning in advance can mean more time to consider a situation and make a better decision overall. Chaotic is easily distracted can be unreliable but is better at quick responses to unexpected situations.
>together, they fight crime.

I've seen a lot of stupid alignment charts, but damn.

The reason people are confused by the terms is because they use the word "lawful", but it's really not law in the legal sense, its the concept of order. Do you try to maintain and adhere to the established order of things, regardless of whether that is the best course of action, or do you deliberately rebel against those things, regardless of whether that is the best course of action?

But of course, the choice itself is a trap. Both are flawed, because there is no pattern of behavior that is always right or always wrong in every situation. As is usually the case when you are offered two opposing positions, the best option is somewhere in the middle.

Here's a dilemma for you.

A lawful good character is raised in a nation where slavery is illegal. He becomes an adventurer.
His adventures take him to a nation where slavery is legal, an institution protected by the law.

Is the character still good if he adheres to the law of this nation and abides by slavery?
Is the character still lawful if he goes against the law of this nation and seeks to disrupt the established order?

I share your viewpoint and also your love of Babylon 6.

Rock on

>Because it feels too simple to just have it be "follows law really good" and "breaks the law a lot".
Laws can vary a lot from place to place. They can suddenly change and can actually run counter to a culture's sense of morality. I think that honor works better as an indicator of where you fall on the law / chaos axis. Lawful people care a lot more about their word of honor and not fighting dirty and so forth than chaotic people do.

>War of the Lance Lawful Good
>Not Lawful Evil because of the unescapable pre-scripted Ultimate Railroad
>Bitching about the high CR creatures in an adventure that weren't even there for fighting unless your characters were fucking morons.
Found the Chaotic Evil.

...

...

Lawful people enjoy genocide by nukes and praising giant golden heads.
Chaotic people are cool guys and care for your freedom and well-being.
t. your good friend Louis

because it's complex.

good vs evil is self-explanatory. You're hero who helps other, a dick, or something in between. There are "tricky" decision sometimes, but in case of core chaaracter's personality it's bluntly simple

Law-Chaos axis isn't like that because oit has, uhm, many aspects. Many, many aspects that are often hardly tied to each other if at all.
Good character is good. that's it
Lawful character is:
>orderly (self-discipline as opposed to discipline towards others)
>obedient
>honourable
>many more adjectives
The connections are often rather loose.

Look at the "honourable" part. What class, save paladin would be most associated with "muh honour" as a trope? Barbarian. Class than in many editions explicitly CAN'T be lawful of course barbarian's honour is of much diffferent kind than paladin's or knight's but relativity of honour is comlpletely different matter Monks of the other hand, archetype of lawfulness in editions of their earliest appearance, shouldn't be actually honourable, in the common meaning - as they aren't supposed to be focused on oneself, and honour is to a degree form of vanity. But they are still lawful because pletora of other lawful traits.

Other matter is being arbitrary and stubborn. Is this chaotic or lawful trait? Is clinging to one's own opinions and whims a sign of chaotic alignment, or being constant and persistent in your views makes you lawful?

Does diehard following the chaotic deity's equally chaotic creed, and ignoring any voice that might suggest that it isn't the only right way make the cleric actually LAWFUL?

Being true to your race's chaotic values (elves, at example) and holding them above all others means you're LAWFUL?

It's complicated and it generates arguments, because not only hero might easily, without being inconsistent, act chaotic at one aspect and lawful in other, but there are acts that can be interpreted as both depending on personal opinions.

Orderly/careless

>Lawful = Adheres to a code of conduct
>Chaotic = Lives without following any code of conduct
>Good = Altruistic
>Evil = Selfish

Thus:
>Lawful Neutral
>There is a proper way of doing things

>Lawful Good
>There is a proper way of doing things, but I will ignore that code to help others

>Lawful Evil
>There is a proper way of doing things, but I will ignore that code if it benefits me

>Chaotic Good
>I don't like anyone who pushes other people around to get what they want

>Chaotic Evil
>I push people around to get what I want

>Chaotic Neutral
>I STAPE TAPE WURMS ON MY PENIS SO THE FLESH WORMS WILL DRINK BRAIN JUICE FROM YOUR FETUS

But people can't even agree on what it means to be either lawful or chaotic, it still doesn't make sense

Thats because the older editions had completely different definitions of law/chaos and pretty different definitions of good\evil and everyone remembers the ones the grew up with, so traditionally law\chaos is about the individual versus society and good evil is well self explanatory except 49.9 are good 49.9 are evil and only a small minority are neutral and only those who are philosophically inclined ever truly become this.

Wot dnd uses the aforementioned respects honour and what have you law chaos definition with the good evil divide being more the every man is neutral and only people who are actively good are good and only those who actively harms others are evil. Much different.

Redpill me on Chaotic Good, Veeky Forums, I'm playing a CG character for the first time, and I'm worried I'll go full chaotic stupid if I don't have a general idea of what it really means.
So far what I've come up with is to be fairly libertarian, in that nobody should ever be forced to do something against their will, but also nobody should ever do things at another person's expense, that's the "good" part; the "chaotic" part is to enjoy life to the fullest, and experience all it has to offer, as long as you don't wrong people in your pursuit of pleasure- i.e. in the campaign I'm currently playing I've so far: caught a worker sabotaging his job for money, and made him share his ill gotten gains with all his fellow workers in exchange for not telling his boss he was the one sabotaging their shipments, and also flirted with said boss who is a half-orc female, resulting in an invitation to a fight-date. Wondering if that's a good balance of good with chaotic, or if I need to have a bit more of a direction than that

inb4 accusations of fetishism. my guy's a half-giant, so he like big girls; me personally, I'm a brown muscle elf kinda guy, myself, just trying to actually play the part.

Agreed. I generally ask my players to define their alignment and why they believe they are it. It gives me a better understanding of their moral code, so i can call them out when they are being OOC by their terms, or create characters that are of a different alignment depending on the viewer. So a neutral good paladin might see one character as chaotic neutral, even if the lawful good characters believe he is chaotic evil, and he wont ping on his detect evil unless theres some objectively evil shit going down.

> I don like chaotic neutral because I think it's insane so I force players to act insane instead of proving me wrong.

IMO, as far as Chaotic is concerned
Chaotic Good- Generally selfish and self serving, but will usually do what is right when a situation calls for it, or when push comes to shove.
Will downplay their role and claim they did a good deed only because they had something to gain from it, even if they did not.

Chaotic Neutral- Also selfish, and self serving, but not nearly as compassionate or altruistic as Chaotic Good
They will only ever work for the "good" side if there actually is something for them to gain from it, and may even work for the bad guys if it proves advantageous to them to do so. However, their only true allegiance is to themselves.
When things get tough, and things stop looking favorable, they'll be the first to split.

Chaotic evil- their intentions may only be known to themselves, but they are the ones who are most okay with their actions resulting in more misery than any sort of tangible gain. They are in it for themselves, and will stomp on as many fingers as it takes for them to get what they want without ever so much as blinking an eye- they truly do not care about other people, and may even despise people outright.

>Bottom right
Fuck I forgot how good this movie was at not taking itself too seriously.

straight from the srd, which while not all-encompassing, is literally a search away:

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

Its from Moorcock pulp fantasy stories. They're otherworldy forces that the multiverse is composed of and in conflict over.

Law is order, organization, logical, linear paths, progressive towards stability but with stagnation and stasis as the totalizing result.

Chaos is change, destruction, emotional, deception, conflicting purposes, mutation and entropy, but with the bonus of possibility and freedom.

You're not suppose to want too much of either. Law to an extent befits things we like such as indoor plumbing and hotpockets, but Chaos lets there be variation. Good and Evil are sort of related, but putting them on an axis was a mistake.

Their traditional symbols are still used on space marines vs chaos space marines. The tactical squad arrow is the arrow of law.

>unlawful people
>mfw
captcha: select Christmas trees

>code of conduct
No.

ahh, the staple tape worms on my penis song, a true classic made famous by that one TF2 video
I see we have a conneiseur here