Why do people who go on about how "every edition of D&D is terrible" never actually have anything to back it up with...

Why do people who go on about how "every edition of D&D is terrible" never actually have anything to back it up with regard to OD&D or BD&D?

I mean, they aren't perfect games, but they work as intended and are genuinely fun to play.

Probably because they haven't played it.

I've played AD&D through 4th, and I can't think of anything in those systems another system doesn't do better.

They're so light there isn't that much to talk about. With other systems there's more complexity and nuance to debate and discuss, but they're both incredibly straightforward.

4th had the best tactical grid combat of any RPG I've ever played. I've yet to see a game which did that particular aspect better.

What system that you've played does "crawl in holes full of scary monsters and steal their shit, hoping you don't run out of food or torches and get trapped down there with them" better than AD&D 1e?
>They're so light there isn't that much to talk about. With other systems there's more complexity and nuance to debate and discuss, but they're both incredibly straightforward.
Yeah, but they're both solid, and we're talking about people who shit all over the board by saying EVERY edition of D&D is bad.

yeah I was initially hard on 4th because of how different it was but seeing how 5th kinda went backwards I grew to appreciate it and my group sticks with 4th
if DM can balance encounters and pace the combat and tactics is pure bliss
on another note not long ago I heard some idiot saying that 4th focus on combat doesn't leave much space for role playing, which was probably the dumbest shit I heard this year

God, that stuff has been said literally since its launch. I keep asking for people to explain why, to try and rationalise or justify why 4e is less roleplay friendly, and the only tangible thing I've been able to get from it is the lack of out of combat utility spells to allow 'creative problem solving'. When pointed out that out of combat utility still exists (if admittedly reduced, the system could have done with more), they whine that it requires teamwork rather than being able to figure it out yourself.

You are entirely right OP. D&D Basic is where D&D's mechanics actually make sense. Otherwise things like classes and levels are stupid. Modern D&D is just a bunch of holdovers from the 70's that won't be abandoned in order to hold on to its identity, despite much better mechanics existing.

>What system that you've played does "crawl in holes full of scary monsters and steal their shit, hoping you don't run out of food or torches and get trapped down there with them" better than AD&D 1e?

Basic D&D, and OD&D.

I'd argue 4e is an example of taking those mechanics along with modern design principles to create a system that made sense. But oddly, the D&D fanbase hated it.

>4th had the best tactical grid combat of any RPG I've ever played. I've yet to see a game which did that particular aspect better.
agreed, only big issues is that some of the math in earlier 4E content can be a little wonky, and that prep work for it and the time needed to play are both pretty high by TRPG standards

>Otherwise things like classes and levels are stupid
honestly at this point I'd rather avoid classless systems where possible, I've come to find most systems of that sort hard to make a thematically and mechanically sound character in

>classes and levels are stupid
really m8
how do you progress though?
would you rather grind gear that has bigger numbers on it instead of raising your characters stats? (monster hunter comes to mind)
or just pure roleplay where dice never come up?
it latter is the case there are systems like that but don't make dnd like it

>50 combat rounds
>only 3 hours
No edition of dnd is this fast.

Generally the alternative is freeform XP spending.

Of course, there are plenty of systems which blur the line. Exalted has you build pseudo 'classes' to guide your point buy, Dark Heresy and the other 40k RPGs work in a similar way.

Things like Legends of the Wulin, meanwhile, give you a 'class' in the form of your Archetype but otherwise let you spend your points freely. Progression is very varied, by this point.

So I take it you've never heard of point buy systems

That's 3.6 minutes per round, or a little under 60 second apiece for four players. It's doable, especially in Basic and OD&D where you have very few mechanical options.

I agree with you, but I'm talking specifically to this person who is making that claim having only played AD&D through 4e.

well I can't deny was was molded by dnd
I am biased, definitely

just this freeform stuff never really worked for me, but I gotta say I never had a group to give it a good long try

Never played those editions, played everything from 2E to 5E though. I don't think any of the editions of D&D are terrible, but their strongest points also tend to be their greatest flaws.
>2E is brutal with death and permanent consequences coming quick and fast at less savvy players.
>3E has a million options and you can make all kinds of interesting characters, if you have 4 hours to spare.
>Pathfinder is just more 3E, warts and all, which is its greatest curse and the only reason it's popular.
>4E has great tactical combat and a large focus on character roles and positioning.
>5E is different enough from 3E to have moderate amounts of innovation and similar enough to 3E to appeal to people who liked that game.

There's really no best or worst edition, but a savvy GM considers each edition's failings when running a campaign.
>Running 2E? Find a level of lethality that works for your players. Maybe opt to knock people out at 0 HP instead, and instead of Save or Die/Suck/ETC let the effect build over three rounds and let them roll to save each round to slow/stop/reverse the condition.
>Running 3E? Hand out a significantly narrowed down list of classes, races, and feats to players at the start so they choose from less. Maybe fold a few skills together and only offer more complicated options when they hit higher levels.
>Running Pathfinder? Do the same thing, only ban kitsune for the love of god.
>Running 4E? Expand on exploration and social interaction rules a bit, maybe expand how powers can interact with those parts of the game.
>Running 5E? Throw out sacred cows from 3E and start adding new and interesting stuff, like Martial Dice from the playtest and giving some new, unique ways to use Skill and Tool Proficiencies when you're specialized in them.

My game is basically a hybrid of 4E and 5E, the simple ASI, proficiency, advantage, and magic item stuff from 5E with the cool AEDU powers of 4E. Works great.

>4e
>prep work ... pretty high

As a 4e DM, I can personally attest that 4e requires the LEAST DM Prep-time of any edition.

I will give you the long play-time, largely from crunchy combat, but prep-time is almost nill.

Torchbearer, GURPS.

So basically they want to run a one-man-party spell caster and 4e rains on their parade by actually balancing martials and casters?

I honestly don't get where this meme comes from. From what I can tell the designers basically went into 4e with the idea of making the DM's job as easy as possible (and also making the combat tactical as fuck)

Pretty much, yeah.

That's because D&Defense Force are so used to eating shit that they have a violent revulsion to games that are actually fucking decent.

It's telling when 5e can succeed in today's community even though it's just 3.PF hollowed out and stream-lined for general audiences.

>how do you progress though?
In most games that offer a point buy system, EXP (or its equivalent) is spent as a resource, which you can use to either improve upon abilities that you had during character creation, or buy new abilities later.

It's generally much faster and offers a lot more creative control as far as how you build your character since, unlike class based systems, you can add abilities to your character without having to dip into multiple classes and slog through a bunch of shit you don't want/need just to get one ability that ties it all together.

Some people think that class based systems are better for newbies, but the reality is that people are fucking stupid and will still ask questions like "what do I roll" and "do I add this bonus to my damage" even though they've been playing the same boring ass human fighter for months so between them, you might as well go with the system that offers the most freedom.

You're still here?
Adults are talking. Go away, shoo.

I'm sorry, did I trigger you? Well too bad snowflake, you need to confront the problem to deal with it.

You're welcome btw.

You're giving yourself way too much credit.
Here's a (you) for the road though. Don't spend it all in one place, kid.

In BRP every time you score a critical or succeed at a skill you had very few points in you write it down and increase it by 1d4 points at the end of the session.

>Goes into a 'tism spasm for being called out on his shit taste
>"Y-Y-You're the k-k-k-kid!"

I could never understand why anyone would ever want to play as the 3.5 "do-anything" caster

I always found the concept rather annoying to play. I always preferred specializing in some way.

When the alternative is playing as the 3.5" "do-nothing" martial and DM's default on banning everything but core, it's pretty much the best you've got to work with.

Besides, nobody actually likes playing tabletop RPG's if they enjoy playing 3.PF and nothing else, they just want to run simulations so that they can show off how amazing their builds are before breaking the game and restarting from scratch.

>Why do people who go on about how "every edition of D&D is terrible"

These people are just sad trolls. Ignoring them is best for everyone.

I'd rather be a "do-one-thing" caster.

But I can't do that, because doing so weakens the party as a whole when compared with playing a "do-anything" caster

>My opinion is perfect and pure, anyone who disagrees is a troll!

Being fair, the best way to make 3.5 work is a part of tier 3/4 classes, which include the selection of limited caster classes they published later along with things like the Tome of Battle martials. The Beguiler was always my favourite limited caster, going hard on illusion spells, using magic as a prop to help sell my bullshit bluff checks.

There isn't much point in being a "do-one-thing" caster tbqhfam.

The point of a caster is that they can do everything while everyone else can only afford to do one specific thing and one specific thing well.

Lucky you playing with a DM who doesn't enforce core-only

These days, the only thing which makes me even somewhat likely to play 3.PF is if the GM knows their shit, bans core casters and actually shows an understanding of the game and its problems.

It's kinda depressing. So much of that fanbase are so obsessed with defending their precious game they let their delusions and justifications get in the way of actually knowing how to run it well. The ones who can do so are few and far between.

>Torchbearer
I disagree strongly.
>GURPS
I like GURPS, but still disagree.

D&D is the Harry Potter of tabletop.

Everyone knows about it, people try it because it's popular. Lots of people thoroughly enjoy it.

It's not particularly well written or balanced, especially later in the game.

But you know what? Hate Harry Potter all you want, despite it flaws: it got kids to read, and hopefully, read something better afterwards. If DnD does nothing other than introduce people to tabletop so they can discover better systems, then DnD should receive some renown for that at least.

The editions of D&D that OP is talking about deserve respect as genuinely good games, not just as babby's first tabletop rpg.

You really should stop pretending you know anything about the game already. It's weird that you honestly seem to believe this, though its clear that you haven't played in probably a decade plus, if ever.

Then please enlighten me, oh sage of Veeky Forums. Precisely what about 'Ban core, play tier 3/4 with a GM who knows their shit' is such an outdated idea?

When was the last time you honestly played.
Go on.

Eh and to be fair, depending on what you do, some other system may well be better for you.

I really like Legends of the wulin, but finding players for it is atrocious because people don't know it. (nor are a lot of my friends into wuxia)
It is also rather clunky in places. (eg. those damn secret arts) And combat WILL take a while to finish. (not that you are expected to finish one all the time, people can and should surrender beforehand at times)

5th edition dnd is... it scratches my fantasy itch. And everyone nearby already knows how to play.

3.5 is... for when I want more finegrained customisation but still dnd.

Then there's GURPS which can be fun and easy to play, but character creation is horrible display of choice paralysis.

WoD is... I never really got into this one much.

Just last week, and I'm making another char for a different campaign.

>Eh and to be fair, depending on what you do, some other system may well be better for you.

True.
But that's not what the trolls are saying when they're trolling.

Answering a question with another completely irrelevant question doesn't make you clever.

Shut up, take your (You), and fuck off with your edition warmongering, old man.

Allow me to express my doubts then. You sound like a person who's never touched the game.

You might just be dumb though.

>Tells someone they don't know anything about the game
>Asked to explain why they're wrong
>Refuses to answer and just insults them

Well shit, we've got a real font of wisdom here folks

What can I say? Educating either liars or idiots sounds like a waste of time, doesn't it?

The thing about D&D is that it has a lot of rules, but those rules don't buy me anything. Combat rules and levels and monster difficulties would be nice if they resulted in a thing where, as a DM, I could say "Level 5 party? Four CR 5 monsters!" but the character balance and monster balance have never been good enough for that to be reliable, so I have to fudge things.

If the system depends on me fudging things, I don't know why I'm playing something with so many rules instead of Risus.

OD&D and such are better in this regard because they accomplish the same amount of nothing in fewer rules.

>5 minute battle
That would be at minimum two full sessions with my retarded group.

I don't know what about this dude makes you so upset.

"Tier 3 only" and "ban core" are the most popular balance patches to 3.5 in the (remnants of the) charop community.

4e's version of encounter balance, at least with the math fix feats and the MM3 monster math, works pretty well.

What? less a waste of time than taking the time to insult random people?

I doubt it.

They're not worth replies at this point. They've pretty much confirmed themselves to be either a troll, or yet another beyond retarded member of the D&D defence force.

Eh, it made me feel better, 's good enough.

You talking to a troll.