BMP

All those were V4 confusions I had.

>You had to leave out half the 2/3rds of the rules (infantry, arty, and assaults) to trim it down to something you could show new players, and even with tanks-only there were things that proved to be complicated to explain to people.
I'm struggling to see how V4's an improvement here, except the "just don't bother showing assault to people because you never want to do it anymore" thing.

Artillery's functionally the same. There's mike target for everyone now which is another rule to explain, and the weirdness with terrain, but it's basically the same. There's no smoke direction, I guess?

Infantry... I don't get that, they're just infantry. No armour saves, move slow, can dig in. What's hard about them?

Assault is the only fiddly bit, and we've lost a lot to be able to say "it's simpler", and, to be honest, it isn't hugely simpler, just less stuff takes part. "Bases touching" is "2-inch swing radius" in different words.

What the rules do do is less explanation of edge cases, and given how this worked out for TY (the same dozen questions being asked over and over again until someone puts it in the FAQ months later because there's enough holes to drive a tiger through), I'm not convinced that's a good thing.

Oh right.

What changed for SIF and shooting through infantry?

>email battlefront that I don't know of any local stores to pick up new rules, ask if they know of one
>Nah m8 we'll mail you one
>mails on the 12th, shows up today
>MFW battlefront has 10/10 customer service but the postman is a fucking moron

>tfw your spine is more fucked up than a drunk sophomore driving home on prom night

at least the inside is salvageable, I'll get it spiral bound at Staples and it should be fine.

Also apparently some user wanted to buy my Germans on here. I've been real busy but c3k told me about it and I didn't know how to get in contact with you. I still have all kinds of stuff and can get a list tonight. Mostly late war stuff, think tigers, 78 sturmdivision, and panthers.

Coming from a Warhammer Fantasy fan, I would count your blessings.

Wooooow. The mailman really did a number on your book...

jeezes what kind of box di they come it?
i'm reading a lot of people who have bought the new el alamein sets that their rule books are getting fucked up in the boxes
It's open fire all over again with the disintegrating rule books

The email from the interested buyer is still in the Panzerfunk email account.

Do you remember how to get into it?

came in a padded envelope.

Not that it saved the poor thing

Not really. You guys still have my private?

I think so.

I just forwarded it, so let me know if you got it.

got it. I'll get in contact with the guy tonight once I get home

I'm the interested buyer, no worries man. Take your time, I'm in no rush. A list would be great, and we can work from there.

Sending you an email in just a bit. I'm actually pulling stuff out now.

Where you located by the way? Kind of hoping I actually have someone even remotely local to play this with.

Sadly I'm in Rochester, NY. Are you even remotely close?

Western KY, although you're probably close ish to Eagles

Ouch.

email sent, brace for pics

>this isn't even all of it

Help me

>Rochester, NY
>close-ish to Eagles

Rochester is actually up near Lake Ontario, kinda far from where I am.

I'm down on Long Island.

define kind of far

I thought New York wasnt a very big state.

Assuming no traffic, it would be approximately a 6 hour drive.

I'm on an island along the Atlantic cost.

He's significantly further north and west just south of one of the Great Lakes and the Canadian border.

Didn't realize how far south the city is, to be honest.

One of the bigger ones in the north-east.

Incidentally I'll be out in NY for a few hours. It's probably the closest Eagles and I will be to each other sans some tournament or me having to fly out for a book signing.

BMP

>Diablo

Jajaja

Well if anyone wanders in the Rochester area, say so and I can likely get a game going for you all.

Well, right.

We hardly got Sigmared even if some of the internet hyperbole would make it seem like we did.

Although if you believe half the hyperbole out there right now, we're going down the path to becoming a Pokémon or Magic style card game, but with miniatures as well.

I mean fuck, even before the announcement of the Command Cards there was a vocal segment of the player base upset about the Team Yankee style unit cards for Mid-War.

It's like "cards" is a dirty word or something.

the game's magic the gathering now

How so? I'm genuinely curious why you think this.

I have never been a MTG player myself (Yu-Gi-Oh was the big thing with my nerd friends at the time) but the game play for Version 4 hardly seems like something out of a CCG.

Unit cards are shit.

They are bulky and hard to handle at worst. At best, they are less convenient than the SIMPLE ONE PAGE PRINTOUT from forcesofwar that is the current gaming standard. We are taking a step back.

Battlefront seems to want to combine the failure of Tanks with FoW v4. This isn't want the communtiy wants but Battlefront doesn't seem to care.

1. Battlefront has not corrected any glaring ambiguities of the V4 rulebook.
2. Battlefront has given no timeline on when these are going to be corrected.
3. Phil has been dismissive at attempts to get BF clarification of the rules (read the thread on blitzing and foxholes in the BF forums).
4. The 'teasers' for the Command cards look lame. "Rapid Fire" increase Tiger RoF to 3. While we don't know exactly what the deck will contain, the teaser suggests that the deck will look very similar to Tanks! cards.

Now don't get me wrong - I like V4. It cleans up some dumb rules. I especially like the change to Arty AT and the change to hit allocation. The new hit allocation rules are very nice - they are quick, clean, and easy to explain. But the rulebook has too many damn ambiguities to be playable.

I like the unit cards, but hate the idea of command and objective cards. Yeah, a single page printout is easy enough, but if they're free then there's literally no downside. What I abhor is paying for extra shit that improves the game. I understand it's optional, but I disagree with the idea itself. Just a money grab. I personally will not be using them, nor will I play with those using them.

BF isn't entirely shit.

I like the idea of the Fog of War cards. This adds an asymmetric reality to the game. In real life, you have literally no idea what your enemy's mission is. It is possible for both you and your enemy to be successful in your missions at the company level.

Here is an example during offensive operations: You are tasked with securing a fording site and your enemy is tasked with delaying you for 7 hours while preserving 30% of his force. You can both 'win', and but you are still both enemies. And that can be fun.

Unfortunately, the current objective cards look like shit. They don't look like realistic company level tasks (and FoW is a coy level game unless you're Soviet). The three spoiled cards are:

Scout the Perimeter - This is dumb. Unless you are brigade recce, you should not be 'scouting the perimeter.'

Set up Forward HQ - This is so dumb. In FoW, you ARE THE COMPANY COMMANDER. Why should I score extra points for where I decide to command? My personal location is irrelevant to bn or bde, which are the de facto consumers of my work.

Secure Major Objective: This has potential, but it would be a better objective if it included constraints for the commander (either by time or forces to preserve).

Lastly, these need to be sorted by phase of war - transitional, offensive, or defensive. It does not make sense for both me and my opponent to have offensive tasks.

If BF follows these recommendations, the Fog of War Objective Cards could be really cool and add a really great aspect to the game. Do they even need to be cards? Nah - just write them on a piece of paper for all I care.

You can't blitz and dig foxholes, it's also a move order now.

The question that was raised is that if you blitz, do you keep your foxholes? The rules state that you keep foxholes until you move, and blitzing states that you don't count as moving.

What needs to happen is that a line needs to be added to blitz to state that 'you do not count as moving for the purposes of shooting only.' BF does not seem to want to do this.

Yes. You keep gone to ground, too. Foxholes aren't positional anymore.

You can if you have stormtroopers.

We don't have an answer from Battlefront, but it seems weird that foxholes aren't positional. This is why everyone's so pissed off about V4 - there are huge holes and gaps, and BF doesn't give a shit.

There was fucking no playtest period. We want a good product and BF dropped the ball. The book wasn't even goddamn proofread.

The above two posts are the problem. No one can agree on what the rules 'mean'. One person says that foxholes aren't positional. Another says that you lose foxholes. A third says that you lose foxholes but you can dig in again because you have stormtrooper.

Rules are supposed to answer these questions for us...

>There was fucking no playtest period
Or there was and BF decided to ignore results.

That has to be a lie. Or, the playtest was just a token circlejerk for everyone to say how awesome the new rules are.

Read the "FAQ Thread" in the official forum. If there was a playtest period, it must have been a starry eyed circle-jerk. There is no way in fucking hell that all of these ambiguities, errors, and problems got through any playtest worth its keep.

So it looks like V4 didnt make soviets great again?
No fucking surprise there t b h

From speaking to playtesters, their feedback is usually ignored except for small tweaks.

I was on the fence about starting a horde Soviet T34 list, but with the silence from BF over V4 clarifications or way ahead, I have put that ambition on hold. I might end up doing TY in 6mm just for shits - because TY looks stupid in 15mm.

Tankovy stands to benefit mainly because Hen and Chicks is less severe, fast tank is good, dashing doesn't get you rekt like at the double, low AT bombardments and bombs, and heroes can use movement orders.

Yeah, but soviet infantry are pretty much fucked on getting into combat now, will have to go through several rounds of defensive fire to kill a unit, will pretty much always have teams outside the absurdly small command radius, and their already poor heavy tanks are now outright unusable.

>their already poor heavy tanks are now outright unusable
Glad i ditched this shit when i did
Fuck Battlefront i hope Poutine or Kim nukes New Zealand first

Have you seen any games of Soviet Infantry? On one hand, they get fucked from the new assault rules (defensive fire over infantry teams, shorter (4in) assault bubble, harder to use QoQ). But they also benefit massively from the new morale rules in that they don't have to roll a morale check until they have been basically annihilated.

I'm just not sure which has more pull.

They lead to rather boring games where nothing happens, so personally I'd rather axe it all.

>What needs to happen is that a line needs to be added to blitz to state that 'you do not count as moving for the purposes of shooting only.'
So, we're just deleting Seek, Strike and Destroy then?

So the optimal way to play Soviet infantry now is to form a circle and stay perfectly still for the 3 hours it takes to die?

*while shelling stuff with artillery/sniping tanks with AT guns.

Welcome to version 4!

Fresh meat?
Cards in a miniatures game is a dirty word IMO, if you have to constantly keep checking them for your unit stats. It's not the end of the world, but at least to me (subjective here) it's a really shitty mechanic. The only time I enjoyed cards in a wargame was Warhammer's spell cards - they were only used when casting the spell and they had nice art on them too.
Agree completely. I will make my own 1-page summary for whatever army lists I may play when I play v4 games...
Agree wholeheartedly here as well.
That sounds like you could just play an alternative game on the side. Not good, really... :(

Meanwhile, while taking a dump and reading Loza's book today I suddenly realized my 5 tanks 510. SPA list from Remagen with 5 tanks (3 tanks in one company, 2 in a second) doesn't work, as losing a single tank from the smaller 2 tank company automatically leads to the loss of the company.

Fuck V4 morale rules! Fuck them with a baseball bat wrapped in barbed wire!

>as losing a single tank from the smaller 2 tank company automatically leads to the loss of the company.
The Command group forms a platoon of their own in V4, so it's not as bad as it first looks, but yeah. You have small units? V4 says fuck you.

Cards, papers, or books, you have to have some place that the unit stats are easy to access Mid-game.

And army lists even with Easy Army used to be 2 or 3 pages there.

Optimal way to play any trained infantry force in V4. Which was the same way as V3 except no breakthrough guns and AT guns have a better save, so if you focus down on the enemy artillery you are free to camp.

Why the fuck would you keep gone to ground and foxholes if you blitz move

Go back to 40k

V3 lists would fit on a single piece of paper. List composition on the first half of the page, stats for taken units on the second. You'd have to be playing a really big game to need 3 pages. Now, instead, if you have a really varied force you'll need a whole stack of those cards and sift through them constantly until you know their stats by heart.
Yeah, the 2 tank company means HQ King Tiger & a single platoon with a single King Tiger.

So that means 3 options: 1) play higher points games (which doesn't work for tourney-compatible play, but can be done on occasion) 2) drop the volksgrenadiers and arty for more volksturm and nebs 3) drop down to a single company of 4 tanks and put in more support units, but that means losing two tanks = game loss unless I also bring in a panzer crew platoon which is kinda shit...

I can see why you'd keep Gone to Ground, at least; you're moving slowly and stealthily, and if you don't shoot you're still well-hidden. Scout units do this already on a bigger scale, and it doesn't seem unbelievable to picture paratroopers or soviet scouts creeping through underbrush under cover to get in better positions.

The idea of taking foxholes with you seems silly, but we hit the issue that it's the exact same criteria for both, and one seems like a perfectly reasonable thing and the other seems ridiculous.

And don't go "Play the rules as intended!". The rules are what's in the book; if they intended something else they should've written that. This is their fuckup.

So soviet infantry get to stay on the table for longer doing nothing....

Cautious movement is as thing for representing sneaking around

The fact that Phil dismissed the question as ridiculous indicates the I'm the intended rule, it's a shame they can't write

Check out the thread about Hills and Los on the forum, seems the whole player base thought the rules said one thing when Phil meant something else

>If a Team Moves using Blitz Move, but does not Move any further, it is not considered to have Moved...
>Once they have dug Foxholes, Infantry and Gun Teams have Bulletproof Cover and are Concealed until they Move.
>Teams that do not Move, Shoot, or Assault are Gone to Ground...

The relevant sections of the rules. Do you see anything there that says "But they lose foxholes and gone to ground"?

Bet you used to daisy chain observers in v2 to bring in defensive fire from units half a table away

>Cautious movement is as thing for representing sneaking around
Yeah, but this is the issue with "USE COMMON SENSE DURR" type posts. What's nonsensical about veteran troops succeeding at a weaker version of the Sneaking Around rule to get in positions while hidden? It's a very easy-to-picture scene. Think of the prisoner snatch in Band of Brothers. It's just that the same logic works for foxholes and I didn't see that scene in BoB.

But this is what gutting the rulebook's lead to. The game's not simpler, it just needs a longer FAQ.

>You'd have to be playing a really big game to need 3 pages.

What are you smoking and where can I get some? 4/20 *is* coming up soon after all.

Every army list I printed was at least 2 pages, sometimes 3.

One page for the list itself, one page for the unit stats, and either the bottom half of the second page or a third page all together for the Special Rules.

I agree that they can't write and making things more concise made them more Ambiguous

Not counting as having move doesn't change the fact that it did in fact move. The team loses the foxhole as soon as it moves, the fact that at the end of that movement it gets to count as not moving changes nothing.

Same as the reason it needs to take cross checks in a blitz

There May be some argument that they keep gone to ground and concealed in the open

>Check out the thread about Hills and Los on the forum, seems the whole player base thought the rules said one thing when Phil meant something else
I just went to check and I did find that he's explicitly stated he's not going to errata it, so fuck him, RAW, foxholes fucking teleport because who gives a shit about writing a decent set of rules.

>a picture of the M2 Portable Hole in action.

>important safety note: not to be combined with the M3 Bottomless Bag.

The issue is it's the same issue; both rely on "If a team moves using Blitz Move, but does not move any further, it is not considered to have moved". In V3 foxholes were a thing in the ground; now it's a unit status effect for "simplicity" that you lose when you move. Except, whoops, there's a rule that lets you make a move without it counting, leading to this, and a longer FAQ. It's the false economy of the Great Simplification.

Thank you!

Somebody who understands the utter fucking absurdity of a portable foxhole!

Seriously, how is it that people are so pedantic that they'll argue for the most impossible and unlikely things just because the rules don't explicitly state that it doesn't fucking work that way.

Dragging your foxholes with you is utterly ridiculous.

I don't think anyone wants the game to have that rule. We're just saying the game does have that rule. That's a fuckup of the people writing the rules, brought from the same team as "aircraft weapon means cannon", quality of quantity that's useless, blitz-deployment, SAMs that can't shoot transport helis, and probably a dozen more I can't be assed to think of right now.

Battlefront are the people writing the joke rules; we're just pointing out the fact they have. If they had a brain they'd listen to us, but instead we get "you'll be waiting a long time for such a ridiculous errata", because fixing mistakes they wrote into the rules is apparently beneath them, much like listening to their playtesters.

EVERYONE did that, at least in tournament settings. The bubble was the best part of v3.

>We're just saying the game does have that rule.

No it doesn't.

It doesn't specifically state anywhere that you keep your foxholes if you blitz or shoot and scoot.

The lack of a rule expressly preventing it, is NOT the same as there being a rule that explicitly allows it.

Blitzing (and remaining still after) doesn't count as Moving.

You lose foxholes when you Move.

Where is the ambiguity? It's open and shut; you haven't Moved, you don't lose foxholes.

You would absolutely lose foxholes if you shoot-and-scoot, because that doesn't say you don't count as Moving (and in fact describes the movement as a "Move", with capitals, again zero ambiguity).

The issue isn't that this is vague, the issue is that it's dumb, which I don't think anyone's disputing.

Beep beep

Yeah, it's dumb. Everyone's said that. Do you have an argument that the dumb thing isn't exactly what the rules say, though? Because I can't see one. It shouldn't be in there, but it is.

You can also blit through a minefield because you dont count as moving. Minefields only activate when you "move into them." When you blitz you arent moving.

But you cant have it both ways. Either you havr teleporting foxholes or Seek Strike and destroy is useless (because you cant shoot and scoot if you have moved)

I am a complete rookie to FoW but a 40k vet. I just moved and FoW seems to be pretty popular in my new area and I have been told the most common era is far and away late war.

I'd like to start a German army of tanks backed up by some mechanized infantry and maybe some light artillery. However, with the new edition I have absolutely no idea how starting works. It's only mid war right now or something? Do I just start late war and play 3rd edition, is that even a thing anymore?

Can someone explain this a little clearer?

>It's only mid war right now or something?
Mid War is receiving a full reboot with new stats, point values, and rules. Late War and Early War have only received new rules, they retain (most) of their old stats and points costs. There's a free book for using EW/LW in V4, and another one that explains how to translate the special rules.

>Do I just start late war and play 3rd edition, is that even a thing anymore?
Late War is still a thing, and can be played either in V3 (since it's not illegal to use old rules) or in V4.

Does minefield say "Move into" or does it say "Enter"? Difficult terrain always gets rolled, for example, because that happens when you "Enter", even if you don't enter it by moving.

Thank you, that makes sense.

Minefield says (pg 78) Moves. With a capital M.

Blitz also stops you from needing to do a cross check if you start your turn in the difficult terrain... as you arent moving if you blitz.

/NVA/

>tfw like the aesthetic and playstyle of the Nazis
>blonde haired blue eyed
>want to start an army but afraid that I'll look like a stormfag

You're overthinking this.

Play the army you want.

Early and late war will be changed eventually to the mid war style. You can start building and painting though it's unlikely any of your units will become unusable.

Blitz move has caused so many headaches. They should've just put "for the purposes of shooting" in there to make it clear. Or "If you pass your skill check you can fire at your stationary ROF". Has the intended effect with no weird knock-on.

Look look. It's very simple. If you win, your army will be defeated in a few years/months/days anyway. If you lose, then some heroic allied forces brought down some vile nazis.

Win win.

>Look look
>Win win
I wonder who could be behind this post