Dex increases damage, armor/evasion, hit chance, critical chance, movement/action/casting speed...

This. Acrobats may not be swole, but they are fucking ripped.

I want my cake and eat it, too!

>If she's in her late 20s, then as far as Japan is concerned she's Christmas cake.
You forgot to mention that culturally Japan never grew out of its feudal era, and basically, Japanese are a bunch of backwards bumfucks.
kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/

They aren't stacked meatbeasts either. An acrobat, archer and so on should have strength, but not to strongman amounts.

So what you're saying is that a nimble acrobat should be reasonably expected to be more tanky than an ogre in fullplate and deal equal amounts, if not more, damage than a giant with a maul the size of a house?

OP here, I promise to stop making these threads if you promise to stop replying in them and feeding me delicious upset posts

Yes, they can be. This lady here is not swole by any means.

The reason for the split is that you might want to build a gymnast character. If there was a singular Strength/Dexterity stat than anyone building Laura Zeng or Simone Biles would end up with an identical stat to someone trying to build Arnold Schwarzenegger or Dolph Lundgren. More to the point, it would mean that if my Laura Zeng got into an arm-wrestling match with your Arnold Schwarzenegger, she'd have an equal chance at winning to him. Likewise the carrying capacity would be the same.

That doesn't seem incongruous to you?

The issue is that Dex does everything, be a nimble acrobat and be of use outside of battle (or use environmental stuff like cutting/shooting down chandeliers).

So, anyone got the sauce?
Is this hentai? Tell me it's hentai.

>That doesn't seem incongruous to you?
I'm willing to suspend my disbelief. Realistically you'd have to measure the strength and flexibility of each individual muscle. I've met people who could bench twice as much as me but struggled with half my leg press weight.

>Realistically

See my point about D&D and whether or not it's trying to be a Real Life Simulator.

>great tits
To be honest, they look more like pecs.

Yes, I agree with you.

Wellt here's definitely pecs under them, but the lovely sacks of flesh and nourishing milk glands are also tied down. Help her out of those uncomfortable bandages and massage those sore udders!

So to balance the game, you give the one guys that are good at everything outside of battle usefulness in battle, while giving the other guys that are good in battle nothing for outside of it? That's not balancing, that is playing favourites, and what exactly is the issue with having a character that does little direct damage, but can do a shitload of stuff in the meanwhile that others can't? Like using the environment to their favour, or tripping enemies, or other supporting maneuvers.

>Nearly every physical activity requires fine motor control

Literally what? Fine motor control is for things like writing, buttoning a shirt, or cutting up a chicken breast without chopping your fingers off.

Running, swinging a sword (not precisely), raising a shield up, jumping, punching, and myriad other adventuring-type actions would all fall under gross motor skill

When was the last time you saw a champion weightlifter winning a fencing competition? Not to say that champion fencers aren't strong, but there's clearly more to it than raw strength and endurance.

Also "wholly insignificant carry weight"? What kind of shitty games are you playing that carrying capacity is insignificant?

This Dex does all those things because dex is about fine motor control, and strength is about raw power. You get higher crit chance because you can find the weaknesses in the enemy's armor and target it, instead of bashing them in. Bonus AC comes from AC being your ability to negate hits not literally armor, so a dex character and a str character can both get high chances to avoid damage but the GM can fluff it from person to person.

If you feel like investing in Str doesnt give your players enough in return, maybe build some puzzles that require a combination of athleticism and intelligence to complete. Portal 2 coop is a good place to start: one player has to direct the other and keep things moving, while player 2 has various physical trials they have to overcome, involving moving heavy objects around and scaling sheer surfaces, all to reach the key to beating the puzzle.

For ranged stuff, wis or int could give modifiers to your ability to hit, but ultimately your ability to control the weapon masterfully is relegated to dex. Adding in int/wis checks to ranged attacks would just complicate and slow the game down. Maybe feats or archetypes could be used to change the stat you roll to hit, like in

Make swimming, running, climbing, lifting, tossing for distance or breaking down shit dependant on Strength.
Boom, done, now get the fuck outta here.

This is why I like GURPS

ST - Raw damage, lifting ability, carry weight, wrestling ability, body mass (HP), etc.
DX - Determines speed (along with the HT stat), base stat for a majority of physical skills (thus increases hit chance, crit chance, etc.), balance, etc. If you want good skills you want high DX.

With DX, you can technically deal more damage because you can buy your weapon skills a little higher and thus have a better chance of stabbing the vitals (in GURPS, you can call hit location). But ST is 10 points cheaper so you would have higher raw damage.

It's perfectly viable to play a high strength low dexterity character if you are playing a real bruiser with a lot of armor. Don't expect to hit as often, but when you do: you really hurt!

Where the fuck's the sauce family?

>started trying to think of ways around this
>started with the D&D cross-edition staples and was killing a few sacred cows along the way
>boiled the stats down by combining STR/CON and removing CHA by spreading it across INT/WIS
>stats use the 3-18 range, stick closer to 8-13, and use a 3d6 roll-under-stat system
>skills work more like Traveller, where you get them at 0, if you don't have a skill it gives you a penalty, etc
>begin to snowball into every other area
Goddamnit what did you do to me OP, what system am I accidentally making an exact copy of?

I found the sauce after searching for 30 minutes it's called [SHD (Buchou Chinke)] Haijo DS Chou 2 (Gouma Reifu Den Izuna 2 / Izuna 2: The Unemployed Ninja Returns)

Here's a link
e-hentai.org/g/401426/dacf2868a3/

>while giving the other guys that are good in battle nothing for outside of it?

That's a lie. Strength governs the Athletics skills (Climbing, Jumping, Swimming) as well as lifting and carrying capacity. Strength can also be used in place of Charisma on Intimidate checks when you are trying to use the threat of physical violence to intimidate a foe.

Inside of battle, Strength is usually better than Dexterity for attack and damage because Strength-based weapons tend to have larger damage dice already, which Strength then adds to.

>Like using the environment to their favour

Anyone can do that with Strength too. Strength would govern things like, say, knocking out a support beam with an axe-swing to bring a bunch of crates falling down on your enemy; or jumping onto a swinging chandelier. Strength is also the main determination in grappling/wrestling checks.

The fact that you're an uncreative poncy fuck doesn't mean that everyone else is.

>Strength governs the Athletics skills (Climbing, Jumping, Swimming) as well as lifting and carrying capacity.
In practice, these skills are actually extremely situational.

>Strength can also be used in place of Charisma on Intimidate checks when you are trying to use the threat of physical violence to intimidate a foe.
Where is this written and in which edition?

>In practice, these skills are actually extremely situational.

It's up to the player to find a use for them just as much as the DM to ensure that there's a use for them.

>Where is this written and in which edition?

In 3.5: DMG pg. 33
In 5th: PHB pg. 175

>Where is this written and in which edition?
In the part on skills where it talks about them being able to be used with attributes other than the one listed alongside them. I'm pretty sure 3.5 used the exact example user said, I didn't play 4th and 5th mentions it in the PHB, page 175.

Fuck thy mother.

Your efforts will not go unappreciated.

>It's up to the player to find a use for them just as much as the DM to ensure that there's a use for them.
They have no mechanical use in combat, and their application out of combat as an exploratory tool is a questionable benefit at best. Odds are, you're the only one who bothered to invest into that shit, and you'll be placing yourself in danger ingame and pissing everyone off OOC if you decide to bugger off on a solo adventure.

You have to rely on your DM to create situations in which specifically those skills are the solution. The player can't do shit to make them useful.

If you are playing a game where you aren't regularly running, jumping, swimming OR climbing, you are either playing a shit-tier ""adventure"" campaign where every problem can be solved by killing or, at worst, dispelling it, or you are playing a setting where physical capabilities aren't that important in the first place. Don't complain that strength is rarely used in officeworkers: the stapeling

Addendum: It's probably somewhere in 4th, 3.0, and Pathfinder, too, but I can't be bothered to look them up.

While technically both times it's a Variant rule, it's worth pointing out that proficiencies in AD&D 2nd Edition, and feats and multiclassing in 5th Edition, are both also optional variant rules. But I don't know of any DMs who don't run with them. Likewise, I don't know of any DMs who are so married to the rules that they won't allow you to use a different ability score for a skill check if reasonably justifiable - such as, for example, a half-orc using Strength rather than Charisma on an Intimidate check.

btfo by the post above

Are you saying you wouldn't want to be crushed by those pecs?

>They have no mechanical use in combat

Well that's a fucking lie. While it's something of a bad example because my Thief character in HotDQ/RoT had a 10 Strength and a 20 Charisma, she nevertheless made CONSTANT use of her Athletics proficiency and ability to climb and jump like a motherfucker in combat.

The ability to Dash as a bonus action and the ability to Climb at full speed was more useful to me than Sneak Attack desu.

>and their application out of combat as an exploratory tool is a questionable benefit at best

Your DM and/or DMing style is bad and you should feel bad. Have you never watched Indiana Jones, for Chrissake?

>had a 10 Strength and a 20 Charisma

*meant to say 10 Strength and 20 Dexterity, mea culpa. Regardless the point is that the Athletics skill was of incredible use to me.

>They're backwards because they reject feminism

lel

>read: i spent all my actions running around like a retard while the other players actually fought the enemies

>They have no mechanical use in combat
Climbing a huge opponent by using its fur/horns/whatever. Using a table to springboard off it and over the heads of the dudes between you to get at the squishy wizard in the back. The fact that (in 5E at least) athletics is used for things like pushing, bull-rushing and grappling. Picking up and throwing a motherfucker. We could continue. Get creative.

>You have to rely on your DM to create situations in which specifically those skills are the solution.
Are we ignoring the simple point of fact that if your DM can't incorporate a player's schtick into the game after approving said schtick than the DM isn't doing their fucking job? This is the easiest fucking one to incorporate. Add some objects to your dungeon rooms, have fights in non-empty chambers, and learn to use some vertical elements in your level design that aren't designed explicitly to be impassible for non-flyers.

They're backwards because they reject personal achievement in favor of things like social status, and in general Japanese are collectivistic as fuck and are perfectly fine to give up their entire life in servitude to a corporation, just like serfs gave up their lives to serve a lord.

But nice bait, made me answer.

>OP gets increasingly desperate as he keeps getting BTFO'd
Truly, I don't think anyone can recover from such a ravaged asshole.

>Climbing a huge opponent by using its fur/horns/whatever.
There aren't any rules for doing that by default, so the DM will have to make up the rules for you himself, which contradicts the claim that the player can just use them himself. Or he might decide not to bother, to spare everyone's time and to tell you to just attack normally. Either way, it's not up to the player.

>Are we ignoring the simple point of fact that if your DM can't incorporate a player's schtick into the game after approving said schtick than the DM isn't doing their fucking job?
Read above. You lost track of this conversation pretty quickly.

No, I spent all my time getting into position for advantageous attacks (which sadly were not always sneak attacks when they should have been, stupid drow sunlight sensitivity), or zipping around the enemies to grab the things my party needed, or climbing out of reach and getting the enemies following me distracted, or climbing INTO reach so as to attack enemies we otherwise couldn't, or doing any number of other such things that kept the fights mobiles.

It's like you people never watched Aladdin or played Prince of Persia and don't appreciate what it means to be a thief. The thing is, you gotta keep one jump ahead.

>There aren't any rules for doing that by default

BULLLSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!

I know this very well because climbing on larger creatures was my go-to response for dealing with dragons.

5e DMG page 271, motherfucker.

>There aren't any rules for doing that by default, so the DM will have to make up the rules for you himself, which contradicts the claim that the player can just use them himself.
Pic related.

>Or he might decide not to bother, to spare everyone's time and to tell you to just attack normally. Either way, it's not up to the player.
I could do that for literally any part of the game, up to and including spellcasters casting spells that aren't direct damage. That doesn't make it an argument worth considering, it makes me a shit DM.

No, seriously, though, watch Aladdin throughout this video. This is my main inspiration for what Dexterity-based characters do. Almost none of it has anything to do with Strength, and indeed would be pretty difficult to imagine a swole person doing.

youtube.com/watch?v=fcTC7RkmHac

This, seriously. The guy used 70 lb barbells. That's not something you just do.

That's pretty cool. What other niche applications does the skill have, and in which splatbook are they hidden in?

Now there's a long and awkward title if ever there was one. Cheers, user.

Hang on, this conversation actually got away from me for a moment and I forgot that I was supposed to be defending Strength, not Dexterity. Let's try that again, but we'll use the same video for example of Strength.

- 0:18: Jumps over the guard (Athletics)
- 0:27: Climb the stack of barrels (Athletics)
- 0:29: Pushes a barrel down on the guards (shove)
- 0:45: Jump into window (Athletics, aided by Abu, who also jumped)
- 1:20: Wins an opposed Strength check to get Abu back from the jewelry merchant
- 1:38: Jump onto the coal-walker (Athletics) to avoid taking fire damage from the hot coals
- 1:56: Climbs a rope (Athletics)
- 2:09: JUMP! (Athletics)

See? There's lots to do.

The DMG isn't a splatbook, and climbing onto a larger creature isn't a niche application given that this game is dungeons and DRAGONS. In a typical campaign, you'll be encountering giant creatures all the time. Often they will even have the Giant type.

>TOO OLD

I actually really like how this works in 5e

It means that a character built around grappling doesn't immediately lose all value when faced with a creature too big to grapple

Incidentally, if we assume that "One Jump Ahead" takes place in real time - i.e, the events it take the length of the song to complete, so 2 minutes 20 seconds, then this means that over the course of about 23 rounds, Aladdin made 8 non-attack Strength-based checks.

Tell me again about how it's "niche".

>posts a video of an animated film
>spends like 8 posts droning on about how it would work in d&d
Any time someone compares a tabletop game (especially D&D) to a movie or game it just makes me cringe.

A quality user

You're rather missing the point - that the video provides a series of good examples of things you can do, in combat, with Strength, other than attacking. It's by no means "niche".

The point isn't to figure out the specific DCs or Aladdin's Athletics modifier or level or whatever. It's just to show off that the only reason to claim that Strength is good for nothing but combat, is if you're an uncreative or uninspired fuck.

>muh typical campaign
What a shit argument. Literally anecdote.

Well, if the basic facts of how D&D is intended to be played don't work for you, I did in fact provide additional, non-niche applications using simply the stuff in the PHB here, You're an uncreative fuck. Sorry.

If all of those are Athletics, what's Acrobatics for?

Who the fuck knows. Skills as a whole are such a throwaway mechanic it's not even funny.

Hang on, I'll watch the video again and make another list of Dexterity-based checks (excluding attack rolls or suppositions about armor class). I don't mind. Love this movie.

- Before the song begins: Steal a loaf of bread (Sleight of Hand, albeit a failure: He took the bread successfully but was spotted)
- 0:16: hop on top of barrel without losing balance (not high enough to constitute a jump)
- 0:20: Steal the guy's sash (Sleight of Hand)
- 0:45: Slip through the (comparatively) tiny window (Acrobatics)
- 1:03: Avoid taking damage from a fall by landing on the canvas (Acobatics)
- 1:04: hide behind the strongman (Stealth)
- 1:11: Move across the flock of sheep (difficult terrain) at full speed (Acrobatics)
- 1:17: Avoid taking damage from what I would rule to be the equivalent of caltrops (Reflex save)
- 1:30: Tumble through and past a bunch of threatened squares without getting attacked (Acrobatics)
- 1:34: A repeat of the above plus probably using Dexterity (Athletics) to escape a grapple
- 1:37: Stealth check to hide (failed)
- 1:52: Abu escaping threatened squares without getting attacked
- 2:02: More Acrobatics to escape attacks
- 2:05: This isn't an Acrobatics check as the attacks were made, they just missed.

You would like ORE, where "Body" covers most of the things you listed under "dexterity", and "Coordination" is almost exclusively used for activities that require physical coordination, like dancing, balance and aiming and firing guns.

>Izuna the unemployed ninja
>Turned into a fucking hentai

Tell me it's fan made.

Gurps has it much, much worse than D&D. DX is 10x the god stat that Dex is.

...I did that after about half a year of working out.

I like to extend Strength's functionality instead of cutting back on Dex. Dex gives you precision + dodge, Strength gives you damage + HP, and each have their own application to skills (where, admittedly, Dex could use a bit of cutdown; I'd probably put lockpicking and other "manual dexterity" stuff into INT instead of Dex, just so pianists and surgeons aren't also stealth acrobats).

>STR
You can hit harder.
>CON/VIT
You can resist hits harder.
>DEX
You can hit more and more accurately and avoid enemy attacks more and hit vulnerable spots and it's completely essential for any form of combat and also out of combat.

>martials being jelly of each other
>meanwhile wizards reimain the true masters
As it should. Int4lyfe

>Str
you can hit harder
>hp
you can get hurt worse before you give up and die
>Fighter level
you can hit more often and more accurately and avoid enemy attacks better, hit vulnerable spots specifically, and generally kick ass. Its completely essential for any form of combat.

Dex does not make you good with a sword the same way experience does. Have you seen a martial arts master? In real life? I'm talking those old tai chi guys who can barely walk, and look all frail, but then they do the exhibition and you're scared of how powerful their chi is.

I'm gonna dignify you with the response that you don't deserve to be dignified with a response.

It's because you're playing shitty games where carry weight, encumbrance, and fatigue doesn't come up.

In a good game, strength will matter.

I can only guess, but I think it was done so that you could have characters that focus on strength and do a lot of damage - but characters that use dex to focus on other skills, and don't have the class for good armor, were given some extra buffs to be more survivable and more useful in a fight.

Of course, now you can have both strength and dexterity in one character if you're willing to dump some other stats.

Dexterity is muscle memory and point strength.

Strength is full body and core strength.

Skill and motor control is level and proficiency bonus.

>If she's in her double digits, then as far as Japan is concerned she's Christmas cake.
FTFY

All of which are fairly shit since MAJIIQUE and TOOLS, unless the acceleration from running is based on str, and not fixed like in dee and dee.

Source? Haven't found anything

> Anyone can do that with Strength too. Strength would govern things like, say, knocking out a support beam with an axe-swing to bring a bunch of crates falling down on your enemy; or jumping onto a swinging chandelier.
Which isn't in the rules, save for 5th ed, and even then only for some actions.

>Running, swinging a sword (not precisely), raising a shield up, jumping, punching, and myriad other adventuring-type actions would all fall under gross motor skill
Doing at least 3 of your examples needs technique to be as efficient as possible, so this is just nonsense.
runnersworld.com/run-faster/proper-running-form
gmb.io/jump-tutorial/
I think fencing and martial arts are self-evident here

> Which isn't in the rules
> 'uuuuuuuh the rules say you can't use Strength for this obviously strength-related task, so I'm not going to allow it'

Yeah I used to use 50 lb dumbbells and I don't even use them anymore. I could probably use a 70 lb by now.

>tfw normies think deadlifting 400 lbs is superhuman

That's nice. You could've probably ended fights much quicker by dropping enemies HP to 0. Applying that juicy 20 DEX to do at least +5 attacks and at least +5 damage.

The flip-flop is as over the top as the scene itself. You'd make a good sophist.

>You could've probably ended fights much quicker by dropping enemies HP to 0

I mean, maybe? But not necessarily, and there's nothing more boring than just standing still and making an attack.

In fairness, as I showed here, , there's plenty to use for Dexterity as well. More to the point I didn't even overlap once between Strength and Dexterity.

Yeah, we're not talking some glorified freeform "lite rules" here, those books are here for reason.

>But not necessarily, and there's nothing more boring than just standing still and making an attack.
Yeah, but it's actually incetivised by the system, since you give your enemies less rolls to crit/damage you, and less time to stall. You also spend less money/spellslots on healing, as a result.

Well, I think all of the jumps could easily be reasoned as Acrobatics checks, and just compare the amount of shit done by Dexterity and by Strength.
I'm starting to have Exalted flashbacks.

And the rules say that the GM is free to modify the rules at will to improve the experience for the players.

Any system that requires the GM to throw out the rules or invent rules has failed as a system.
Yes, the GM can fix anything. But if the GM fixes something, that means it was broken.

And that is what gave way to that cancer: "Hey, just chuck the rules away, the books allow you to!", rule 0 fallacy, etc. Nice fucking buy, thank you, WotC.

A mistake if I've ever seen one.

that's how you know the system is made by a manlet