/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

To this day the best husbando ever put out by WW/OPP is still Divis Mal:^)

Just two weeks until Anthology.
Get hype!

>Death of the Author

I don't think you know what the above even means

I see nothing wrong with hunter

>No, in Awakening, the symbolic is still open to interpretation

Not really, the Supernal is absolute. The only interpretive part is how you incorporate them or process the symbols as they are.

The belief aspect is based around Ascension, not so much for Awakening. Both are all about creativity and the imagination, I can agree on that. We're talking about wizards here, after all.

Basically, that authorial intent doesn't matter. That's where a lot of "between the lines" type symbolism comes from, right? That and psychoanalytic masturbation, of course.

I'm not even sure what you're getting at.

That in a lot of cases, people pull symbolism out of their asses IRL. Whether or not it's supernal, well, that's another question.

The 'Caine vs Archmage' / 'Luna vs Archmage' polls were more entertaining.

Of course the Archmage won for both.

strawpoll.me/12812374

>Luna vs Archmage

I was somewhat amazed by the zealous werefags that took Luna's side without even putting in a little decent effort to back up their reasoning as to why, which they didn't even have.
I mean, Imperial Mysteries went out of its way to mention a god of equivalent rank that got thrown down by ancient wizards. It's not far fetched to assume a super-mage could do the same.

At times it felt like they weren't even werefags to begin with, rather people trying to spite Mage by using any conceivable leverage they could find.

Definitely masqueradefags

>I use Transfiguration to make Luna my waifu forever and ever and ever
>"NUH UHH"
>I use Honorary Rank to slap Luna and forcer her to make me a sandwich
>"NUH UHH"
>I accuse you of being a biased dingleberry
>"nah ur jus stooped

The whole Luna vs Archmage argument in one post

To be fair, the mass collective of Mage-haters never bother to even touch books minimally related to Ascension / Awakening, out of fear for the safety of their biases.

Personally, I think that if a mage can fae better than a changeling, or spirit better than a werewolf, that's a design misstep. Mages should be superior in their own areas of expertise, but not be able to outdo other splats at their own game.

Mages can't.

Archmages can.

>Not really, the Supernal is absolute. The only interpretive part is how you incorporate them or process the symbols as they are.
The Supernal literally cannot be perceived outside of someone's personal interpretation, because it's not designed to be comprehended by humans. Normal Mages get the interpretations provided by their respective Watchtowers (and ostensibly therefore the Oracles who created them), while Archmasters get the interpretations provided by the Lustrums they create.

I'd cut archmages out of the setting entirely, if I had my choice. You want to understand all the mysteries of the Supernal? Ascend. The only thing I'd allow to circumvent that is building another Celestial Ladder.

The Luna vs. Archmage argument was as follows:
>I use Transfiguration to make Luna my waifu
>Good luck, she uses Transfiguration to permanently transform you into a newt while you're still gathering Quintessences, because you need preptime and she doesn't.
>Nuh-uh, I already have Quintessences!
>How?
>I just do! Shut up! REEE

How does Luna even know what the Archmage is up to? Is she omniscient?

Watchfulness and Protection are two of her roles, so yes. Luna has a hell of a lot of Influences.

This is assuming the other Archmages don't figure out what you're doing and re-enact the torture scene from Reservoir Dogs on you for trying to break the Pax before Luna notices.

Luna can't just detect the Archmage, that's called fan fiction.

Transfiguration EFFECTS are permanent, the Archmage only need to enchant himself to 'dominate all spirits' to beat her.

So what I'm hearing is "if you want to make Luna your waifu, you're better off courting her or using your incredible powers to catch her eye the way Father Wolf did rather than trying to magic her into being your bitch".

This seems entirely reasonable and thematic to me, and actually brings in the "Your Imperial Arcana are broader in possible application than her Influences" angle as an advantage.

>Luna can't just detect the Archmage, that's called fan fiction.
>Perform any effect imaginable relating to watchfulness, guardianship, warding, or protection, whenever she wants, just by spending some Essence
>Can't just detect when someone is trying to fuck with her and stop them

>the way Father Wolf did
We know for a fact he was a Pangean mage, who's to say he didn't just use magic to win.

>Mages should be superior in their own areas of expertise, but not be able to outdo other splats at their own game.

Fate and Spirit are both an Arcanum, of course they're superior in their areas of expertise, you dumb fuck.

It just so happens that they overlap with other splats, get over it.

>watchfulness

Yeah, I guess it's as easy as staying in your Golden Road / Chantry or hiding from the Moon. Transfiguration also can't go further than sensory range, buddy.

You need to step the fuck down with your obsessive misinformation.

I still say fate is the most bullshit arcanum, and i'm a magefag. And death is still weak.

Normally, I'd agree with you. But if there's one thing you don't do more than you don't stick your dick in crazy, it's try to wife said crazy.

And as an aside, we all know what happened to Father Wolf. Not really a result of Luna's crazy, but still.

Beating Luna as an Archmaster of Spirit isn't hard as long as you're of Gnosis nine and above.

How far do you think sensory range is for the fucking moon, considering her original job was "protect the earth from impossible gribblies from beyond space and time"?

And how are you gathering all the chantries you need from inside your Golden Road, and without sending agents out (which she could then detect)?

But then you won't have magefags acting out their vaguely Oedipian fantasies on Becky and Stacy from school

Death is great, bite me.

Prime is the weakest.

Hence the "if you want to make Luna your waifu".

It's a very big if.

You could try to Mind her into being less crazy, I guess, but good luck with that considering she has a Madness Influence.

Universal Countermagic.

>cast Spirit Transfiguration on self
>permanent ability to command all spirits with voice and will alone
>what can Luna even do

kek

Archmages can theoretically beat any non-Supernal god in a 1v1 fight if they're obsessed enough. You can't go against this, not when there's literally an example of this happening in Imperial Mysteries with the Mother of Fire, who is of the same damn rank as Luna.

>if you're fortunate enough to reach ten dots of Spirit
If you reach ten dots of Spirit you've achieved Siddhi Ascension, so sure, do whatever the fuck you want at that point.

If you tried to leave her for being too crazy she would probably just make you as crazy so that you match.

Or some other crazier shit that I'm not crazy enough to think of.

You are still forgetting every other goddamn Archmage, the God-Machine, Helios, the True Fae, the Exarchs, and whoever represents the other splats coming together to destroy your asshole for breaking the Pax.

Normie Mages can still outdo the other gamelines relatively easily without being an Archmage, user.

Acanthus are better Changelings
Moros are better Sin-Eaters
Thyrsus are better Uratha

Why do you think they're hated so much?

It doesn't matter, the capability is still there.

The Pax was one of the best additions to the lore though, unlike Ascension where you have super-wizards running around and you question why the universe even exists as it is.

If you aren't attracted to crazy (as well as absurd mood swings, thank you Change Influence), you probably aren't even interested in trying this in the first place.

I don't think anybody's disputed that Archmages hypothetically can make Luna their bitch, assuming nobody does anything to stop them.

>get over it.
So translation 'stop not liking the things I like'? I mean I get why the devs did it and everything but that doesn't change the fact that people are going to not like it and think it was a stupid move.

What could one expect from husbandoing Helios?

Prime's abilities are largely supplementary. While it's handy, it can't really carry you like basically any of the other Arcana can.

Sensory range for Luna? Anything under the moon. She also can't reach into your Golden Road by definition of how it works.

The Archmage is for all intents and purposes untouchable by Her Grace, unless of course the Seeker summons her into his Chantry to begin with, which is something they can actually do.

In this sense, the Archmaster actually has a better a preemptive strike than she does.

If we're going into "I already cast this effect on myself", I'm pretty sure Luna's Change Influence (or Madness Influence) allows her to have already cast "immunity to being subject to any effect for any longer than she feels like".

That's not the kind of Change she has purview over, I would have expected you to know this.

You're going into plot-device territory now, in which case I might as well say the Supernal trumps everything related to the Shadow.

>I make this up with nothing to back it up other than "change" being a purview of Luna

Holy hell, you werefags will literally go to any fucking length.

>You're going into plot-device territory now
Welcome to the Practice of Transfiguration, which is literally "I pit my unstoppable plot device against your unstoppable plot device", and gets retarded immediately.

>I don't think anybody's disputed that Archmages hypothetically can make Luna their bitch
The werefags did, vigorously. And then once that failed they tried to attack the hypothetical angle, saying that since it was all in theory it didn't really matter, even though the whole argument was just hypothetical in the first place. They also tried to throw all the Imperial Practices out the window at one point, saying that Dave's words as the dev were meaningless despite him being a largely accepted authority.

They got pretty desperate.

Madness is a facet of Mind, how does it protect her from something relating to Spirit? Her purview covers Madness, Change and the Moon.

I would allow it if only because I'm an exalted fag and one of her canon abilities over there is to just ignore shaping affects when she doesn't feel like it anymore.

>Anything under the moon
So the solution is to attack from above the moon?

Except the difference being that the Arcana outstrip the relative Purviews when it comes to Transfiguration, not that spirits even have access to it.

The Arcana are all encompassing while Purviews are rather limited in scope. An Archmaster of Spirit could re-write Luna's ban, or if he has Spirit 10 could enforce it by slapping her.

Her Change influence is built around the Moon never staying in one state and generally being changing and impermanent, so please explain how this is completely outside of her themes.

If anything, making sure she can still Change as she likes is the MOST thematic application of her themes.

I don't know a lot about Luna.

Somebody fill me in pls.

Or just not be under the moon? Or be in a place she explicitly cannot reach? Like Golden Roads and Chantries?

She isn't omniscient, and not as far reaching as you seem to think.

Okay so what you're saying here is that you can teleport above the moon and she will never find you.

>Her Change influence is built around the Moon never staying in one state and generally being changing and impermanent

When werefags don't even know where her Purviews correspond to. Amazing. That's not the basis for her purview, you dumb fuck. That's her goddamn Ban.

>Madness is a facet of Mind, how does it protect her from something relating to Spirit? Her purview covers Madness, Change and the Moon.
"Imperial" influences don't subdivide things the way the Arcana do, is why. Her effects aren't divided between Spirit and Mind, they're divided between Madness and Change (and the Moon, and Warding, etc etc.)

That's literally the entire basis for why Archmages can do things she can't do.

Madness isn't "this specific subset of Mind-category effects" it's "this specific subset of all effects, irrespective of Arcana, that has to do with Madness (but only Madness)."

You're just proving his point, and another above.

The Arcana are too broad in comparison to Purviews.

The thing is, the Archmaster comes into the fight with "I can do any bullshit I can think of that thematically relates to Spirit (or Mind, or whatever)" and Luna comes into the fight with "I can do any bullshit I can think of that thematically relates to Change (or Madness, or whatever)", and the unstoppable force immediately runs up against an opposing unstoppable force.

Luna wouldn't be able to even consider harming an Archmaster with Spirit 10 via the 'Honorary Rank' Attainment.

They are by definition above her in status.

Mom they're fighting again!

The only part of her purview that has any leeway at all is the Change aspect, and even then it only relates to her actual responses.

By this logic she can change anything that is by definition able to change. This would invalidate the entire line of Werewolf if that were the case.
Her 'Change' is based around life, not any-and-all aspects of it.

The range of effects is broader, but takes longer to pull off, is more difficult to pull off, and is no more powerful.

The Archmaster's infinite subset of potential spells is broader than a Rank 8 spirit's infinite subset of potential "spells", but that doesn't mean much as long as the spirit can think of a counter-effect that relates to their Influence.

Your Spirit Arcanum lets you smack Luna with things that have nothing to do with Madness, Change, Warding, Protection, the Moon, Watchfulness, etc, because her Influences don't cover that.

It doesn't let you automatically beat something her Influences DO cover, and being a Rank 8 spirit she has lots of Influences and they're very broad (not 1/10th of the universe broad, but broad).

Already been brought up. People refuse to concede to canon mechanics.

They must be real far up Luna's smooch to be in so much denial.

>and is no more powerful.

The Arcana are certainly more powerful than the Purviews, sorry. Spirit will bitchslap any-and-all god while the gods themselves can only do so much.

>By this logic she can change anything that is by definition able to change
Broadening the definition of your purview (including from literal to metaphorical), along with adding other purviews, is HOW you advance in Rank.

Luna is at one of the highest Ranks it's possible to attain. She can do anything relating to Change.

kek

Luna has no purview of spirit, she is fucked against an Archmaster of Spirit.

>Warding, Protection,
Not her purviews buddy

>The Arcana are certainly more powerful than the Purviews, sorry.
Please explain how the effects produced by an Imperial Arcanum are more powerful than "This Influence at this rank duplicates the effect of any Imperial Practice, up to and including the most powerful one".

>She can do anything relating to Change.
Yeah, corresponding to her purview. She can't change literally anything.

Duplicating in the sense that it can achieve anything relating to its influence =/= potency of the spell in-question.

>Not her purviews buddy
Please provide a source for where we got a complete and exhaustive list of her purviews, because I can give you a source for Warding being one of them.

>Yeah, corresponding to her purview. She can't change literally anything.
Her purview IS Change!

Half of those aren't her purviews according to Imperial Mysteries.

Spirit on its own should be fairly evident as to how much more powerful the Arcana. Something capable of altering purviews? Yeah, the Arcana are leagues above the gods in terms of potential.

In all honesty here, I fail to see how 'Change' is going to trump 'Spirit'

The Archmaster could literally change 'Change' to 'does nothing at all' and make Luna night useless.

Every single one of you faggots are literally killing this general.

Transfiguration also induces permanent effects to boot, meaning the Seeker could have his voice re-write Influences on a whim, while his gestures could dominate the respective gods.

The question of whether or not an Archmage could take on Luna and win comes down to "Yes, if he's willing to go through all the hard work and preparations necessary."

Luna doesn't exactly prepare, as she can do it off the bat. Yet the Archmaster that DOES prepare will win by sheer oomph alone.

Potency is basically irrelevant once you hit Transfiguration, except for the reflexive Stamina+Powerstat roll to resist, and Luna's Influence pool is even more stupidly huge than an Archmage's casting pool thanks to the way Spirit stats work.

Now that I've got the book open, she also apparently automatically gets an exceptional success whenever she uses an Influence, which is handy.

>[on top of their dicepool] assume that a Godlike spirit gains additional, automatic successes equal to its Rank for any roll relating to its purview (or additional successes equal to Rank-5 for anything else).

I bet you think Change means literally anything here. By that logic she should be rank 10.

It also begs the question as to why Helios isn't higher rank than Gaia, considering the sun > earth.

>Half of those aren't her purviews according to Imperial Mysteries.
Imperial Mysteries does not give an exhaustive list of her purviews (or any list of her purviews). Have any of you retards even read the book you're convinced let Mages beat everything automatically?

So why is this even a debate if an Archmaster is capable of re purposing Luna whenever the fuck he/she wants? Assuming he/she casts Transfiguration.

because Luna can do exactly the same tier of effects, just on a smaller subset of concepts.

Also because the Archmaster has to do a ton of prepwork to cast Transfiguration, while Luna just needs to spend a few points of Essence (which she continuously regenerates just by existing)

Luna's purview isn't spirit though, she can't do any of that. She can mimic Transfiguration but there more like rapid fire compared to the mages nuclear bomb.

I'm fine with Archmages working hard to beat gods, but once transfiguration is cast its so easy.

I think the issue here is that "Spirit" just seems so much more powerful than "Change", especially when it can literally nerf Luna to make her defenses nearly useless, by targeting her indirectly.

None of what you said makes any sense.

She has Transfiguration. Mages also have Transfiguration. Luna can do Transfiguration on anything conceptually related to "Change" (or "Madness", or "The Moon", or any of her other purviews), just like the Archmaster can do anything covered under Spirit. She can do the same tier of effects on a different purview.